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2014-04-09 2:00 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

Originally posted by brigby1

From what I've seen, it depends on how well one is developed. Jr was quite fast from the get-go, but was also lower down on his potential as he hadn't be tremendously active. In such a person (lower on their potential), any activity will help improve others. The more advanced one becomes, the more specific the training needs to be to keep on going. The ITU distances brought up haven't really been disputed as being a reflection of what they might be doing and show a shift of swimming a bit less and adding in more running from what Jr is doing now.

Personally, I have not been able to tell if swimming has helped my running. I have more core stability, but that's the limit of what I can detect. My running is more advanced on my potential than my swimming is, or has been. There has been no detectable help with my biking, and it might get in the way at times as it's tougher to execute bike workouts. Progress on the bike has followed how well bike training has gone. If I can't get the strong workouts in or the volume, my progress stagnates or has even declined at times. I'm also way higher on my bike potential than either of the other two with some years of hard work and strong volume there.

I have seen some who added in just a bit of swimming to the couple runs that they were doing, and felt their running improve. They were very healthy, but not tremendously active. Not like me (or Jr).

Basically I don't think this is quite a one size fits all situation.

I think that's interesting and has merit.  So, in applying it to AG'ers, especially those just starting out......wouldn't they all fit into the "lower on their potential" category.  As such, couldn't they all benefit from a large swim volume, as compared to running, to help them move toward their aerobic "potential", also saving the miles on their legs until they get more time in?



2014-04-09 2:09 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

From what I've seen, it depends on how well one is developed. Jr was quite fast from the get-go, but was also lower down on his potential as he hadn't be tremendously active. In such a person (lower on their potential), any activity will help improve others. The more advanced one becomes, the more specific the training needs to be to keep on going. The ITU distances brought up haven't really been disputed as being a reflection of what they might be doing and show a shift of swimming a bit less and adding in more running from what Jr is doing now.

Personally, I have not been able to tell if swimming has helped my running. I have more core stability, but that's the limit of what I can detect. My running is more advanced on my potential than my swimming is, or has been. There has been no detectable help with my biking, and it might get in the way at times as it's tougher to execute bike workouts. Progress on the bike has followed how well bike training has gone. If I can't get the strong workouts in or the volume, my progress stagnates or has even declined at times. I'm also way higher on my bike potential than either of the other two with some years of hard work and strong volume there.

I have seen some who added in just a bit of swimming to the couple runs that they were doing, and felt their running improve. They were very healthy, but not tremendously active. Not like me (or Jr).

Basically I don't think this is quite a one size fits all situation.

I think that's interesting and has merit.  So, in applying it to AG'ers, especially those just starting out......wouldn't they all fit into the "lower on their potential" category.  As such, couldn't they all benefit from a large swim volume, as compared to running, to help them move toward their aerobic "potential", also saving the miles on their legs until they get more time in?

I think it depends on where they are coming from (and before getting into time restrictions on swimming). For a lot of people, absolutely. I think it would be helpful. But not necessarily for everyone. One example is a friend of my brother who is a Cat 1 roadie, bordering on pro at some point. Would the swim help him as much? I'm not as sure, as in I don't know if it would or would not help his running as his aerobic system is already well up there. Some aspects of it might, like the kicking that was brought up. But would not expect it to the extent that someone lower on everything would see. This guy should still learn to swim if he wants to do this, but how a program for him would be set up could be different.

2014-04-09 5:38 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by Left Brain
Here's another point of discussion, because clearly not everyone benefits in the same way from various activities.  How much do you kick on the swim?  My son kicks a ton while he swims and does a lot of kick sets at very high intensity.  He had a day with Mcgee a few weeks ago and he commented on my son's hip development, which he attributes much of his raw speed to.  My son believes it's from all of the kicking he does while swimming.  I know that often when someone is hurt they are given the advice to "water run" in order to keep some run fitness.  I wonder how much more of the swim can be transferred over to the run by someone who kicks a lot, and if that's the reason my kid seems to benefit greatly from more swim mileage?  I'm thinking out loud here.




