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2014-07-02 10:03 AM
in reply to: ejshowers

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by ejshowers
Originally posted by Left Brain

Has anyone here paid any attention to what a modern U.S. hospital looks like?  I can't firgure out when the rooms started needing marble bathroom counters and cherry wood cabinets, or when hospital lobbies started to need to look like those of a 5 star hotel.....or when pharma companies needed to start paying huge advertising fees so that their medicnes could be advertised to the general public (isn't that what doctors are for?) . I could go on and on about the absurdity of it all and I can't imagne a more screwed up scenario for something so basic. 

Hospital building trend is hard to pinpoint I'd day. Probably a combination of many factors including general upscale building materials used more and more and the desire to compete for the higher profit cardiac and other care in new clinics and specialty hospitals versus general public care, such emergency medicine and general family medicine. Direct-to-consumer advertising by big Pharma really jumped starting in 1997 when the FDA changed its rules so advertisers did not have to list the entire summary of the drug - that huge detailed page you see in print ads - but only had to mention the "adequate risk" items.

Yeah, i think the hospital stuff is marketing for the most part.

On Pharma, they are absolutely spending a ton of money on advertising and jacking their prices up, but it still comes down to having customers willing to pay the price.  They can have something for $10k a pill, but if the insurance/government won't pay for it then the price either has to drop or they sell so few they go out of business.



2014-07-02 10:20 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Ej - I get that.....but where does it stop and why are we paying for it?  I can't imagtine I'm different from anyone else....all I want is good care.  I don't even understand the pharma advertising deal.....do people see the adds and then go to their doctor and ask for the drugs?  That just seems crazy backwards to me.....especially in a society as over medicated as ours is.

2014-07-02 11:43 AM
in reply to: austhokie

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by austhokie
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Stacers

Originally posted by tuwood

The whole part of this that I don't like on this is the idea of the government mandating what private employers should cover for their employees in the first place and it has nothing to do with contraceptives.  

Agree completely with that - which is why I wish healthcare was handled completely outside of the workforce. I don't think employers should have anything to do with it, and the ACA completely fails to address this. That could be a whole other thread though, right?

You don't need 10,000 pages of laws to fix health care. Only one. Divorce healthcare from employment. Solved. If need be, government can cover uninsured with taxes.... or the market covers them with premiums... which is what we already do.

 

then I want a raise to cover what my employer pays for me in Healthcare as well as what is taken out of my paycheck (its about a 60/40 split) - because its unaffordable as it is - that is an issue - but until there is healthcare regulation, which there never will be - prices will continue to rise

Which is exactly what you would get, a raise. Because what they pay for you is total compensation. And what you are doing right now... is affording health care. Your health care is covered by your salary, and I assume you can pay your other bills. It was the government that tied it to employment in the first place... now they say they have to fix it... Right.

2014-07-02 11:59 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by austhokie
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Stacers

Originally posted by tuwood

The whole part of this that I don't like on this is the idea of the government mandating what private employers should cover for their employees in the first place and it has nothing to do with contraceptives.  

Agree completely with that - which is why I wish healthcare was handled completely outside of the workforce. I don't think employers should have anything to do with it, and the ACA completely fails to address this. That could be a whole other thread though, right?

You don't need 10,000 pages of laws to fix health care. Only one. Divorce healthcare from employment. Solved. If need be, government can cover uninsured with taxes.... or the market covers them with premiums... which is what we already do.

 

then I want a raise to cover what my employer pays for me in Healthcare as well as what is taken out of my paycheck (its about a 60/40 split) - because its unaffordable as it is - that is an issue - but until there is healthcare regulation, which there never will be - prices will continue to rise

Which is exactly what you would get, a raise. Because what they pay for you is total compensation. And what you are doing right now... is affording health care. Your health care is covered by your salary, and I assume you can pay your other bills. It was the government that tied it to employment in the first place... now they say they have to fix it... Right.




