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 2014-10-16 11:25 AM in reply to: TriMike |
 1502   Katy, Texas |  Subject: RE: swim kickOriginally posted by TriMike Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike Why are you bringing up kicking on thread about coaching technique?? Just kidding.... I would just ask what your driver is. It sounds like this question was prompted by the difference in pace between your freestyle and kicking...but to me, that's not a good metric to take action on. Are your satisfied with your overall times? Have you had diminishing returns in the pool that you are trying to turn around? If your current workout is working, then I wouldn't worry about the relative difference between your kick times and your freestyle times. In a triathlon, your freestyle time is all that matters. Originally posted by Stuartap Take this advice with the caveat that most people will disagree with me but this worked great for me. I was a swimmer in HS & college and this was the way we always did kick drills. More accurately, the only way the freestyle swimmers ever did kick drills. Instead of using a kick board do your drills on your back with your hand extended fully over your head. Most people find it easier if they lock their thumbs. The rationale behind this is on your back the kick tends to be much shorter. Dropping your legs while on your back will fell very unnatural. You will tend to keep your legs higher and drive the feet upward in shorter more powerful kicks. I have posted this suggestion before and I usually get a lot of negative comments, generally from people who have never tried it. My suggestion is give it a try and see if it works for you. If it does great. if not, you wasted a few hundred yards of swimming. Good luck.
Lots of good discussion on freestyle only vs. mixing in other swim disciplines, however I'm still wondering about my initial question when I revived this thread. That being, should my pull sets be very close in pace to my regular freestyle? If not, what should I work on to fix my leg posture in the water as I'm guessing I'm "dragging" etc... I'm also interested in better understanding the above drill if I choose to continue with kick drills. 1) On my back with my arms extended straight (you mention hand), thumbs locked (in a pointing position)? 2) Do you recommend doing shorter sets of these, similar to the short kickboard set distances? I'm in the category of adult onset swimmer, limited time and therefore likely to mainly do freestyle in the pool... Thanks.
No, actually my initial post started out explaining I do drills within sets that involve kicking and pulling... Since I time everything, I've noticed when I do pull drills those times are close to my freestyle time and I'm wondering if this is normal or not...If not, then that tells me my posture must somehow be causing my legs to drag (during freestyle)... OR I'm not kicking quite hard enough to "plane out"???
If your regular freestyle times are faster than your pull only times, then you're getting some benefit from kicking, but just not much. So I wouldn't say that they are dragging, because they are causing you to move faster than when you're not using them. I think the best thing to do would be to get a video of your stroke from the side (preferably underwater) and it should become really clear. Once you define the problem, you can find drills to fix it. I personally don't use my legs much at all unless I am sprinting. Even then I don't think they help much because the times I have done pull drills (on rare occasions) I'm not much slower than when I do kick. The thing is, I really didn't see that as an issue, I just figured I didn't use my legs much, but in the grander scheme of things, I'm happy with my speed and seeing improvement, so I never gave it anymore thought. That was where my original post was going. |
| 2014-10-16 12:08 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Extreme Veteran 1234  West Michigan | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike If your regular freestyle times are faster than your pull only times, then you're getting some benefit from kicking, but just not much. So I wouldn't say that they are dragging, because they are causing you to move faster than when you're not using them. I think the best thing to do would be to get a video of your stroke from the side (preferably underwater) and it should become really clear. Once you define the problem, you can find drills to fix it. I personally don't use my legs much at all unless I am sprinting. Even then I don't think they help much because the times I have done pull drills (on rare occasions) I'm not much slower than when I do kick. The thing is, I really didn't see that as an issue, I just figured I didn't use my legs much, but in the grander scheme of things, I'm happy with my speed and seeing improvement, so I never gave it anymore thought. That was where my original post was going. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike Why are you bringing up kicking on thread about coaching technique?? Just kidding.... I would just ask what your driver is. It sounds like this question was prompted by the difference in pace between your freestyle and kicking...but to me, that's not a good metric to take action on. Are your satisfied with your overall times? Have you had diminishing returns in the pool that you are trying to turn around? If your current workout is working, then I wouldn't worry about the relative difference between your kick times and your freestyle times. In a triathlon, your freestyle time is all that matters. Originally posted by Stuartap Take this advice with the caveat that most people will disagree with me but this worked great for me. I was a swimmer in HS & college and this was the way we always did kick drills. More accurately, the only way the freestyle swimmers ever did kick drills. Instead of using a kick board do your drills on your back with your hand extended fully over your head. Most people find it easier if they lock their thumbs. The rationale behind this is on your back the kick tends to be much shorter. Dropping your legs while on your back will fell very unnatural. You will tend to keep your legs higher and drive the feet upward in shorter more powerful kicks. I have posted this suggestion before and I usually get a lot of negative comments, generally from people who have never tried it. My suggestion is give it a try and see if it works for you. If it does great. if not, you wasted a few hundred yards of swimming. Good luck.
Lots of good discussion on freestyle only vs. mixing in other swim disciplines, however I'm still wondering about my initial question when I revived this thread. That being, should my pull sets be very close in pace to my regular freestyle? If not, what should I work on to fix my leg posture in the water as I'm guessing I'm "dragging" etc... I'm also interested in better understanding the above drill if I choose to continue with kick drills. 1) On my back with my arms extended straight (you mention hand), thumbs locked (in a pointing position)? 2) Do you recommend doing shorter sets of these, similar to the short kickboard set distances? I'm in the category of adult onset swimmer, limited time and therefore likely to mainly do freestyle in the pool... Thanks.
No, actually my initial post started out explaining I do drills within sets that involve kicking and pulling... Since I time everything, I've noticed when I do pull drills those times are close to my freestyle time and I'm wondering if this is normal or not...If not, then that tells me my posture must somehow be causing my legs to drag (during freestyle)... OR I'm not kicking quite hard enough to "plane out"???
