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Base Period Expectations (Page 2)
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 2014-03-25 7:37 AM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Regular  5477    LHOTP |  Subject: RE: Base Period ExpectationsOriginally posted by AdventureBear Originally posted by jonnyo not a big fan of concept of base.... build, etc. lots of words to confuse people and every single coach as a different definition. Not my cup of tee... in off season...i focus on non specific aspect with my athletes...and as races comes around...we get very specific. Every single day contribute to there aerobic base.... every single day of the year...racing included... Nice to hear this! So to the OP, confused yet? The nice thing is that if you FOLLOW FRIEL"S PLAN, you'll probably do fine and not get hurt. However, you have specific questions that his book apparently isn't able to answer for you, thus...you'll need to choose which pill you want to take. :) OP, sorry your thread got totally highjacked. At least one out of the four coaches who posted tried to answer your question. FWIW, I have never followed a plan and obviously don't know the latest in terminology, but I've been able to do just fine (could I have done better with one, probably), including completing my first HIM last year. In reading Friel, you're ahead of me! I'm sure if you stay the course you will be able to meet your goal of finishing your first HIM! Good luck :)
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| 2014-03-25 7:56 AM in reply to: pashellabarger |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by pashellabarger By "putting in the hours" I mean, should I even care about how far I can go, or should I just concern myself with hitting my training goals bases in prescribed training hours (i.e 14 hrs this week). Training peaks only gives you training hours based on your annual training goals, but doesn't tell you how far you should be able to go in each sport at each benchmark. I've been splitting my time with half spent on the bike, quarter on the run and quarter on the swim. Don't worry about distance. Training load is best measured by a combination of duration and intensity. Distance means nothing, especially on the bike. For example, 1 hour in Z2 is a combination of duration and intensity. You want to gradually increase your training load (duration * intensity). The best plans are the ones that optimize the use of duration and intensity at different points in the training plan. |
| 2014-03-25 10:59 AM in reply to: switch |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by switch Originally posted by AdventureBear Originally posted by jonnyo not a big fan of concept of base.... build, etc. lots of words to confuse people and every single coach as a different definition. Not my cup of tee... in off season...i focus on non specific aspect with my athletes...and as races comes around...we get very specific. Every single day contribute to there aerobic base.... every single day of the year...racing included... Nice to hear this! So to the OP, confused yet? The nice thing is that if you FOLLOW FRIEL"S PLAN, you'll probably do fine and not get hurt. However, you have specific questions that his book apparently isn't able to answer for you, thus...you'll need to choose which pill you want to take.  OP, sorry your thread got totally highjacked. At least one out of the four coaches who posted tried to answer your question. FWIW, I have never followed a plan and obviously don't know the latest in terminology, but I've been able to do just fine (could I have done better with one, probably), including completing my first HIM last year. In reading Friel, you're ahead of me! I'm sure if you stay the course you will be able to meet your goal of finishing your first HIM! Good luck
I wasn't trying to answer the question more as to bring up a very important point about "base" training and I think that was well discussed on. |
| 2014-03-25 11:02 AM in reply to: jonnyo |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by jonnyo not a big fan of concept of base.... build, etc. lots of words to confuse people and every single coach as a different definition. Not my cup of tee... in off season...i focus on non specific aspect with my athletes...and as races comes around...we get very specific. Every single day contribute to there aerobic base.... every single day of the year...racing included... Racing included YOU BET! I think many athletes fail to correlate racing as part of training and try to separate racing from training. Peter Vebrochek (I know I am butchering his name terribly) literally races 20-25 IM's a year and races all year. He trains very little and his races are his training. But it all contributes to his base. He is a good example of the polar opposite of traditional AG athletes that train all year for one IM. Still acquire a massive base just through a different medium. |
| 2014-03-25 11:29 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by jonnyo not a big fan of concept of base.... build, etc. lots of words to confuse people and every single coach as a different definition. Not my cup of tee... in off season...i focus on non specific aspect with my athletes...and as races comes around...we get very specific. Every single day contribute to there aerobic base.... every single day of the year...racing included... Racing included YOU BET! I think many athletes fail to correlate racing as part of training and try to separate racing from training. Peter Vebrochek (I know I am butchering his name terribly) literally races 20-25 IM's a year and races all year. He trains very little and his races are his training. But it all contributes to his base. He is a good example of the polar opposite of traditional AG athletes that train all year for one IM. Still acquire a massive base just through a different medium. I LOVE to race, and would just race if I could (but I need both the workouts during the week for sanity and time on many weekends for family - so I race when I can and as much as I can. I suppose that puts me in the middle of the "poles"). Question: If you race all the time and acquire a good portion (not all, just a high portion) of your training stress that way, can you still "peak" for a given race or a few races within that strategy? Or is it more that if you approach it that way you're participating in all of them but not trying to hammer a few? Just wondering if that's part of why the "traditional AG athletes" you describe approach their season the way they do? Or not… Thoughts? Matt |