Winner winner chicken dinner. As soon as I read it I knew you were on to something. I've said before I didn't know if my run improvement was coincidental to my swim volume increasing or not, but it was definitely coincidental with when I overhauled the stroke last year to focus on integrating the kick properly, which meant at least 500 yds of kicking sets each time I got in the pool. I can't believe I didn't see the correlation before. I have been running 30 mpw for a couple years, but my speed and cardiovascular ability to hold that speed comfortably didn't come online until then. Wow, really looking forward to my kick set tonight now

The comment on hips is compelling, because I also run differently now, very much a whole body gait that is chest and hip driven. Wow, still stunned by the correlation. If I didn't like mankind so much I might not share this at all.

I LOVE this topic, and I love that it keeps coming up. Dudes, there is no substitute for time in the saddle or running volume, but the swim holds a lot more secrets than you could possibly believe. I'm not convinced you need to swim a ton of volume, but I am convinced in high frequency. If you swim 4x a week for at least 30 minutes, and you do it RIGHT, meaning with a kick, with video of your stroke to spot and correct issues immediately, with drills, with a program, with intervals, etc....(heh...heh....heh...)

LB, thank jr. for me
2014-04-09 6:24 PM
in reply to: fisherman76


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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

Too bad the reality is that there are a good number of ex-collegiate swimmers and ex-olympic candidates in swimming (I've trained with some, yes), who got into tri shortly after their swim careers, and they're pretty much never monster runners right off the bat. Yes, they can get really, really good due to their great aerobic engine (and aerobic genetics - you don't become a collegiate swimmer without them) but it usually takes them years of fully legit run training to hit their potential.

 

There are no pure run coaches that recommend doing pool kick drills to get better at running. They will ALL tell you that you will get much, much higher yield by actually running, and if you still can't run due to injury, doing pool-running (not swim-kicking) is the next best thing. 

 

Doing lots of hard kick sets may help build that aerobic cardio engine, sure, so it's not completely no yield. But it's probably wayyyy down on the priority list on how to actually get better in running as a triathlete. 

2014-04-09 6:36 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Well duh of course you don't just jump out of the pool and start running, but the point is the ceiling is higher, quicker if you swim.
2014-04-09 7:06 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by yazmaster

Too bad the reality is that there are a good number of ex-collegiate swimmers and ex-olympic candidates in swimming (I've trained with some, yes), who got into tri shortly after their swim careers, and they're pretty much never monster runners right off the bat. Yes, they can get really, really good due to their great aerobic engine (and aerobic genetics - you don't become a collegiate swimmer without them) but it usually takes them years of fully legit run training to hit their potential.

 

There are no pure run coaches that recommend doing pool kick drills to get better at running. They will ALL tell you that you will get much, much higher yield by actually running, and if you still can't run due to injury, doing pool-running (not swim-kicking) is the next best thing. 

 

Doing lots of hard kick sets may help build that aerobic cardio engine, sure, so it's not completely no yield. But it's probably wayyyy down on the priority list on how to actually get better in running as a triathlete. 




No pure run coach will advocate another sport for that sports development, why? Because they don't have a sound understanding. A pure run coach will say run more, because that is what they are familiar with, what they know, and what they understand.


2014-04-09 9:10 PM
in reply to: bcagle25


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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

Nope, disagree with you completely here.

 

World-class cycling and running and swimming coaches know their sports intimately, AND know of enough experiences with serious x-training and its effects on their athletes. 

 

They do not recommend x-training for in-season training for pure esingle sport athletes, because specificity has been definitively shown to be the best route to improvement. This is not a matter of ignorance about the benefits of swimming, or cycling as a run coach. There is a 100% chance that if training like a triathlete reliably produced the fastest runners, even faster than pure standalone run training, every coach would have swimming and/or cycling in the main training blocks.

 

 

2014-04-09 9:14 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by yazmaster

Nope, disagree with you completely here.

 

World-class cycling and running and swimming coaches know their sports intimately, AND know of enough experiences with serious x-training and its effects on their athletes. 