I would like to do this, just need to find someone with an underwater camera... To your point, I am technically faster with full freestyle but the time is almost negligible and since I'm technically burning extra calories to move my legs I wanted to understand 1) if this is normal and 2) if there wasn't something I could/should be doing position-wise that would give me some benefit... Thanks for your feedback... As you pointed out earlier, there's much more interest in debating broad topics like swim disciplines and coaching specificity... Kind of like when someone posts a comment or question about using resistance training for specific muscle groups used in one (or more) of the three disciplines... Rather than get a discussion going about the post it devolves into arguing over weight training vs. more "swim bike run".... |
| 2014-10-16 12:27 PM in reply to: TriMike |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by TriMike Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike If your regular freestyle times are faster than your pull only times, then you're getting some benefit from kicking, but just not much. So I wouldn't say that they are dragging, because they are causing you to move faster than when you're not using them. I think the best thing to do would be to get a video of your stroke from the side (preferably underwater) and it should become really clear. Once you define the problem, you can find drills to fix it. I personally don't use my legs much at all unless I am sprinting. Even then I don't think they help much because the times I have done pull drills (on rare occasions) I'm not much slower than when I do kick. The thing is, I really didn't see that as an issue, I just figured I didn't use my legs much, but in the grander scheme of things, I'm happy with my speed and seeing improvement, so I never gave it anymore thought. That was where my original post was going. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike Why are you bringing up kicking on thread about coaching technique?? Just kidding.... I would just ask what your driver is. It sounds like this question was prompted by the difference in pace between your freestyle and kicking...but to me, that's not a good metric to take action on. Are your satisfied with your overall times? Have you had diminishing returns in the pool that you are trying to turn around? If your current workout is working, then I wouldn't worry about the relative difference between your kick times and your freestyle times. In a triathlon, your freestyle time is all that matters. Originally posted by Stuartap Take this advice with the caveat that most people will disagree with me but this worked great for me. I was a swimmer in HS & college and this was the way we always did kick drills. More accurately, the only way the freestyle swimmers ever did kick drills. Instead of using a kick board do your drills on your back with your hand extended fully over your head. Most people find it easier if they lock their thumbs. The rationale behind this is on your back the kick tends to be much shorter. Dropping your legs while on your back will fell very unnatural. You will tend to keep your legs higher and drive the feet upward in shorter more powerful kicks. I have posted this suggestion before and I usually get a lot of negative comments, generally from people who have never tried it. My suggestion is give it a try and see if it works for you. If it does great. if not, you wasted a few hundred yards of swimming. Good luck.
Lots of good discussion on freestyle only vs. mixing in other swim disciplines, however I'm still wondering about my initial question when I revived this thread. That being, should my pull sets be very close in pace to my regular freestyle? If not, what should I work on to fix my leg posture in the water as I'm guessing I'm "dragging" etc... I'm also interested in better understanding the above drill if I choose to continue with kick drills. 1) On my back with my arms extended straight (you mention hand), thumbs locked (in a pointing position)? 2) Do you recommend doing shorter sets of these, similar to the short kickboard set distances? I'm in the category of adult onset swimmer, limited time and therefore likely to mainly do freestyle in the pool... Thanks.
No, actually my initial post started out explaining I do drills within sets that involve kicking and pulling... Since I time everything, I've noticed when I do pull drills those times are close to my freestyle time and I'm wondering if this is normal or not...If not, then that tells me my posture must somehow be causing my legs to drag (during freestyle)... OR I'm not kicking quite hard enough to "plane out"???
I would like to do this, just need to find someone with an underwater camera... To your point, I am technically faster with full freestyle but the time is almost negligible and since I'm technically burning extra calories to move my legs I wanted to understand 1) if this is normal and 2) if there wasn't something I could/should be doing position-wise that would give me some benefit... Thanks for your feedback... As you pointed out earlier, there's much more interest in debating broad topics like swim disciplines and coaching specificity... Kind of like when someone posts a comment or question about using resistance training for specific muscle groups used in one (or more) of the three disciplines... Rather than get a discussion going about the post it devolves into arguing over weight training vs. more "swim bike run".... I think you and I are in the same boat, but just looking at it differently. I see my legs as just sort of there, and if they can take care of themselves (i.e. move enough that I'm not slower not moving them at all) then I consider it a net zero situation and move on. I see what you're saying about the calorie burn. The amount I move my legs under normal swimming though, I can't imagine that it's much calorie burn. Now talk about things that may open a can of worms, I dread even bringing this up but....in my head, I want to "save" my legs for the other two "legs" of the triathlon, so I purposely don't use them too much. I don't think the extra propulsion you'd get from kicking would outweigh the energy loss and muscle fatigue. i.e. you're legs are much more efficient in running and biking so best use them there and just go for net zero in the water. Another reason to shave your legs too...limit the drag of the dead weight even more. So that's two "hot topic" items for a tangent...shaving and saving your legs...let's see where this goes. |
| 2014-10-16 12:33 PM in reply to: TriMike |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by TriMike Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike If your regular freestyle times are faster than your pull only times, then you're getting some benefit from kicking, but just not much. So I wouldn't say that they are dragging, because they are causing you to move faster than when you're not using them. I think the best thing to do would be to get a video of your stroke from the side (preferably underwater) and it should become really clear. Once you define the problem, you can find drills to fix it. I personally don't use my legs much at all unless I am sprinting. Even then I don't think they help much because the times I have done pull drills (on rare occasions) I'm not much slower than when I do kick. The thing is, I really didn't see that as an issue, I just figured I didn't use my legs much, but in the grander scheme of things, I'm happy with my speed and seeing improvement, so I never gave it anymore thought. That was where my original post was going. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike Why are you bringing up kicking on thread about coaching technique?? Just kidding.... I would just ask what your driver is. It sounds like this question was prompted by the difference in pace between your freestyle and kicking...but to me, that's not a good metric to take action on. Are your satisfied with your overall times? Have you had diminishing returns in the pool that you are trying to turn around? If your current workout is working, then I wouldn't worry about the relative difference between your kick times and your freestyle times. In a triathlon, your freestyle time is all that matters. Originally posted by Stuartap Take this advice with the caveat that most people will disagree with me but this worked great for me. I was a swimmer in HS & college and this was the way we always did kick drills. More accurately, the only way the freestyle swimmers ever did kick drills. Instead of using a kick board do your drills on your back with your hand extended fully over your head. Most people find it easier if they lock their thumbs. The rationale behind this is on your back the kick tends to be much shorter. Dropping your legs while on your back will fell very unnatural. You will tend to keep your legs higher and drive the feet upward in shorter more powerful kicks. I have posted this suggestion before and I usually get a lot of negative comments, generally from people who have never tried it. My suggestion is give it a try and see if it works for you. If it does great. if not, you wasted a few hundred yards of swimming. Good luck.