| 2014-03-25 11:36 AM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by jonnyo not a big fan of concept of base.... build, etc. lots of words to confuse people and every single coach as a different definition. Not my cup of tee... in off season...i focus on non specific aspect with my athletes...and as races comes around...we get very specific. Every single day contribute to there aerobic base.... every single day of the year...racing included... Racing included YOU BET! I think many athletes fail to correlate racing as part of training and try to separate racing from training. Peter Vebrochek (I know I am butchering his name terribly) literally races 20-25 IM's a year and races all year. He trains very little and his races are his training. But it all contributes to his base. He is a good example of the polar opposite of traditional AG athletes that train all year for one IM. Still acquire a massive base just through a different medium. I LOVE to race, and would just race if I could (but I need both the workouts during the week for sanity and time on many weekends for family - so I race when I can and as much as I can. I suppose that puts me in the middle of the "poles"). Question: If you race all the time and acquire a good portion (not all, just a high portion) of your training stress that way, can you still "peak" for a given race or a few races within that strategy? Or is it more that if you approach it that way you're participating in all of them but not trying to hammer a few? Just wondering if that's part of why the "traditional AG athletes" you describe approach their season the way they do? Or not… Thoughts? Matt You have to build up to handle that stress. "traditional AG" triathletes work 40+ hours a week, have a family, and other commitments. Those too are stresses on the body that delay recovery. This needs to be brought into your training program as well. So if you want to race 15x a summer to increase fitness you need to make sure you can recover as well. Yes you can still peak for races, but you need to be careful in your preparation just as you would with a normal training plan. |
| 2014-03-25 11:56 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 You have to build up to handle that stress. "traditional AG" triathletes work 40+ hours a week, have a family, and other commitments. Those too are stresses on the body that delay recovery. This needs to be brought into your training program as well. So if you want to race 15x a summer to increase fitness you need to make sure you can recover as well. Yes you can still peak for races, but you need to be careful in your preparation just as you would with a normal training plan. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by jonnyo not a big fan of concept of base.... build, etc. lots of words to confuse people and every single coach as a different definition. Not my cup of tee... in off season...i focus on non specific aspect with my athletes...and as races comes around...we get very specific. Every single day contribute to there aerobic base.... every single day of the year...racing included... Racing included YOU BET! I think many athletes fail to correlate racing as part of training and try to separate racing from training. Peter Vebrochek (I know I am butchering his name terribly) literally races 20-25 IM's a year and races all year. He trains very little and his races are his training. But it all contributes to his base. He is a good example of the polar opposite of traditional AG athletes that train all year for one IM. Still acquire a massive base just through a different medium. I LOVE to race, and would just race if I could (but I need both the workouts during the week for sanity and time on many weekends for family - so I race when I can and as much as I can. I suppose that puts me in the middle of the "poles"). Question: If you race all the time and acquire a good portion (not all, just a high portion) of your training stress that way, can you still "peak" for a given race or a few races within that strategy? Or is it more that if you approach it that way you're participating in all of them but not trying to hammer a few? Just wondering if that's part of why the "traditional AG athletes" you describe approach their season the way they do? Or not… Thoughts? Matt We discussed this a while back. I don't think an AG triathlete under normal circumstancves can ever get to the point where they can compete with the folks doing high stress/elite workouts. Even the people I'm around who on on their way to truly elite status play a completely different game with a ton more stress in their routine. You are obviously right, Ben, that you have to build up to that level of stress in your routine, and I think johnny is right on the money that racing is a big part of that. When you consider XC, track, swim season, and triathlon, it's not inconceivable to say that the athletes I'm around race 50-75 times a year in some event or another. My own kid LOVES August because it's Jr. Nationals, AG nationals, and now Worlds.....all that means to him is almost no training sessions and lots of rest...and lots of racing, which is what you point toward with all of the other races/training in the year. I think that AG athletes CAN get to another level, perhaps not elite but surely higher than they are and very competitive.....but once you have that time in......that time with all of those long, slow, deliberate miles (base??).....you have to add stress, and all gains at that point come from increases in stress. The point about stress being timeXintensity is probably a good way to look at it, as long as it's understood that intensity becomes more and more important....especially at sprint and oly distances. |
| 2014-03-25 12:32 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by Left Brain The point about stress being timeXintensity is probably a good way to look at it, as long as it's understood that intensity becomes more and more important....especially at sprint and oly distances. Why do you need to caveat it? Time and intensity (and frequency--though this could be absorbed in 'time', I guess) are the variables you have to play with to impact training load and adaptations. Intensity is always important. Time is always important. Of course, at shorter and shorter distances, specificity dictates that there be more relative intensity than at longer distances. And time becomes relatively more important, the longer the race. But outside of race specific prep, the mix is also dictated by the goal one is looking to achieve (just at that point both short-term and long-term goals may be weighted differently than when approaching a specific goal race). Having just typed that, I don't know if that's more simple or confusing. Anyway, August is probably your son's season 'peak'. He can't peak at the 50-75 other races he does. That doesn't mean that he can't 'race' all of them (and by 'race', I do mean 'hammer' for the original questioner). |