 

They do not recommend x-training for in-season training for pure esingle sport athletes, because specificity has been definitively shown to be the best route to improvement. This is not a matter of ignorance about the benefits of swimming, or cycling as a run coach. There is a 100% chance that if training like a triathlete reliably produced the fastest runners, even faster than pure standalone run training, every coach would have swimming and/or cycling in the main training blocks.

 

 




I guess I should have worded it differently. You are also making a different comparison. A pure runner is training for running, a triathlete is training for all 3 sports. So cross-over benefits from one to the other are great.

Yeah I agree with what you are saying, but not the point you are making.
2014-04-09 9:31 PM
in reply to: bcagle25


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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

I still stand behind my original point before my prior post, which is that trying to improve your running by doing a lot of kick sets in the pool, is low enough yield that it is NOT recommended by pretty much any coach, be it triathlon or pure running coach, as a time-efficient means to significantly improve your run ability.  That was my point.

2014-04-09 9:42 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by yazmaster

I still stand behind my original point before my prior post, which is that trying to improve your running by doing a lot of kick sets in the pool, is low enough yield that it is NOT recommended by pretty much any coach, be it triathlon or pure running coach, as a time-efficient means to significantly improve your run ability.  That was my point.




By saying time-efficient you are making a different argument then what was originally argued. I was never arguing what is the most time-efficient choice. But that is another discussion for another time.
2014-04-09 10:16 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain But they all build the engine, right?  I don't agree that the same type program won't work for AG'ers.....first, they don't swim.....second, they don't know how to run, and there are more effecient ways to learning to run better than "just run more" with the same problems.

Most people say that to run faster you have to run more.  The truth is, you have to run faster more.(since you used them, the Brownlee's are a great example)  I believe you can run faster by doing it more and save miles on your legs (help prevent injury), and build endurance, by swimming A LOT more.

It's funny.  My kid doesn't do the track workouts the other kids do.  He gets his workouts from a coach who takes into account all he is doing.  He runs much less and is MUCH faster than his teammates.....no matter what age.  The funny part is that the other kids say, "well, you do so much more swimming and biking and all we do is run".  Sure, they don't really understand everything he does, but they know he runs about 60% of the miles they are running, and they also know he runs a ton of fast intervals.

Much of what you posted makes perfect sense......but I can't be convinced there is no crossover benefit from very intense training.  And I can't be convinced that there is no benefit from the principles for AG triathletes......most of them don't have a clue how to train to be fast......so they just train longer, and waste a lot of time.

First of all, I agree that many AGers don't swim enough and some of the ones that put in the hours don't do it optimally. But this can be said for all 3 sports. It's all about balancing the 3 as Jason stated and training all 3 smart. I am trying to put my training where my mouth is. I have increased my swimming and my average pace in a workout is greater than my threshold pace. I am doing quite a bit of intensity. My /100m time is down by about 5s and I qualified for world masters in the 100 and 200m. But I don't feel any benefit to my bike or run. I did it because swimming is my weakness and I could get good bang for the buck. My goal is 20% of my time on the swim, 35% on the run and 45% on the bike. I am also planning to do some short course so I feel the swim is important at this point in time. The best way to improve a specific sport is to train it specifically and efficiently. Under certain conditions, all slow running may make sense. For me it doesn't. But that is just me. Figure out where you will get the biggest return on investment and do it efficiently but it's all about balance. As AGers, we are very time restricted and it's critical to train smart rather than more. As for cross over, performance for a given sport is a combination of VO2max, ability to hold a % of VO2max and efficiency. Efficiency only comes from doing the specific sport. Ability to hold a % of VO2max comes from training the specific sport. I believe there is some transfer of VO2max across sports. This is based on what I have read and specific testing I have done on myself. My VO2max on the bike is equivalent to that of the run. I believe some caried over. Yet, I am a much better runner. This is for 2 reasons. My ability to hold a % of VO2max on the run is much greater, because I run more and my efficency at that pace is above average, because I run more. On the bike, it's the opposite. I believe this is 100% due to not training the bike enough.

Thanks...all of your experiences are useful and I always learn something from them.