Lots of good discussion on freestyle only vs. mixing in other swim disciplines, however I'm still wondering about my initial question when I revived this thread. That being, should my pull sets be very close in pace to my regular freestyle? If not, what should I work on to fix my leg posture in the water as I'm guessing I'm "dragging" etc... I'm also interested in better understanding the above drill if I choose to continue with kick drills. 1) On my back with my arms extended straight (you mention hand), thumbs locked (in a pointing position)? 2) Do you recommend doing shorter sets of these, similar to the short kickboard set distances? I'm in the category of adult onset swimmer, limited time and therefore likely to mainly do freestyle in the pool... Thanks.
No, actually my initial post started out explaining I do drills within sets that involve kicking and pulling... Since I time everything, I've noticed when I do pull drills those times are close to my freestyle time and I'm wondering if this is normal or not...If not, then that tells me my posture must somehow be causing my legs to drag (during freestyle)... OR I'm not kicking quite hard enough to "plane out"???
I would like to do this, just need to find someone with an underwater camera... To your point, I am technically faster with full freestyle but the time is almost negligible and since I'm technically burning extra calories to move my legs I wanted to understand 1) if this is normal and 2) if there wasn't something I could/should be doing position-wise that would give me some benefit... Thanks for your feedback... As you pointed out earlier, there's much more interest in debating broad topics like swim disciplines and coaching specificity... Kind of like when someone posts a comment or question about using resistance training for specific muscle groups used in one (or more) of the three disciplines... Rather than get a discussion going about the post it devolves into arguing over weight training vs. more "swim bike run".... http://www.walmart.com/ip/Vivitar-DVR787BLKKITWM/29531770 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yubBFeI1WyU |
| 2014-10-16 12:42 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Extreme Veteran 1234 West Michigan | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike I think you and I are in the same boat, but just looking at it differently. I see my legs as just sort of there, and if they can take care of themselves (i.e. move enough that I'm not slower not moving them at all) then I consider it a net zero situation and move on. I see what you're saying about the calorie burn. The amount I move my legs under normal swimming though, I can't imagine that it's much calorie burn. Now talk about things that may open a can of worms, I dread even bringing this up but....in my head, I want to "save" my legs for the other two "legs" of the triathlon, so I purposely don't use them too much. I don't think the extra propulsion you'd get from kicking would outweigh the energy loss and muscle fatigue. i.e. you're legs are much more efficient in running and biking so best use them there and just go for net zero in the water. Another reason to shave your legs too...limit the drag of the dead weight even more. So that's two "hot topic" items for a tangent...shaving and saving your legs...let's see where this goes. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike If your regular freestyle times are faster than your pull only times, then you're getting some benefit from kicking, but just not much. So I wouldn't say that they are dragging, because they are causing you to move faster than when you're not using them. I think the best thing to do would be to get a video of your stroke from the side (preferably underwater) and it should become really clear. Once you define the problem, you can find drills to fix it. I personally don't use my legs much at all unless I am sprinting. Even then I don't think they help much because the times I have done pull drills (on rare occasions) I'm not much slower than when I do kick. The thing is, I really didn't see that as an issue, I just figured I didn't use my legs much, but in the grander scheme of things, I'm happy with my speed and seeing improvement, so I never gave it anymore thought. That was where my original post was going. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by TriMike Why are you bringing up kicking on thread about coaching technique?? Just kidding.... I would just ask what your driver is. It sounds like this question was prompted by the difference in pace between your freestyle and kicking...but to me, that's not a good metric to take action on. Are your satisfied with your overall times? Have you had diminishing returns in the pool that you are trying to turn around? If your current workout is working, then I wouldn't worry about the relative difference between your kick times and your freestyle times. In a triathlon, your freestyle time is all that matters. Originally posted by Stuartap Take this advice with the caveat that most people will disagree with me but this worked great for me. I was a swimmer in HS & college and this was the way we always did kick drills. More accurately, the only way the freestyle swimmers ever did kick drills. Instead of using a kick board do your drills on your back with your hand extended fully over your head. Most people find it easier if they lock their thumbs. The rationale behind this is on your back the kick tends to be much shorter. Dropping your legs while on your back will fell very unnatural. You will tend to keep your legs higher and drive the feet upward in shorter more powerful kicks. I have posted this suggestion before and I usually get a lot of negative comments, generally from people who have never tried it. My suggestion is give it a try and see if it works for you. If it does great. if not, you wasted a few hundred yards of swimming. Good luck.
Lots of good discussion on freestyle only vs. mixing in other swim disciplines, however I'm still wondering about my initial question when I revived this thread. That being, should my pull sets be very close in pace to my regular freestyle? If not, what should I work on to fix my leg posture in the water as I'm guessing I'm "dragging" etc... I'm also interested in better understanding the above drill if I choose to continue with kick drills. 1) On my back with my arms extended straight (you mention hand), thumbs locked (in a pointing position)? 2) Do you recommend doing shorter sets of these, similar to the short kickboard set distances? I'm in the category of adult onset swimmer, limited time and therefore likely to mainly do freestyle in the pool... Thanks.
