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 2014-03-14 9:36 AM |
 11 |  Subject: swim kickMy kick sets are drastically slower than my regular swim sets. I know my kick is by far my week aspect of my swim. Any suggestions on how you sped up your kick sets other than just doing more of it. I don't mind kicking and am doing a lot more of it lately but just curious if there is something that you guys discovered that would help? I've been trying to keep the legs up towards the surface and the feet more flexed. Thanks in advance! |
| 2014-03-14 10:10 AM in reply to: jthorud |
Champion 7036    Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: swim kick The obviously answer is to work on improving your technique. Hard to offer any specific advice without actually seeing what you're doing. Do you have someone knowledgeable you can ask to take a look at your kick for feedback? That or post a video here for the swim experts to look at? Mark
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| 2014-03-14 11:20 AM in reply to: jthorud |
Member 1748   Exton, PA | Subject: RE: swim kick Your kick alone will always be slower then your swim. What kind of times are we talking about? Are you kicking 100yards in 2min? 3 min? 4 min? In the end to kick faster you have to kick more and make sure you technique is correct. |
| 2014-03-14 7:45 PM in reply to: jthorud |
Extreme Veteran 929 , Kobenhavns Kommune | Subject: RE: swim kick Kick is always slower, the kick is not a very efficient for propulsion. I don't know how drastically slower your kick is, but I swim 100m regular freestyle in 1:20, and 50m kick in 1:15. I do short kick sets but kick never make up the bulk of my workout. maybe 1/10th of my workout is devoted to kicking. You can use fins to build strength and spend less time on your kick set. BR |
| 2014-03-14 7:56 PM in reply to: 0 |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: swim kick let me ask you; why do you want to develop strength for kicking? do you think strength is a limiter that keep you from improving? Edited by jonnyo 2014-03-14 7:59 PM |
| 2014-03-14 9:01 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 1055 | Subject: RE: swim kick I haven't done a kick set once this year. But if I did, I'd use fins. Edited by ziggie204 2014-03-14 9:02 PM |
| 2014-03-14 9:13 PM in reply to: jthorud |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: swim kick Take this advice with the caveat that most people will disagree with me but this worked great for me. I was a swimmer in HS & college and this was the way we always did kick drills. More accurately, the only way the freestyle swimmers ever did kick drills. Instead of using a kick board do your drills on your back with your hand extended fully over your head. Most people find it easier if they lock their thumbs. The rationale behind this is on your back the kick tends to be much shorter. Dropping your legs while on your back will fell very unnatural. You will tend to keep your legs higher and drive the feet upward in shorter more powerful kicks. I have posted this suggestion before and I usually get a lot of negative comments, generally from people who have never tried it. My suggestion is give it a try and see if it works for you. If it does great. if not, you wasted a few hundred yards of swimming. Good luck. |
| 2014-03-14 9:30 PM in reply to: Stuartap |
Master 2802 Minnetonka, Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by Stuartap Take this advice with the caveat that most people will disagree with me but this worked great for me. I was a swimmer in HS & college and this was the way we always did kick drills. More accurately, the only way the freestyle swimmers ever did kick drills. Instead of using a kick board do your drills on your back with your hand extended fully over your head. Most people find it easier if they lock their thumbs. The rationale behind this is on your back the kick tends to be much shorter. Dropping your legs while on your back will fell very unnatural. You will tend to keep your legs higher and drive the feet upward in shorter more powerful kicks. I have posted this suggestion before and I usually get a lot of negative comments, generally from people who have never tried it. My suggestion is give it a try and see if it works for you. If it does great. if not, you wasted a few hundred yards of swimming. Good luck. That is what I do for my limited kicking. I have no idea how fast I kick however. I just know that it is way slower than I swim. |
| 2014-03-15 12:01 AM in reply to: Stuartap |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim kick I mix it up with and without a board. If I'm feeling good I can kick 1:30-35/100 (metres) for 5 to 8 reps. |
| 2014-03-15 6:15 AM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: swim kick I concur with what Eric says above. Kicking is a poor mechanism for propulsion in swimming, especially for freestyle. Further, in anything other than a sprint (100 yards or less), not an efficient use of energy for the amount of propulsion provided. In the distance swimming that occurs in Sprints, Oly and longer triathlons kicking is not as much used for propulsion as much as it is used to keep your body in a hydrodynamic position within the water and provide the rotation for proper stroke mechanics and breathing. Honestly, I have kick sets in my workouts but for the most part I look at them as an opportunity to give my shoulders/back a bit of a break during my swim sets. |