Here's another point of discussion, because clearly not everyone benefits in the same way from various activities.  How much do you kick on the swim?  My son kicks a ton while he swims and does a lot of kick sets at very high intensity.  He had a day with Mcgee a few weeks ago and he commented on my son's hip development, which he attributes much of his raw speed to.  My son believes it's from all of the kicking he does while swimming.  I know that often when someone is hurt they are given the advice to "water run" in order to keep some run fitness.  I wonder how much more of the swim can be transferred over to the run by someone who kicks a lot, and if that's the reason my kid seems to benefit greatly from more swim mileage?  I'm thinking out loud here.




Kicking in swim sets is underrated in triathlon. People always say that you shouldn't kick to conserve energy and that it doesn't make you faster, but what kicking does do is:

Help keep you on top of the water
Strengthens your core (this includes hamstrings and quadriceps, two major muscles involved in the cycle/run)
Open yours hips from all the miles hunched over cycling
Transfer more power in cycle/run
It has a direct application to all 3 sports and an improvement across the board.

Really the kick is very beneficial, people just look at it from a very specific point and fail to see the bigger picture.

Also kicking with a board is one option. I do lots of kick sets on my back (teaches a great streamline position, no kick board, etc. If you use a kick board make sure to wear your goggles and breathe as you normally would in swimming. Kicking with your head up and out of the water drops your hips and makes kicking way more difficult then it needs to be.

EDIT: When I swam with a high school team this winter we would do kick sets of 500-1000 quite often. The power in my stroke increased tremendously and I was definitely swimming more on top of the water (more efficiently). Jordan Rapp also does a lot of kick sets when he swims with (forgot the name of the club) and he mentions many of the same benefits.


Ben

how can kicking help with power on the bike and run? what exactly?

i prefer to stick with science that show transfer (physiological) from one sport to the other is very poor. that is why specificity is still one of the cardinal principal of training.

Jordan as to do a lot of kicking because he as join a swim team. That is normal, those kids kick a lot for short course swim races. But are you saying jordan is claiming the same things as you do? i might have to hit him on the head if he lost his mind..... but i know him well, i just dont think that was is in opinion in any kind of way....


2014-04-09 10:50 PM
in reply to: jonnyo

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by jonnyo

Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain But they all build the engine, right?  I don't agree that the same type program won't work for AG'ers.....first, they don't swim.....second, they don't know how to run, and there are more effecient ways to learning to run better than "just run more" with the same problems.

Most people say that to run faster you have to run more.  The truth is, you have to run faster more.(since you used them, the Brownlee's are a great example)  I believe you can run faster by doing it more and save miles on your legs (help prevent injury), and build endurance, by swimming A LOT more.

It's funny.  My kid doesn't do the track workouts the other kids do.  He gets his workouts from a coach who takes into account all he is doing.  He runs much less and is MUCH faster than his teammates.....no matter what age.  The funny part is that the other kids say, "well, you do so much more swimming and biking and all we do is run".  Sure, they don't really understand everything he does, but they know he runs about 60% of the miles they are running, and they also know he runs a ton of fast intervals.

Much of what you posted makes perfect sense......but I can't be convinced there is no crossover benefit from very intense training.  And I can't be convinced that there is no benefit from the principles for AG triathletes......most of them don't have a clue how to train to be fast......so they just train longer, and waste a lot of time.

First of all, I agree that many AGers don't swim enough and some of the ones that put in the hours don't do it optimally. But this can be said for all 3 sports. It's all about balancing the 3 as Jason stated and training all 3 smart. I am trying to put my training where my mouth is. I have increased my swimming and my average pace in a workout is greater than my threshold pace. I am doing quite a bit of intensity. My /100m time is down by about 5s and I qualified for world masters in the 100 and 200m. But I don't feel any benefit to my bike or run. I did it because swimming is my weakness and I could get good bang for the buck. My goal is 20% of my time on the swim, 35% on the run and 45% on the bike. I am also planning to do some short course so I feel the swim is important at this point in time. The best way to improve a specific sport is to train it specifically and efficiently. Under certain conditions, all slow running may make sense. For me it doesn't. But that is just me. Figure out where you will get the biggest return on investment and do it efficiently but it's all about balance. As AGers, we are very time restricted and it's critical to train smart rather than more. As for cross over, performance for a given sport is a combination of VO2max, ability to hold a % of VO2max and efficiency. Efficiency only comes from doing the specific sport. Ability to hold a % of VO2max comes from training the specific sport. I believe there is some transfer of VO2max across sports. This is based on what I have read and specific testing I have done on myself. My VO2max on the bike is equivalent to that of the run. I believe some caried over. Yet, I am a much better runner. This is for 2 reasons. My ability to hold a % of VO2max on the run is much greater, because I run more and my efficency at that pace is above average, because I run more. On the bike, it's the opposite. I believe this is 100% due to not training the bike enough.