Ideally I would say yes but you never know. why give your employees the money if you can pocket it yourself? Its call maximizing profits.

I have not gotten a raise in 2 years but in theory if my company paying 50% of my health insurance cost at least that half is covered from increased costs. If I had to pay for it all on my own my healthcare costs would go up x2 more than it is now and I still have no more money so I would be losing more money each year.
2014-07-02 12:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by Left Brain

Has anyone here paid any attention to what a modern U.S. hospital looks like?  I can't firgure out when the rooms started needing marble bathroom counters and cherry wood cabinets, or when hospital lobbies started to need to look like those of a 5 star hotel.....or when pharma companies needed to start paying huge advertising fees so that their medicnes could be advertised to the general public (isn't that what doctors are for?) . I could go on and on about the absurdity of it all and I can't imagne a more screwed up scenario for something so basic. 

About the same time they started taking out digital billboard ads stating their ER wait times.  It's a FOR PROFIT system (realistically even for the municipal "non-profit" hospitals).  If you have the choice do you want to go to the ugly 1950s decorated hospital or the ultra-modern looking one (assuming your insurance covers both)?

Not saying it's right, but that's what driving it.

 



Edited by TriRSquared 2014-07-02 12:03 PM
2014-07-02 12:17 PM
in reply to: TriRSquared

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by TriRSquared

Originally posted by Left Brain

Has anyone here paid any attention to what a modern U.S. hospital looks like?  I can't firgure out when the rooms started needing marble bathroom counters and cherry wood cabinets, or when hospital lobbies started to need to look like those of a 5 star hotel.....or when pharma companies needed to start paying huge advertising fees so that their medicnes could be advertised to the general public (isn't that what doctors are for?) . I could go on and on about the absurdity of it all and I can't imagne a more screwed up scenario for something so basic. 

About the same time they started taking out digital billboard ads stating their ER wait times.  It's a FOR PROFIT system (realistically even for the municipal "non-profit" hospitals).  If you have the choice do you want to go to the ugly 1950s decorated hospital or the ultra-modern looking one (assuming your insurance covers both)?

Not saying it's right, but that's what driving it.

 

I will go where the doctor I want to see pracftices.....and I don't give a rats arse what it looks like because I want the hell out of there as soon as I can no matter what amenities it has.  These types of thigns that are driving costs through the roof, including advertising pharma should be controlled. 

I guess I'm on the side where health care is NOT a FOR PROFIT business.  I have no problem with health care professionals being paid well for their services....but the idea of huge companies making huge profits on the backs of sick and injured people is friggin' disgusting as far as I'm concerned.



2014-07-02 12:30 PM
in reply to: TriRSquared

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA
Originally posted by TriRSquared

Originally posted by Left Brain

Has anyone here paid any attention to what a modern U.S. hospital looks like?  I can't firgure out when the rooms started needing marble bathroom counters and cherry wood cabinets, or when hospital lobbies started to need to look like those of a 5 star hotel.....or when pharma companies needed to start paying huge advertising fees so that their medicnes could be advertised to the general public (isn't that what doctors are for?) . I could go on and on about the absurdity of it all and I can't imagne a more screwed up scenario for something so basic. 

About the same time they started taking out digital billboard ads stating their ER wait times.  It's a FOR PROFIT system (realistically even for the municipal "non-profit" hospitals).  If you have the choice do you want to go to the ugly 1950s decorated hospital or the ultra-modern looking one (assuming your insurance covers both)?

Not saying it's right, but that's what driving it.