No, actually my initial post started out explaining I do drills within sets that involve kicking and pulling... Since I time everything, I've noticed when I do pull drills those times are close to my freestyle time and I'm wondering if this is normal or not...If not, then that tells me my posture must somehow be causing my legs to drag (during freestyle)... OR I'm not kicking quite hard enough to "plane out"???
I would like to do this, just need to find someone with an underwater camera... To your point, I am technically faster with full freestyle but the time is almost negligible and since I'm technically burning extra calories to move my legs I wanted to understand 1) if this is normal and 2) if there wasn't something I could/should be doing position-wise that would give me some benefit... Thanks for your feedback... As you pointed out earlier, there's much more interest in debating broad topics like swim disciplines and coaching specificity... Kind of like when someone posts a comment or question about using resistance training for specific muscle groups used in one (or more) of the three disciplines... Rather than get a discussion going about the post it devolves into arguing over weight training vs. more "swim bike run"....
I agree with this and it's precisely why I've been pestering about information because IF I kick harder I can feel my calorie burn meter going off the charts... Then I watch the underwater cameras at an IM and it looks like the pros are kicking to beat hell so where should I be?? I was really wanting to verify that there weren't some "rules of thumb" for posturing that wouldn't plane me out more even if I kick at the same rate... For example for pull drills I was taught to push my chest down more than normal in order to help elevate the legs... So when I'm doing regular freestyle I've tried to incorporate this too but it doesn't reflect anywhere in my times... All the challenges with being an adult on-set swimmer trying to self coach... As for saving your legs for the bike and run, I actually think you're on the right track even if you're saving your legs for future power draw and I'm saving them from the caloric expenditure.... Thanks for the tip on the camera too... |
| 2014-10-16 12:42 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: swim kick +1 on the analysis of some sort. Have someone look at it either in person or the video. I've asked around about the swim/pull relationship before never really got much of an answer simply because it seems there isn't one. Or rather, that's not really the approach to take. Need to have the stroke looked at to see what's going on as opposed to plugging something into a numerical relationship. |
| 2014-10-16 1:17 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Extreme Veteran 1234 West Michigan | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by brigby1 +1 on the analysis of some sort. Have someone look at it either in person or the video. I've asked around about the swim/pull relationship before never really got much of an answer simply because it seems there isn't one. Or rather, that's not really the approach to take. Need to have the stroke looked at to see what's going on as opposed to plugging something into a numerical relationship. It's ironic, I was assuming there would be an avalanche of tips (and some debate) and I'd get to sort through what worked for me and what didn't etc...
|
| 2014-10-16 1:51 PM in reply to: TriMike |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by TriMike Originally posted by brigby1 +1 on the analysis of some sort. Have someone look at it either in person or the video. I've asked around about the swim/pull relationship before never really got much of an answer simply because it seems there isn't one. Or rather, that's not really the approach to take. Need to have the stroke looked at to see what's going on as opposed to plugging something into a numerical relationship. It's ironic, I was assuming there would be an avalanche of tips (and some debate) and I'd get to sort through what worked for me and what didn't etc...
There was a certain amount of noise so to be honest I am not sure what the topic is and isn't any more. But.....this is my belief. I am not a great swimmer. (1:10/100m scm, 23m 1500 scm, 31m HIM) I tried to swim more this year. I set a goal to qualify for worlds masters that were in my home town. If it had not been for that, I probably would not have. I respect the opinion that kicking has value in propulsion, but the overwhelming majority of competent people Jonnyo, Joel Filiol, Bo.....all say the same thing. It more for form than propulsion, so I believe it. I used to be able to swim faster with a pull buoy than without. This led me to believe body position was a big part of the culprit. The things that worked for me were engaging my core, really tightening it up when swimming. Adventurebear suggested head position. This helped a bit. Pushing down during the pull also impacted my body position. I corrected that I simply do 10 to 16 x 100m and I try things and see the impact. I swim in the same lane as lady that is a world class open water swimmer. She got a 3rd position at worlds this summer. She spend a certain amount of time behind me as she laps me on a regular basis. She tells me my "rear" has a tendency to wander. Asked if kicking would solve this, she hesitated and told me I had to work more on my core. But kick sets would help correct this, if done properly. She told me to stop kicking with a board and more with a pull buoy well stretched out and eventually with nothing. I feel a big difference in core engagement. It's hard. She spends a lot of time kicking on her back as suggested previously. So I probably did not get the topic properly, but for me, back to a comment Bo made in a previous thread, the kick is more for position than propulsion. Working with a band probably does as much to correct this than kick sets. I also spoke to a few swim coaches about why they kick so much. One very candid answer was "if I made them do more freestyle, their arms would fall off". If you are only doing 2000m per practice, this is not the issue.. In another thread, TJ, another great swimmer talked about the value of things like breastroke kicking. Not for propulsion of freestyle swimming, but to round out strength imbalances, caused by run and bike. I think i understood this properly. This has been my personal experience this year. Again, I don't pretend to be a big swim connaisseur. |
| 2014-10-16 2:36 PM in reply to: marcag |
Extreme Veteran 1234 West Michigan | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by TriMike There was a certain amount of noise so to be honest I am not sure what the topic is and isn't any more. But.....this is my belief. I am not a great swimmer. (1:10/100m scm, 23m 1500 scm, 31m HIM) I tried to swim more this year. I set a goal to qualify for worlds masters that were in my home town. If it had not been for that, I probably would not have. I respect the opinion that kicking has value in propulsion, but the overwhelming majority of competent people Jonnyo, Joel Filiol, Bo.....all say the same thing. It more for form than propulsion, so I believe it. I used to be able to swim faster with a pull buoy than without. This led me to believe body position was a big part of the culprit. The things that worked for me were engaging my core, really tightening it up when swimming. Adventurebear suggested head position. This helped a bit. Pushing down during the pull also impacted my body position. I corrected that I simply do 10 to 16 x 100m and I try things and see the impact. I swim in the same lane as lady that is a world class open water swimmer. She got a 3rd position at worlds this summer. She spend a certain amount of time behind me as she laps me on a regular basis. She tells me my "rear" has a tendency to wander. Asked if kicking would solve this, she hesitated and told me I had to work more on my core. But kick sets would help correct this, if done properly. She told me to stop kicking with a board and more with a pull buoy well stretched out and eventually with nothing. I feel a big difference in core engagement. It's hard. She spends a lot of time kicking on her back as suggested previously. So I probably did not get the topic properly, but for me, back to a comment Bo made in a previous thread, the kick is more for position than propulsion. Working with a band probably does as much to correct this than kick sets. I also spoke to a few swim coaches about why they kick so much. One very candid answer was "if I made them do more freestyle, their arms would fall off". If you are only doing 2000m per practice, this is not the issue.. In another thread, TJ, another great swimmer talked about the value of things like breastroke kicking. Not for propulsion of freestyle swimming, but to round out strength imbalances, caused by run and bike. I think i understood this properly. This has been my personal experience this year. Again, I don't pretend to be a big swim connaisseur. Originally posted by brigby1 +1 on the analysis of some sort. Have someone look at it either in person or the video. I've asked around about the swim/pull relationship before never really got much of an answer simply because it seems there isn't one. Or rather, that's not really the approach to take. Need to have the stroke looked at to see what's going on as opposed to plugging something into a numerical relationship. It's ironic, I was assuming there would be an avalanche of tips (and some debate) and I'd get to sort through what worked for me and what didn't etc...