Thanks...all of your experiences are useful and I always learn something from them.

Here's another point of discussion, because clearly not everyone benefits in the same way from various activities.  How much do you kick on the swim?  My son kicks a ton while he swims and does a lot of kick sets at very high intensity.  He had a day with Mcgee a few weeks ago and he commented on my son's hip development, which he attributes much of his raw speed to.  My son believes it's from all of the kicking he does while swimming.  I know that often when someone is hurt they are given the advice to "water run" in order to keep some run fitness.  I wonder how much more of the swim can be transferred over to the run by someone who kicks a lot, and if that's the reason my kid seems to benefit greatly from more swim mileage?  I'm thinking out loud here.




Kicking in swim sets is underrated in triathlon. People always say that you shouldn't kick to conserve energy and that it doesn't make you faster, but what kicking does do is:

Help keep you on top of the water
Strengthens your core (this includes hamstrings and quadriceps, two major muscles involved in the cycle/run)
Open yours hips from all the miles hunched over cycling
Transfer more power in cycle/run
It has a direct application to all 3 sports and an improvement across the board.

Really the kick is very beneficial, people just look at it from a very specific point and fail to see the bigger picture.

Also kicking with a board is one option. I do lots of kick sets on my back (teaches a great streamline position, no kick board, etc. If you use a kick board make sure to wear your goggles and breathe as you normally would in swimming. Kicking with your head up and out of the water drops your hips and makes kicking way more difficult then it needs to be.

EDIT: When I swam with a high school team this winter we would do kick sets of 500-1000 quite often. The power in my stroke increased tremendously and I was definitely swimming more on top of the water (more efficiently). Jordan Rapp also does a lot of kick sets when he swims with (forgot the name of the club) and he mentions many of the same benefits.


Ben

how can kicking help with power on the bike and run? what exactly?

i prefer to stick with science that show transfer (physiological) from one sport to the other is very poor. that is why specificity is still one of the cardinal principal of training.

Jordan as to do a lot of kicking because he as join a swim team. That is normal, those kids kick a lot for short course swim races. But are you saying jordan is claiming the same things as you do? i might have to hit him on the head if he lost his mind..... but i know him well, i just dont think that was is in opinion in any kind of way....


Hip extension

Can help build stronger hips, stronger core, transfer more power. Also by strengthening the core it can help the hips from sagging so drastically as it does for many AG'ers late in LC races.

BTW as I mentioned earlier in this thread where it may have been lost, I kick on my back in a streamline position, I do not use kick boards.
2014-04-10 12:27 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
well, kicking on your back or with a board...... i highly doubt we'll ever see benefice for bike and run. i m open to be wrong. But right now, that is definitely not what scientific literature is telling us and what training methodology have proven so far.

age group that have sinking hips would be well serve to run more. That is the number 1 exercises that will prevent them from hip sinking on the run late in a race. As for core, nothing like running to developpe running core muscle...and nothing like biking to develop bike core muscles. specificity is what matter as transfert from sport to other sport does not happen as you claim it. it just isn't true.

2014-04-10 5:12 AM
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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain So, what dfoes MacMillan say they should be able to run a marathon in based on a 30:00 10K off the bike?  I'm going to go with 2:30 - 2:36.  Not bad for only running 60 mpw huh?  I'm sticking with the idea that the 1.2 million yards they swim per year helps just a little with that.
I completely disagree. Their swimming volume has little to nothing to do with their run speed. Their run volume/lintensity has to do with their running.