 




couldn't agree more. same concept applies to the staff of the hospitals, not just the public ....better facilities, better equipment, and better programs bring better doctors, nurses, admin staff. if you walk ino a hospital that looks like a flashback to anything prior to the 90s, it's only human nature to assume the quality of service is equally as out-dated when you compare it to a new-age facility. fancy pictures, fishtanks, furniture, plants, sculptures, etc all indicate quality to the normal person covered by insurance. when you have to pay the same %/copay/deductible whether you go to the fancy place you assume has fancy doctors, why would you ever go to the out-dated place which you assume has out-dated doctors. supply and demand, really....and money feeds it all

it's no different than churches. why are churches now days building multi-million dollar facilities with luxury finishings and state-of-the-art everything, all on on prime realestate? quality appearance = quality service = more people = more money = more people = quality service = quality appearance

that's just my opinion, of course.
2014-07-02 3:30 PM
in reply to: antlimon166

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by antlimon166
Originally posted by TriRSquared

Originally posted by Left Brain

Has anyone here paid any attention to what a modern U.S. hospital looks like?  I can't firgure out when the rooms started needing marble bathroom counters and cherry wood cabinets, or when hospital lobbies started to need to look like those of a 5 star hotel.....or when pharma companies needed to start paying huge advertising fees so that their medicnes could be advertised to the general public (isn't that what doctors are for?) . I could go on and on about the absurdity of it all and I can't imagne a more screwed up scenario for something so basic. 

About the same time they started taking out digital billboard ads stating their ER wait times.  It's a FOR PROFIT system (realistically even for the municipal "non-profit" hospitals).  If you have the choice do you want to go to the ugly 1950s decorated hospital or the ultra-modern looking one (assuming your insurance covers both)?

Not saying it's right, but that's what driving it.

 

couldn't agree more. same concept applies to the staff of the hospitals, not just the public ....better facilities, better equipment, and better programs bring better doctors, nurses, admin staff. if you walk ino a hospital that looks like a flashback to anything prior to the 90s, it's only human nature to assume the quality of service is equally as out-dated when you compare it to a new-age facility. fancy pictures, fishtanks, furniture, plants, sculptures, etc all indicate quality to the normal person covered by insurance. when you have to pay the same %/copay/deductible whether you go to the fancy place you assume has fancy doctors, why would you ever go to the out-dated place which you assume has out-dated doctors. supply and demand, really....and money feeds it all it's no different than churches. why are churches now days building multi-million dollar facilities with luxury finishings and state-of-the-art everything, all on on prime realestate? quality appearance = quality service = more people = more money = more people = quality service = quality appearance that's just my opinion, of course.

Because people are stupid?

2014-07-02 3:33 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

I guess I'm on the side where health care is NOT a FOR PROFIT business.  I have no problem with health care professionals being paid well for their services....but the idea of huge companies making huge profits on the backs of sick and injured people is friggin' disgusting as far as I'm concerned.

 

x1,000,000

2014-07-02 3:41 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by antlimon166
Originally posted by TriRSquared

Originally posted by Left Brain

Has anyone here paid any attention to what a modern U.S. hospital looks like?  I can't firgure out when the rooms started needing marble bathroom counters and cherry wood cabinets, or when hospital lobbies started to need to look like those of a 5 star hotel.....or when pharma companies needed to start paying huge advertising fees so that their medicnes could be advertised to the general public (isn't that what doctors are for?) . I could go on and on about the absurdity of it all and I can't imagne a more screwed up scenario for something so basic. 

About the same time they started taking out digital billboard ads stating their ER wait times.  It's a FOR PROFIT system (realistically even for the municipal "non-profit" hospitals).  If you have the choice do you want to go to the ugly 1950s decorated hospital or the ultra-modern looking one (assuming your insurance covers both)?

Not saying it's right, but that's what driving it.