Based on your times you're way faster than me so I value your input. I need a little clarification on a few items: *) Regarding engaging your core, "really tightening it up when swimming", what I'm imagining is "sucking it in", "bracing for a punch" type ab contraction. Am I on the right path there? *) Regarding head position. Should I be looking straight down at the bottom or split the difference between looking at the bottom and looking ahead, alternate between the two etc.? In open water I do my spotting every 3rd or fourth breath so if I should have my head more down that would be fine. *) I don't have pull buoys and my pool has what I call water dumbbells and kick boards to choose from....however the dumbbells would plow water more than a buoy or a kick board I'm thinking... Regarding kick boards or buoys and being "well stretched out", I feel like I should explain how I'm using the kick boards as it sounds similar to what you're saying about the buoy. Not many people use kick boards at my pool (so maybe I've been doing them wrong anyway) and for the few I've seen they are significantly smaller people using their own boards and it looks like they're laying on them floating while they kick...I'm a bigger guy and even using two boards stacked they don't hold me up at all so I've adapted by holding onto them at the wrists with fully extended arms... This causes my head and mouth to be at the water line so I put my face in the water like free or pull sets... Or get a lung full of water regularly... To sum it up, if I were to continue with kicking sets, without having buoys, what are your thoughts on making the boards adapt or just scrap kicking sets where I'm not on my back? *) I'm particularly interested in kicking on my back...My plan for the next time in the pool is to have outstretched arms, aiming myself... A previous post mentioned hand extended however I'm interpreting that to mean arm. Good information, thank you for sharing. |
| 2014-10-16 3:23 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Thanks for saying it. I think a lot of people don't know how accomplished an athlete and coach Jonnyo is. everyone should watch his "top of the week" videos. So there's one guy on this thread that has won (or almost won) an IM or two and has coached a bunch of folks to the same. And weekend warrior types are arguing with him. F'n classic! Just stepping in to say Jonny O's blog video about his secret McDonald's training meal is a classic. Carry on with all your bad selves! |
| 2014-10-16 3:39 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim kick I know who Jon Caron is and disagree with him on certain parts of swim training. Being a great Tri coach and long course triathlete does make one a swim expert. |
| 2014-10-16 3:44 PM in reply to: jonnyo |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim kick And I beat Jeff out of the water at GWN. He does what works for him, and I do what works for me. I am a 2 sport athlete and still race masters swimming. I might even swim at Speedo Westerns this winter. |
| 2014-10-16 3:55 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by TriMikeRegarding engaging your core, "really tightening it up when swimming", what I'm imagining is "sucking it in", "bracing for a punch" type ab contraction. Am I on the right path there? *) Bracing for a punch" is probably the best description. This is probably not the perfect way, although I don't know what the perfect way is. At first I was just trying to get my a$$ up. And one day by coincidence I noticed if I braced it, siucked it in, try to show off my abs :-), boom, 2 secs dropped off per 100m. I suspect real swimmers don't even realize they are dong this, it's just natural. I have to do it consciously. Originally posted by TriMikeRegarding head position. Should I be looking straight down at the bottom or split the difference between looking at the bottom and looking ahead, alternate between the two etc.? In open water I do my spotting every 3rd or fourth breath so if I should have my head more down that would be fine. This is an interesting one. I experimented a lot this summer. I thought it was more a drag thing than position. But I noticed head down made me faster without a wetsuit, but made no difference with a wetsuit. Then it clicked it wasn't drag but rather how head up dropped my hips, which didn't occur with a wetsuit due to bouyancy of the wetsuit. I breath every 6 or 8 strokes (1 arm = 1 stroke). I do try to lift my head as little as possible, just enough to get my eyes above the water. I was looking straight down. It was weird in a lake. The other thing I noticed was sometimes, what felt weird was faster. It's just because I am accustomed to slow :-) Originally posted by TriMike I don't have pull buoys and my pool has what I call water dumbbells and kick boards to choose from....however the dumbbells would plow water more than a buoy or a kick board I'm thinking... Regarding kick boards or buoys and being "well stretched out", I feel like I should explain how I'm using the kick boards as it sounds similar to what you're saying about the buoy. Not many people use kick boards at my pool (so maybe I've been doing them wrong anyway) and for the few I've seen they are significantly smaller people using their own boards and it looks like they're laying on them floating while they kick...I'm a bigger guy and even using two boards stacked they don't hold me up at all so I've adapted by holding onto them at the wrists with fully extended arms... This causes my head and mouth to be at the water line so I put my face in the water like free or pull sets... Or get a lung full of water regularly... To sum it up, if I were to continue with kicking sets, without having buoys, what are your thoughts on making the boards adapt or just scrap kicking sets where I'm not on my back? *) I'm particularly interested in kicking on my back...My plan for the next time in the pool is to have outstretched arms, aiming myself... A previous post mentioned hand extended however I'm interpreting that to mean arm. Good information, thank you for sharing. I used to kick with a board arms at the top of the board, extended, chest almost on the board, if you can picture that. It was quite relaxing :-) She told me to eventually get rid of the board all together, but I would hate her if I went with nothing at first. She suggested the pully buoy at first, but holding the board at the end (not the top). head in the water while kicking, coming up for air every 6 seconds or so, woudl be equivalent. Eventually phasing out the board. Another masters coach I had a few years ago did not allow us to use boards. I will only do kicking if my workout is greater than say 2500-2700m. I like to do it about 2/3 through the session just to break things up, let the arms recover a little and allowing me to do a bit more after the kicking. I will probably not do more than 10% of the workout. I am starting to use a band more as I believe this probably has more benefit for me. I am not a big kicking proponent but as a very competent person told me this summer, "it's not going to slow you down", so a few minutes per practice is not a big deal. I am still learning by experimentation. Again if you can do 10 to 16 x 100, see you are holding a steady pace, with say 15s rest, then experiment with things. Do 3, say you are holding 1:34. You then try head position...boom, 1:33, go back, 1:34....you know you are on to something. Sometimes something weird throws you off. For example that head position/wetsuit thing. It through me for a loop because I could not figure out why sometimes it worked. BTW, joining masters for the sake of doing swim meets is a big motivator (for me) PS : I more than welcome the real swim coaches and fishies o tell me what I am doing is wrong. Edited by marcag 2014-10-16 3:58 PM |