| 2014-03-25 12:39 PM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by Left Brain The point about stress being timeXintensity is probably a good way to look at it, as long as it's understood that intensity becomes more and more important....especially at sprint and oly distances. Why do you need to caveat it? Time and intensity (and frequency--though this could be absorbed in 'time', I guess) are the variables you have to play with to impact training load and adaptations. Intensity is always important. Time is always important. Of course, at shorter and shorter distances, specificity dictates that there be more relative intensity than at longer distances. And time becomes relatively more important, the longer the race. But outside of race specific prep, the mix is also dictated by the goal one is looking to achieve (just at that point both short-term and long-term goals may be weighted differently than when approaching a specific goal race). Having just typed that, I don't know if that's more simple or confusing. Anyway, August is probably your son's season 'peak'. He can't peak at the 50-75 other races he does. That doesn't mean that he can't 'race' all of them (and by 'race', I do mean 'hammer' for the original questioner). I think I created the caveat for the same reason you don't know if what you wrote is more simple or confusing. Jr. peaks 4 times.....XC season, Swim season, Track season, and Triathlon......each looks quite a bit different in the timeXintensity structure until the peak gets close, then they look surprisingly alike. There is very little rest between each peak, but the intensity level goes down for a short time. I think that's th epart johnny was alluding to. It's ALL base. |
| 2014-03-25 7:18 PM in reply to: pashellabarger |
| 5 | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Thanks for all those that got back to me. It seems that there is a wide variety of training philosophies. I think I’ll clump them all into two categories: plans that include "hours" of training, and plans that include "distance" of training. Joel Friel and TP seem to fall into the "hours", as well as several of the BT free triathlon training plans. I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle. During the base period I’ll not worry about the distance and just do the prescribed hours at low intensities. As I push into the build phase I’ll start doing sessions that mimic actual racing, and aim to do race specific distances in Z3. By the end of build phase I should have laid down several rides and runs that equal or exceed the actual planned distance at race pace. If things go according to plan, I should be comfortable going into my first HIM because I’ll know that I can do the distance, I just have to link together all the different pieces. Oddly enough, someone over at ST just asked a very similar question: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=5017682;sb=post_latest_... And how the heck did this thread get so off course anyways?! Thanks again for all the help, Peter |
| 2014-03-26 4:36 AM in reply to: pashellabarger |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by pashellabarger Thanks for all those that got back to me. It seems that there is a wide variety of training philosophies. I think I’ll clump them all into two categories: plans that include "hours" of training, and plans that include "distance" of training. Joel Friel and TP seem to fall into the "hours", as well as several of the BT free triathlon training plans. I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle. During the base period I’ll not worry about the distance and just do the prescribed hours at low intensities. As I push into the build phase I’ll start doing sessions that mimic actual racing, and aim to do race specific distances in Z3. By the end of build phase I should have laid down several rides and runs that equal or exceed the actual planned distance at race pace. If things go according to plan, I should be comfortable going into my first HIM because I’ll know that I can do the distance, I just have to link together all the different pieces. Oddly enough, someone over at ST just asked a very similar question: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=5017682;sb=post_latest_... And how the heck did this thread get so off course anyways?! Thanks again for all the help, Peter I am not sure how many hours per week your "base" period, do not be afraid to up the intensity on the bike. As an example, you can take a free BT program by a guy named Jorge and do that. On top of some great threshold work, there is a long ride in there that increases every week. As a matter of fact this is a great example of a plan. Intensity slightly increases week over week, volume as well. At the end you would have a great base of bike fitness. You then transition over to more race specific pace training. I have no doubt you will complete your race, you seem on the right path. Best of luck, never hesitate to ask and learn to filter through the unrelated clutter that sometimes occurs. |
| 2014-03-26 7:12 AM in reply to: pashellabarger |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: Base Period Expectations Originally posted by pashellabarger Thanks for all those that got back to me. It seems that there is a wide variety of training philosophies. I think I’ll clump them all into two categories: plans that include "hours" of training, and plans that include "distance" of training. Joel Friel and TP seem to fall into the "hours", as well as several of the BT free triathlon training plans. I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle. During the base period I’ll not worry about the distance and just do the prescribed hours at low intensities. As I push into the build phase I’ll start doing sessions that mimic actual racing, and aim to do race specific distances in Z3. By the end of build phase I should have laid down several rides and runs that equal or exceed the actual planned distance at race pace. If things go according to plan, I should be comfortable going into my first HIM because I’ll know that I can do the distance, I just have to link together all the different pieces. Oddly enough, someone over at ST just asked a very similar question: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=5017682;sb=post_latest_... And how the heck did this thread get so off course anyways?! Thanks again for all the help, Peter Sounds like you're getting it dialed in :) That ST thread has a lot of good advice in it, especially about pacing the bike for HIM so you can run well after and length of bricks, specifically not doing too long a run off the bike. Good luck! (and go work on that swim) |
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