| 2014-03-15 7:53 AM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: swim kick Good swimmers would like everyone to kick less. |
| 2014-10-15 11:11 AM in reply to: jthorud |
Extreme Veteran 1234 West Michigan | Subject: RE: swim kick One swim per week I include kick and pull drills within my sets. When I do pull drills my time is very close to my regular freestyle times per 100 yards. ~2:00 for freestyle, ~ 2:10 for pull drills (I hold a foam dumbbell between my ankles/shins to keep my legs somewhat parallel to the water)......This morning I had one set where my free time was 2:00, my pull time was 2:01... I don't do flip turns, not that it matters when discussing kick drills...It does contribute to my pace per 100 though...I'm not fast obviously and have lots of opportunity for improvement... Based on the time similarities I'm wondering if my legs are acting as anchors as I'm kicking??? What is considered a normal time differential between the free and pull times? Any suggestions on ways to make sure my hip/leg posture is correct to maximize my movement through the water are appreciated. |
| 2014-10-15 11:55 AM in reply to: Stuartap |
| 631 | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by Stuartap Take this advice with the caveat that most people will disagree with me but this worked great for me. I was a swimmer in HS & college and this was the way we always did kick drills. More accurately, the only way the freestyle swimmers ever did kick drills. Instead of using a kick board do your drills on your back with your hand extended fully over your head. Most people find it easier if they lock their thumbs. The rationale behind this is on your back the kick tends to be much shorter. Dropping your legs while on your back will fell very unnatural. You will tend to keep your legs higher and drive the feet upward in shorter more powerful kicks. I have posted this suggestion before and I usually get a lot of negative comments, generally from people who have never tried it. My suggestion is give it a try and see if it works for you. If it does great. if not, you wasted a few hundred yards of swimming. Good luck. I was not a swimmer but I have sat thru a lot of youth swim team practices (both Rec league ans USA club). For the most part the kick board is never used for freestyle kick drills. They seem to only use the kick board for fly and breast. Even then the board is used sparingly. To me it makes sense, free and back requires you body to rotate the kick board makes this harder. |
| 2014-10-15 1:24 PM in reply to: jthorud |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swim kick I personally never do kick drills, or anything but freestyle, for that matter. No drills, no paddles, no fins, no backstroke, no breast stroke, no fly...just sets of freestyle. Probably not for everyone (or anyone) but I did have a four time gold medalist tell me I have a "really awesome stroke" this week during my workout .  |
| 2014-10-15 1:35 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim kick To each his own. Out of 3 swims for me 1 is usually a freestyle workout, 1 is a Fly/IM, the 3rd Fly/Free. I may still have some freestyle sets in the IM session but the main set will be IM focused. I always squeeze backstroke into my warm up to help loosen my shoulders. Swimming nothing but freestyle is boring firstly and secondly having a good feel for the other strokes is beneficial in my opinion. Last nights main set... 8x75m @1.15 goal tempo 16.75/25m 100 easy repeat with goal tempo of 16.60/25m Hit at or close to goal pace on all. The ones that I missed were off by .3 or so per 25. |
| 2014-10-15 1:41 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by simpsonbo To each his own. Out of 3 swims for me 1 is usually a freestyle workout, 1 is a Fly/IM, the 3rd Fly/Free. I may still have some freestyle sets in the IM session but the main set will be IM focused. I always squeeze backstroke into my warm up to help loosen my shoulders. Swimming nothing but freestyle is boring firstly and secondly having a good feel for the other strokes is beneficial in my opinion. Last nights main set... 8x75m @1.15 goal tempo 16.75/25m 100 easy repeat with goal tempo of 16.60/25m Hit at or close to goal pace on all. The ones that I missed were off by .3 or so per 25. if you have a kid or adult that can swim 5-6X a week..sure, do some back/fly/breast. But as most triathlete swim perhaps 2000-3000m 2 or 3 times a week....or less, it s a wise idea to stick to freestyle to get the most out of them. it s a matter of specificity and the best bang for your bucks. |