| 2014-10-16 4:20 PM in reply to: TriMike |
Member 622 Franklin, TN | Subject: RE: swim kick One of my coaches suggested the following for understanding how it feels to engage the core: Press your tongue against the back of your upper teeth and blow...you'll feel your lower abdomen enage as it should during the swim.
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| 2014-10-16 4:43 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by simpsonbo I know who Jon Caron is and disagree with him on certain parts of swim training. Being a great Tri coach and long course triathlete does make one a swim expert. But it makes him a triathlon expert. Which is very germane to this debate. |
| 2014-10-16 4:53 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: swim kick no worries guys! Bo is a lifelong swimmer and he will have some very good idea of how to develop a swimmer. And if Bo had never touch a pool and now in his adult life was coming to me to learn to swim for his next triathlon...and had big goals.... it is most likely that his training would be very different from what a pure swimmer as done from age 5-18...swimming 6-7-8-9 times a week. To contribute to the kicking subject. One point. Kick at high intensity, perhaps one of the best drill I can give to correct poor form/motion. Short distance and hard repeat. Core will engage naturally without thinking when going near maximum effort. |
| 2014-10-17 7:59 AM in reply to: JoelO |
Extreme Veteran 1234 West Michigan | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by JoelO One of my coaches suggested the following for understanding how it feels to engage the core: Press your tongue against the back of your upper teeth and blow...you'll feel your lower abdomen enage as it should during the swim.
This is a great tip. It puts a "feel" to what engaging the abs means... This morning I worked on engaging the abs and looking straight down, keeping my butt from "wandering" and I felt like I moved through the water quite well... Times were similar, a few hundreds were a second or two faster here or there but overall I'm in about the same place. New question. If I'm limited to 1,600-2,000 yards per swim x 3 per week, what are the set distances I should incorporate over the course of the three swims? For example, I swim M, W and F and typically Wednesday is drill day where I incorporate the pull and kick sets mentioned earlier. Monday I typically alternate between 200's and 100's, 30-45 seconds rest between, then on Friday I do a version of a ladder, typically sets of 100, 200, 300, or occasionally I'll throw in a 400 or 500. On one hand I know I have technique and form things to work on so maybe shorter distances are better then on the other hand I also need to work through the longer set distances from a breathing/fatigue perspective to closer replicate race day....By replicating race day I mean you swim the distance however you can, it's not back and forth in a pool doing sets.. I've been doing tri's for 10+ years, heavily in the sprint/OLY distance, however I have two HIM's in. I've never given swim the appropriate level of training which I've been addressing this year... Thanks all. |
| 2014-10-17 8:08 AM in reply to: TriMike |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by TriMike If I'm limited to 1,600-2,000 yards per swim x 3 per week, what are the set distances I should incorporate over the course of the three swims? There is a book called Swim workouts for triathletes. It provides a good structure if you don't have a coach. It's pretty cheap. While they are for more than 1600-2000 per swim, you can very easily tell where you can cut a little. It's meat and potatoes swimming. Very little drills, a bit of kicking. It's all pace driven. You do a test, get your T pace and everything is based on the T Pace. |
| 2014-10-17 8:30 AM in reply to: marcag |
Extreme Veteran 1234 West Michigan | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by TriMike If I'm limited to 1,600-2,000 yards per swim x 3 per week, what are the set distances I should incorporate over the course of the three swims? There is a book called Swim workouts for triathletes. It provides a good structure if you don't have a coach. It's pretty cheap. While they are for more than 1600-2000 per swim, you can very easily tell where you can cut a little. It's meat and potatoes swimming. Very little drills, a bit of kicking. It's all pace driven. You do a test, get your T pace and everything is based on the T Pace. Thanks for the suggestion, I just ordered it. I read the reviews and most were positive with the exception of a few saying the distances/times were more for an advanced swimmer and the lingo needs to be deciphered however I don't view those as limiters. I like the idea of testing myself to develop a base and work from there... I'll be back... |
| 2014-10-17 2:40 PM in reply to: TriMike |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by TriMike
Based on your times you're way faster than me so I value your input. I need a little clarification on a few items: *) Regarding engaging your core, "really tightening it up when swimming", what I'm imagining is "sucking it in", "bracing for a punch" type ab contraction. Am I on the right path there? It's more of a bracing for a punch (with a slight arch in your back). Think of yourself like an arrow or spear. stiff and straight. Big problem though is that when someone says swim with your core, they immediately think of abs and then eventually the golf swing or baseball bat swing come up. That's not it. Your core is your entire torso, and this includes your back. So, yes, you tighten your abs, but you use your back muscles to move your though the water. Using your core means you rotate to engage the lats. *) Regarding head position. Should I be looking straight down at the bottom or split the difference between looking at the bottom and looking ahead, alternate between the two etc.? In open water I do my spotting every 3rd or fourth breath so if I should have my head more down that would be fine. Stand with your back