 

couldn't agree more. same concept applies to the staff of the hospitals, not just the public ....better facilities, better equipment, and better programs bring better doctors, nurses, admin staff. if you walk ino a hospital that looks like a flashback to anything prior to the 90s, it's only human nature to assume the quality of service is equally as out-dated when you compare it to a new-age facility. fancy pictures, fishtanks, furniture, plants, sculptures, etc all indicate quality to the normal person covered by insurance. when you have to pay the same %/copay/deductible whether you go to the fancy place you assume has fancy doctors, why would you ever go to the out-dated place which you assume has out-dated doctors. supply and demand, really....and money feeds it all it's no different than churches. why are churches now days building multi-million dollar facilities with luxury finishings and state-of-the-art everything, all on on prime realestate? quality appearance = quality service = more people = more money = more people = quality service = quality appearance that's just my opinion, of course.

Because people are stupid?




yes, very.
2014-07-02 3:54 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by antlimon166
Originally posted by TriRSquared

Originally posted by Left Brain

Has anyone here paid any attention to what a modern U.S. hospital looks like?  I can't firgure out when the rooms started needing marble bathroom counters and cherry wood cabinets, or when hospital lobbies started to need to look like those of a 5 star hotel.....or when pharma companies needed to start paying huge advertising fees so that their medicnes could be advertised to the general public (isn't that what doctors are for?) . I could go on and on about the absurdity of it all and I can't imagne a more screwed up scenario for something so basic. 

About the same time they started taking out digital billboard ads stating their ER wait times.  It's a FOR PROFIT system (realistically even for the municipal "non-profit" hospitals).  If you have the choice do you want to go to the ugly 1950s decorated hospital or the ultra-modern looking one (assuming your insurance covers both)?

Not saying it's right, but that's what driving it.

 

couldn't agree more. same concept applies to the staff of the hospitals, not just the public ....better facilities, better equipment, and better programs bring better doctors, nurses, admin staff. if you walk ino a hospital that looks like a flashback to anything prior to the 90s, it's only human nature to assume the quality of service is equally as out-dated when you compare it to a new-age facility. fancy pictures, fishtanks, furniture, plants, sculptures, etc all indicate quality to the normal person covered by insurance. when you have to pay the same %/copay/deductible whether you go to the fancy place you assume has fancy doctors, why would you ever go to the out-dated place which you assume has out-dated doctors. supply and demand, really....and money feeds it all it's no different than churches. why are churches now days building multi-million dollar facilities with luxury finishings and state-of-the-art everything, all on on prime realestate? quality appearance = quality service = more people = more money = more people = quality service = quality appearance that's just my opinion, of course.

Because people are stupid?

Yes.. pretty much... I wasn't saying it was right.  I was saying what it was...



2014-07-02 4:12 PM
in reply to: trijamie

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by trijamie

I guess I'm on the side where health care is NOT a FOR PROFIT business.  I have no problem with health care professionals being paid well for their services....but the idea of huge companies making huge profits on the backs of sick and injured people is friggin' disgusting as far as I'm concerned.

 

x1,000,000

You guys can't have your cake and eat it to.  For profit drives investment and innovation.  Non profit drives mediocre care because there's no incentive to do anything other than maintain the norm.

2014-07-02 5:19 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by trijamie

I guess I'm on the side where health care is NOT a FOR PROFIT business.  I have no problem with health care professionals being paid well for their services....but the idea of huge companies making huge profits on the backs of sick and injured people is friggin' disgusting as far as I'm concerned.

 

x1,000,000

You guys can't have your cake and eat it to.  For profit drives investment and innovation.  Non profit drives mediocre care because there's no incentive to do anything other than maintain the norm.

The profits are over the top....no need whatsoever for the 5 star hotel treatment of hospitals, or the absolutely ridiculous amount of money spent to advertise what should be only prescribed by doctors.  I just can't get on board with the extravagance at the expense of sick and injured people.  I won't ever get there.

2014-07-02 6:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA
New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.





Edited by Goosedog 2014-07-02 6:41 PM
2014-07-02 6:41 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by antlimon166
Originally posted by TriRSquared

Originally posted by Left Brain

Has anyone here paid any attention to what a modern U.S. hospital looks like?  I can't firgure out when the rooms started needing marble bathroom counters and cherry wood cabinets, or when hospital lobbies started to need to look like those of a 5 star hotel.....or when pharma companies needed to start paying huge advertising fees so that their medicnes could be advertised to the general public (isn't that what doctors are for?) . I could go on and on about the absurdity of it all and I can't imagne a more screwed up scenario for something so basic. 