I know you do, but I think you are wroing. 



Joyno speaks of scientific litterature There are dozens of papers showing that the cross over between sports is not a big factor

This one
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11774068

is very specific to your comments : "Swimming appears to be a highly specific activity, which does not gain nor provide benefits from/to other activities (i. e. cycling and running). The present study shows that cross-transfer training effects occur between cycling training and running performance in elite triathletes. A similar cross-training effect does not seem to occur for swimming performance"

Again, there are many of these papers, all saying the same thing.


Edited by marcag 2014-04-10 5:13 AM
2014-04-10 7:37 AM
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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain So, what dfoes MacMillan say they should be able to run a marathon in based on a 30:00 10K off the bike?  I'm going to go with 2:30 - 2:36.  Not bad for only running 60 mpw huh?  I'm sticking with the idea that the 1.2 million yards they swim per year helps just a little with that.
I completely disagree. Their swimming volume has little to nothing to do with their run speed. Their run volume/lintensity has to do with their running.

I know you do, but I think you are wroing. 

Joyno speaks of scientific litterature There are dozens of papers showing that the cross over between sports is not a big factor This one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11774068is very specific to your comments : "Swimming appears to be a highly specific activity, which does not gain nor provide benefits from/to other activities (i. e. cycling and running). The present study shows that cross-transfer training effects occur between cycling training and running performance in elite triathletes. A similar cross-training effect does not seem to occur for swimming performance" Again, there are many of these papers, all saying the same thing.

It was noted somewhere before that Jr had well developed hips already. I wonder how that relates to all the run drills and exercises he does. Had he already been doing those when that observation was made? I've been kicking a fair amount since early in the fall, ~10% of weekly volume or more. Might have reached 20% at times. Sets of 500-800 or so several times a week, plus smaller ones on other days. And with my volume this could often reach 2,000-3,000 a week. I could not definitively tell if it helped running at all. It most certainly helped my kicking (and swimming). The kick motion is more limited in range than a running stride and the timing is different. It wasn't until I started doing some range of motion things for running that I began to notice something. I needed the knee drive and work that goes farther than what a swim kick does. If something is happening for someone, I would tend to think it's more along the lines of the earlier point with an inactive person picking up more activity of any kind. So not saying it never happens, but rather to keep it in context for the individual.

2014-04-10 8:55 AM
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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

All good discussion, and thanks for the links Marcaq.  As long as the times keep dropping his program will remain the same.  I won't tell him that you think there is no correlation to the swim sets he does and his running......because he thinks there is, and he's the one running.  

I'm just happy that he can drop time without the massive mileage that I was pushed to run at his age by people who "held the knowledge" of how to run long and fast.....because that was a friggin' disaster.



2014-04-10 9:06 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
if it s not broken...dont fix it.

that said, i m not sure what kids do high mileage? Our ITU program as produce some of the best triathlete in the world and non of our kids do what i would consider high miles on the run. they do swim a fair bit too..... and should of course! that is crucial to develop early!!!

it s very easy to have kids peak early in there 16-20 year old.... but if they want a long career with steady improvement, you are smart to supervise that he isn't pushed too much...at least on the running. years of consistency will do lots more than a year or 2 of big miles follow by injuries!!!
2014-04-10 9:40 AM
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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by marcag

This one
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11774068

is very specific to your comments : "Swimming appears to be a highly specific activity, which does not gain nor provide benefits from/to other activities (i. e. cycling and running). The present study shows that cross-transfer training effects occur between cycling training and running performance in elite triathletes. A similar cross-training effect does not seem to occur for swimming performance"

Again, there are many of these papers, all saying the same thing.



This is interesting to me. My 8yo son runs circles around everyone on the soccer field, not because he is particularly skilled with the ball, but because he can go faster, longer than the other kids (at least for now). He also ran a good 400m at his first track meet (not so much 100m). I assumed this was because of his competitive swimming and being pretty active in other sports as well. I don't claim to understand the science, but I find it hard to believe (maybe understand is the better word) how focused swimming wouldn't increase your aerobic capacity (?, or something) that would in turn benefit distance running.