against a wall. Now, you want 4 points touching the wall at all times. feet, hips, shoulders, head. (notice how your abs tighten slightly when you do this?). That's how you swim. Now, your head position can actually move and still keep the 4 points. If you want to look to the ceiling you can, but you have to crane your neck a little to keep the 4 points. That's how you look forward in the pool. *) I don't have pull buoys and my pool has what I call water dumbbells and kick boards to choose from....however the dumbbells would plow water more than a buoy or a kick board I'm thinking... Regarding kick boards or buoys and being "well stretched out", I feel like I should explain how I'm using the kick boards as it sounds similar to what you're saying about the buoy. Not many people use kick boards at my pool (so maybe I've been doing them wrong anyway) and for the few I've seen they are significantly smaller people using their own boards and it looks like they're laying on them floating while they kick...I'm a bigger guy and even using two boards stacked they don't hold me up at all so I've adapted by holding onto them at the wrists with fully extended arms... This causes my head and mouth to be at the water line so I put my face in the water like free or pull sets... Or get a lung full of water regularly... To sum it up, if I were to continue with kicking sets, without having buoys, what are your thoughts on making the boards adapt or just scrap kicking sets where I'm not on my back? Believe it or not, a kickboard teaches you correct body position. Arms straight, hands wrapped at the end of the board. Should be almost no weight applied to the board. If you are bracing yourself on the board and it's sinking then you are doing it wrong. That position teaches the proper balance. if you can't kick comfortably with arms in/under the water and chin on the surface, then adjust until you can. board should remain on the surface. If the board is 6" under then you are doing it wrong. As I mentioned above, head down doesn't always mean better position. Good swimmers can swim head up freestyle with no kick and still keep their feet at the surface. If you kick on your back don't let your knees break the surface of the water. if they do, you're kicking wrong. *) I'm particularly interested in kicking on my back...My plan for the next time in the pool is to have outstretched arms, aiming myself... A previous post mentioned hand extended however I'm interpreting that to mean arm. Good information, thank you for sharing. see bolded above. Kicking itself as mentioned doesn't add alot directly to propulsion. But it does add a lot indirectly to propulsion. Go for a run with your arms at your side. Then you'll get it. I also want to add (or pile on), that doing the other strokes IS important. Most of you adult onset swimmers have lots of trouble with technique and namely your pull. by learning a little breastroke or fly or back you learn to get a better feel for the water....or feel for how to best leverage that pull. fly breast and free all have essentially the same motion underwater, and while it's super easy to drop your elbow in free, it's not so easy to do that in breast. So you are able to 'feel' that pull. As mentioned above, the other strokes help to balance the muscles of the other disciplines as well. Priformis issues? IT band issues? try some breast kicking or dolphin kick (fly) really works the muscles that often don't get worked. |
| 2014-10-17 3:09 PM in reply to: tjfry |
Extreme Veteran 1234 West Michigan | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by TriMike
Based on your times you're way faster than me so I value your input. I need a little clarification on a few items: *) Regarding engaging your core, "really tightening it up when swimming", what I'm imagining is "sucking it in", "bracing for a punch" type ab contraction. Am I on the right path there? It's more of a bracing for a punch (with a slight arch in your back). Think of yourself like an arrow or spear. stiff and straight. Big problem though is that when someone says swim with your core, they immediately think of abs and then eventually the golf swing or baseball bat swing come up. That's not it. Your core is your entire torso, and this includes your back. So, yes, you tighten your abs, but you use your back muscles to move your though the water. Using your core means you rotate to engage the lats. *) Regarding head position. Should I be looking straight down at the bottom or split the difference between looking at the bottom and looking ahead, alternate between the two etc.? In open water I do my spotting every 3rd or fourth breath so if I should have my head more down that would be fine. Stand with your back against a wall. Now, you want 4 points touching the wall at all times. feet, hips, shoulders, head. (notice how your abs tighten slightly when you do this?). That's how you swim. Now, your head position can actually move and still keep the 4 points. If you want to look to the ceiling you can, but you have to crane your neck a little to keep the 4 points. That's how you look forward in the pool. *) I don't have pull buoys and my pool has what I call water dumbbells and kick boards to choose from....however the dumbbells would plow water more than a buoy or a kick board I'm thinking... Regarding kick boards or buoys and being "well stretched out", I feel like I should explain how I'm using the kick boards as it sounds similar to what you're saying about the buoy. Not many people use kick boards at my pool (so maybe I've been doing them wrong anyway) and for the few I've seen they are significantly smaller people using their own boards and it looks like they're laying on them floating while they kick...I'm a bigger guy and even using two boards stacked they don't hold me up at all so I've adapted by holding onto them at the wrists with fully extended arms... This causes my head and mouth to be at the water line so I put my face in the water like free or pull sets... Or get a lung full of water regularly... To sum it up, if I were to continue with kicking sets, without having buoys, what are your thoughts on making the boards adapt or just scrap kicking sets where I'm not on my back? Believe it or not, a kickboard teaches you correct body position. Arms straight, hands wrapped at the end of the board. Should be almost no weight applied to the board. If you are bracing yourself on the board and it's sinking then you are doing it wrong. That position teaches the proper balance. if you can't kick comfortably with arms in/under the water and chin on the surface, then adjust until you can. board should remain on the surface. If the board is 6" under then you are doing it wrong. As I mentioned above, head down doesn't always mean better position. Good swimmers can swim head up freestyle with no kick and still keep their feet at the surface. If you kick on your back don't let your knees break the surface of the