About the same time they started taking out digital billboard ads stating their ER wait times.  It's a FOR PROFIT system (realistically even for the municipal "non-profit" hospitals).  If you have the choice do you want to go to the ugly 1950s decorated hospital or the ultra-modern looking one (assuming your insurance covers both)?

Not saying it's right, but that's what driving it.

 

couldn't agree more. same concept applies to the staff of the hospitals, not just the public ....better facilities, better equipment, and better programs bring better doctors, nurses, admin staff. if you walk ino a hospital that looks like a flashback to anything prior to the 90s, it's only human nature to assume the quality of service is equally as out-dated when you compare it to a new-age facility. fancy pictures, fishtanks, furniture, plants, sculptures, etc all indicate quality to the normal person covered by insurance. when you have to pay the same %/copay/deductible whether you go to the fancy place you assume has fancy doctors, why would you ever go to the out-dated place which you assume has out-dated doctors. supply and demand, really....and money feeds it all it's no different than churches. why are churches now days building multi-million dollar facilities with luxury finishings and state-of-the-art everything, all on on prime realestate? quality appearance = quality service = more people = more money = more people = quality service = quality appearance that's just my opinion, of course.

Because people are stupid?




People have been doing this for a very long time, look at all of Europe's gothic cathedrals. It is about power, prestige and for the average joe a celebration of their faith. It's akin to the old concept, the higher the hair the closer to God!
2014-07-02 10:09 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

stop making sense. you work for me and i'll decide what you do with your body.



2014-07-03 7:06 AM
in reply to: Clempson

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA
Originally posted by Clempson

stop making sense. you work for me and i'll decide what you do with your body.




That's not at all what the case was/is about. HL just doesn't think that they should be mandated to pay for all of your choices about your body. HL isn't forbidding anyone from taking any of the 4 contraceptive medicines/devices that they have issue with, they just don't want to pay for it.

I will go back to one of my earlier questions specific to the case. Is HL's objection to providing the 4 methods completely or is just that they are required to foot the bill 100%. I assume they don't want the 4 types on their plan no matter how much they are covering, but I am don't know for sure. I am interested in the court's ruling on "least restrictive means" clause. Could the mandate for the contraception coverage been written in another way that would have complied with this? I personally don't get what is so special about contraception that it should be free for all, well at leas the 20 medicines/methods specifically outlined in the law.
2014-07-03 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically)....

Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women.

They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them.

I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.

2014-07-10 2:01 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically)....

Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women.

They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them.

I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.

 

explain

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html

2014-07-10 2:31 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically)....

Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women.

They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them.

I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.

 

explain

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html

I always love the faux hypocrite stories.

So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills.   Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing.  Those Hypocrites.  

2014-07-10 3:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically)....

Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women.

They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them.

I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.

 

explain

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html

I always love the faux hypocrite stories.

So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills.   Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing.  Those Hypocrites.  




Hahaha well put!!

I wonder how many people know every single company held by every mutual fund they have in their portfolio, retirement or otherwise.


2014-07-10 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by trinnas
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically)....

Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women.

They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them.

I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.

 

explain

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html

I always love the faux hypocrite stories.

So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills.   Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing.  Those Hypocrites.  

Hahaha well put!! I wonder how many people know every single company held by every mutual fund they have in their portfolio, retirement or otherwise.

You take a case to the Supreme Court because its SO against your beliefs to allow your employees to get birth control, but you're ok with making money off of it. And the I didn't know I was doing it excuse doesn't fly here as Hobby Lobby has demonstrated that they are so concerned with this issue.