| 2014-10-15 1:56 PM in reply to: jonnyo |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by jonnyo Originally posted by simpsonbo To each his own. Out of 3 swims for me 1 is usually a freestyle workout, 1 is a Fly/IM, the 3rd Fly/Free. I may still have some freestyle sets in the IM session but the main set will be IM focused. I always squeeze backstroke into my warm up to help loosen my shoulders. Swimming nothing but freestyle is boring firstly and secondly having a good feel for the other strokes is beneficial in my opinion. Last nights main set... 8x75m @1.15 goal tempo 16.75/25m 100 easy repeat with goal tempo of 16.60/25m Hit at or close to goal pace on all. The ones that I missed were off by .3 or so per 25. if you have a kid or adult that can swim 5-6X a week..sure, do some back/fly/breast. But as most triathlete swim perhaps 2000-3000m 2 or 3 times a week....or less, it s a wise idea to stick to freestyle to get the most out of them. it s a matter of specificity and the best bang for your bucks. It's a preference thing for me and also a time issue as stated above. I want to spend as much time as I can on freestyle. Are there indirect benefits to freestyle from other strokes and drills...I'm certain there are, but I want to get the most bang for my buck and I don't know where I'd fit that in. My workout on Monday was (the pool was LCM): 2 x 500 meters on 9 minutes (goal pace of 1:30/100m which I met for both) 12 x 100 meters on 2 minutes (all completed between 1:13 to 1:22*) 100 meters easy 500 meter swim moderate pace I couldn't see doing any less than this in freestyle work, but I don't have time to do much more since I had a 3 mile run afterward. That's where the other strokes and drills just won't fit in, nor do I see the benefit in removing some of the above to fit them in. I just don't think the incremental benefit would be worth it. *As an embarrassing side note: Normally I start at around 1:20 pace and work my way down, but this time was the opposite unfortunately. I went to a different pool and as I mentioned the dude who owns it/runs it was an Olympic swimmer. I wasn't expecting him to be there, or decide to stand at the end of my lane with a stop watch my entire workout, so I went out way too hard (especially after hearing all the compliments on my stroke) and ended up feeling like a d-bag when I crashed and was chugging to do the last couple at 1:20  . |
| 2014-10-15 2:18 PM in reply to: jonnyo |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim kick I would disagree in that it depends on the background of the athlete and the type of non free sets being done. I know the more Fly I swim the fitter I am in the water. |
| 2014-10-15 2:18 PM in reply to: jonnyo |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim kick I would disagree in that it depends on the background of the athlete and the type of non free sets being done. I know the more Fly I swim the fitter I am in the water. |
| 2014-10-15 2:21 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim kick Dr. Gary Hall Sr by chance? |
| 2014-10-15 2:26 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swim kick Jon Olsen. He runs a pool down here in the Keys. |
| 2014-10-15 3:33 PM in reply to: 0 |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: swim kick one word for you..... Specificity don't get fool by the old ''swimming myth'' you been raise with. Science tells us clearly what matter in performance. there is a reason runners don't need to lean to dance or run backword to run fast....they stick to specificity and run. Edited by jonnyo 2014-10-15 3:36 PM |
| 2014-10-15 3:48 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by jonnyo one word for you..... Specificity don't get fool by the old ''swimming myth'' you been raise with. Science tells us clearly what matter in performance. there is a reason runners don't need to lean to dance or run backword to run fast....they stick to specificity and run. OK.....tonight when I go to my kid's swim club, where currently 3 kids with Olympic qualifying times will be, along with their coaches, one a former Olympian and the other the coach of numerous national champions....both USA level 5 coaches.....I'm going to tell both of them that all of the IM sets they have the kids do are really detrimental to their overall swimming speed, especially in the freestyle. I will tell them that their freestylers should only be doing freestyle, the back strokers only backstroke, etc. due to specificity. I'm going to tell them I read it on BT so I know it's true......there is no way their freestylers can get faster doing those other strokes. Furthermore, I'm going to tell them that it's ridiculous that they have coached my kid this way for 3 years and brought him from a 1:40 100 and back of pack swimmer in DL racing to a :48 100 freestyle and nearly first out of the water when they clearly coould have done more specific freestyle training and had him much faster by now. I'm going to tell them that their coaching is a "swimming myth" and demand a refund. Edited by Left Brain 2014-10-15 3:48 PM |
| 2014-10-15 3:59 PM in reply to: jonnyo |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: swim kick Originally posted by jonnyo there is a reason runners don't need to lean to dance Sorry man, you are wrong on this one http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/lolo-jones-makes-dancing-... |
| 2014-10-15 4:19 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim kick I knew many swimmers who had top events in the same distance over 2 or 3 strokes.... ie 100 Fly/Bk/Fr or 200 Fly/Free. Hell Fly was my top stroke maybe I should have skipped all the distance free training  Maybe what Jonny is saying might hold water with some adult onset swimmers with limited time. Maybe I should have a Vasa showdown with one of his athletes who only trains free. |
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