water. if they do, you're kicking wrong. *) I'm particularly interested in kicking on my back...My plan for the next time in the pool is to have outstretched arms, aiming myself... A previous post mentioned hand extended however I'm interpreting that to mean arm. Good information, thank you for sharing. see bolded above. Kicking itself as mentioned doesn't add alot directly to propulsion. But it does add a lot indirectly to propulsion. Go for a run with your arms at your side. Then you'll get it. I also want to add (or pile on), that doing the other strokes IS important. Most of you adult onset swimmers have lots of trouble with technique and namely your pull. by learning a little breastroke or fly or back you learn to get a better feel for the water....or feel for how to best leverage that pull. fly breast and free all have essentially the same motion underwater, and while it's super easy to drop your elbow in free, it's not so easy to do that in breast. So you are able to 'feel' that pull. As mentioned above, the other strokes help to balance the muscles of the other disciplines as well. Priformis issues? IT band issues? try some breast kicking or dolphin kick (fly) really works the muscles that often don't get worked. Wow, great information, thank you. The 4-point wall test is exactly the type of information/tip that resonates with me. If I can get a feel for something then I'm better able to try and replicate it in the water... And by the way, your avatar is one of the coolest I've seen... I've noticed it before in other posts you've made, just never had an opportunity to say so... |
| 2014-10-18 11:53 AM in reply to: #4965119 |
| 111 | Subject: RE: swim kick Glad you are looking at your kick. In my opinion, the kick is the most misunderstood aspect of swimming and the opportunity for the biggest improvement for triathletes/adult onset swimmers. Basically, you want to keep the leg relax, the knee relax, the ankles relaxed and flexible. Kick from your hips and the arc of the movement of foot on the kick should stay inside of about 12 inches. You want to focus on the up kick, which is pressing up on the bottom part of the foot and "grabbing" water after the down beat of the kick. Think about focusing all of the force you are generating on the down beat of the kick right beneath the toes on the top of the foot. Keep your body flat and long on the water with a kick board. You will get better at kicking and you'll find your swimming gets a lot faster and it will be much more efficient. The simplest analogy is teaching someone to swim without kicking would be like teaching someone to run without moving their arms. On side note, triathletes don't need to learn other strokes. They don't have enough time in the water at typically amount of training to get the specificity they need for freestyle. Focus on developing an efficient in freestyle. If you have any other questions, please let me know. Tim |
| 2014-10-19 1:14 PM in reply to: snappingt |
New user 110 | Subject: RE: swim kick Kicking is extremely important, whether you are solely a swimmer or a triathlete. It is the ability to propel yourself for longer periods of time and quicker overall. This comes in handy for the rest of a triathlon as well, since we are basically using our legs for the entire race. So to think of it strictly as improving swim speed is limiting the full scope that it can have on performance. It is true that if you want to improve your run times you need to run, bike to improve bike times, and swim to improve your swim times. But each of these can overall help your performance in each discipline, in my own mind. I happen to have a great kick, from either kick sets galore or my meaty thighs (thanks genetics). With Board: 100yds 1:02 minutes Without on Back: 100yds 58 seconds I HAVE seen improvements in my overall swim times and triathlon times as I improve my kicking, but then again "correlation doesn't always mean causation". |
| 2014-10-19 3:30 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by TheNewBlood Kicking is extremely important, whether you are solely a swimmer or a triathlete. It is the ability to propel yourself for longer periods of time and quicker overall. This comes in handy for the rest of a triathlon as well, since we are basically using our legs for the entire race. So to think of it strictly as improving swim speed is limiting the full scope that it can have on performance. It is true that if you want to improve your run times you need to run, bike to improve bike times, and swim to improve your swim times. But each of these can overall help your performance in each discipline, in my own mind. I happen to have a great kick, from either kick sets galore or my meaty thighs (thanks genetics). With Board: 100yds 1:02 minutes Without on Back: 100yds 58 seconds I HAVE seen improvements in my overall swim times and triathlon times as I improve my kicking, but then again "correlation doesn't always mean causation". I made this point a few months ago regarding the 2-3000 yard kick sets my kid does on a regular basis......so there are at least two of you who do massive kick sets and believe it helps your overall race. Edited by Left Brain 2014-10-19 3:31 PM |
| 2014-10-19 9:37 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
New user 110 | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TheNewBlood Kicking is extremely important, whether you are solely a swimmer or a triathlete. It is the ability to propel yourself for longer periods of time and quicker overall. This comes in handy for the rest of a triathlon as well, since we are basically using our legs for the entire race. So to think of it strictly as improving swim speed is limiting the full scope that it can have on performance. It is true that if you want to improve your run times you need to run, bike to improve bike times, and swim to improve your swim times. But each of these can overall help your performance in each discipline, in my own mind. I happen to have a great kick, from either kick sets galore or my meaty thighs (thanks genetics). With Board: 100yds 1:02 minutes Without on Back: 100yds 58 seconds I HAVE seen improvements in my overall swim times and triathlon times as I improve my kicking, but then again "correlation doesn't always mean causation". I made this point a few months ago regarding the 2-3000 yard kick sets my kid does on a regular basis......so there are at least two of you who do massive kick sets and believe it helps your overall race. Of course! Just like your kid, my coach stresses the importance of kicking (even if he is solely a swim coach). So we end up having a large portion of our total daily yardage dedicated to kicking on certain days, most other kids dread it but I relish in it. I think that kicking is very important for improving times, especially if an athlete is starting to plateau and can not find other ways to decrease times. |
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