2014-07-10 3:26 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by trinnas
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically)....

Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women.

They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them.

I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.

 

explain

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html

I always love the faux hypocrite stories.

So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills.   Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing.  Those Hypocrites.  

Hahaha well put!! I wonder how many people know every single company held by every mutual fund they have in their portfolio, retirement or otherwise.

You take a case to the Supreme Court because its SO against your beliefs to allow your employees to get birth control, but you're ok with making money off of it. And the I didn't know I was doing it excuse doesn't fly here as Hobby Lobby has demonstrated that they are so concerned with this issue.



Sorry the difference here is that it is the employees are using their money to invest in those companies in their own 401ks. I don't see anywhere that HL wants to keep it's employees from buying those products with their own money.
2014-07-10 4:04 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by trinnas
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically)....

Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women.

They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them.

I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.

 

explain

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html

I always love the faux hypocrite stories.

So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills.   Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing.  Those Hypocrites.  

Hahaha well put!! I wonder how many people know every single company held by every mutual fund they have in their portfolio, retirement or otherwise.

You take a case to the Supreme Court because its SO against your beliefs to allow your employees to get birth control, but you're ok with making money off of it. And the I didn't know I was doing it excuse doesn't fly here as Hobby Lobby has demonstrated that they are so concerned with this issue.

I know you really want this to help the cause, but it's just not the way 401k's work.

401k's are a tax deferred retirement savings program that a company sets up for it's employees.  The company can optionally match contributions to the 401k, but have no control over what funds the employees choose to invest in other than what investment firm they use to broker and manage the 401k.

For example, I have a 401k for my employee's that is managed by a local investment company.  Each employee has a 401k account that they log into and select which mutual funds they want to invest in and there are something like 70 different ones they can choose.  I contribute money into the accounts as matching funds and my employees and pay an annual fee for them to manage it, but that's it.  I get absolutely zero gain of any kind from a 401k as a business owner because it's not a business investment, it's an employee owned retirement account.

So, to say that hobby lobby is "making money" off of employee retirement accounts is kind of silly when you put it in context.  The furthest stretch you could use and be distantly accurate would be to say Hobby Lobby employees make money off of mutual funds that invest in pharmaceutical companies that manufacture birth control.

2014-07-10 4:11 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Maryland
Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by trinnas
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you.

Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically)....

Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women.

They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them.

I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.

 

explain

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html

I always love the faux hypocrite stories.

So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills.   Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing.  Those Hypocrites.  

Hahaha well put!! I wonder how many people know every single company held by every mutual fund they have in their portfolio, retirement or otherwise.

You take a case to the Supreme Court because its SO against your beliefs to allow your employees to get birth control, but you're ok with making money off of it. And the I didn't know I was doing it excuse doesn't fly here as Hobby Lobby has demonstrated that they are so concerned with this issue.

I know you really want this to help the cause, but it's just not the way 401k's work.

401k's are a tax deferred retirement savings program that a company sets up for it's employees.  The company can optionally match contributions to the 401k, but have no control over what funds the employees choose to invest in other than what investment firm they use to broker and manage the 401k.

For example, I have a 401k for my employee's that is managed by a local investment company.  Each employee has a 401k account that they log into and select which mutual funds they want to invest in and there are something like 70 different ones they can choose.  I contribute money into the accounts as matching funds and my employees and pay an annual fee for them to manage it, but that's it.  I get absolutely zero gain of any kind from a 401k as a business owner because it's not a business investment, it's an employee owned retirement account.

So, to say that hobby lobby is "making money" off of employee retirement accounts is kind of silly when you put it in context.  The furthest stretch you could use and be distantly accurate would be to say Hobby Lobby employees make money off of mutual funds that invest in pharmaceutical companies that manufacture birth control.

So if the employer makes any contribution to their employee's 401k they are investing in the company on the employee's behalf. Wouldn't that also be against their beliefs in the same vein that the court case was?

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