ETA: Is there a distinction in the science between elite athletes and not? I can understand that a gifted runner may not show a measurable run improvement from swimming, but would the same be true for non-elites or kids?









Edited by Goosedog 2014-04-10 9:43 AM
2014-04-10 9:44 AM
in reply to: jonnyo

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

Originally posted by jonnyo if it s not broken...dont fix it. that said, i m not sure what kids do high mileage? Our ITU program as produce some of the best triathlete in the world and non of our kids do what i would consider high miles on the run. they do swim a fair bit too..... and should of course! that is crucial to develop early!!! it s very easy to have kids peak early in there 16-20 year old.... but if they want a long career with steady improvement, you are smart to supervise that he isn't pushed too much...at least on the running. years of consistency will do lots more than a year or 2 of big miles follow by injuries!!!

jonny - the kids doing the high mileage are thekids who don't have the benefit of programs like you are describing.  My son is lucky because he does.  Whehn his team mates go off on their 10 mile runs and 6 mile fartlek runs day after day he doesn't go.  He has a program given to him by a triathlon coach who monitors all of his workouts.  That's the p[oint I'm trying to make.  All I hear in this discussion is the same tired information.  If you want to run fast you have to run more, there is no benefit to running from other activities, blah, blah, BLah, BLAh, BLAH, BLAH, BLAAAAH!!  Meanwhile, the kid doing the least amount of running and a huge amoutn of swimming, and a decent amount of biking is running circles around the blah,blah,blah crowd.

So I look at your last sentence, and the rest of your post, and I ask myself why we keep telling new triathletes to run more. For crying out loud, triathlon is littered with injured people, many of whom never make it back to the sport. How are they differenrt from the kid just starting out?  How is the same program we agree they need to be on not a great idea for anyone new to the sport?  How are the same principles not good to make any of us faster?

In my mid, there is a way to build a fast race......and if anyone thinks running all of these junk miles on the advice of "run more, mostly easy, somtimes hard" and increase 10% per week and on and on is the answer.....I say NO!

2014-04-10 9:51 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
a simple answer : Time

Jr is a full time athlete with study on the side all kids are pretty much full time athlete in the sence that they have relatively low level of life responsability. they are kids. They train decent amount of hours.

Now, most age group struggle to put 1h a day into training. They are lucky to make it to the pool 2 perhaps 3 times a week for 1000-3000m. They jump on there bike on the weekend and run 20 miles a week.

Then, they come on a board and ask how they can improve there half marathon time. The answer is simple....they need to run more. They need to reach a certain level of activity that kids easily do but adult dont because of life/work/family etc.

my favorite athlete to coach are the kids/jr athlete....dedicated, open minded, passionate and MOST IMPORTANTLY.....NOT TIME RESTRICTED
2014-04-10 9:55 AM
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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

Originally posted by jonnyo a simple answer : Time Jr is a full time athlete with study on the side all kids are pretty much full time athlete in the sence that they have relatively low level of life responsability. they are kids. They train decent amount of hours. Now, most age group struggle to put 1h a day into training. They are lucky to make it to the pool 2 perhaps 3 times a week for 1000-3000m. They jump on there bike on the weekend and run 20 miles a week. Then, they come on a board and ask how they can improve there half marathon time. The answer is simple....they need to run more. They need to reach a certain level of activity that kids easily do but adult dont because of life/work/family etc. my favorite athlete to coach are the kids/jr athlete....dedicated, open minded, passionate and MOST IMPORTANTLY.....NOT TIME RESTRICTED

A fair pioint for sure, but not themost important one in my mind.  There are a lot of people putting in decent amount of time and not getting much faster.......check your messages please.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-10 10:06 AM


2014-04-10 10:33 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jonnyo a simple answer : Time Jr is a full time athlete with study on the side all kids are pretty much full time athlete in the sence that they have relatively low level of life responsability. they are kids. They train decent amount of hours. Now, most age group struggle to put 1h a day into training. They are lucky to make it to the pool 2 perhaps 3 times a week for 1000-3000m. They jump on there bike on the weekend and run 20 miles a week. Then, they come on a board and ask how they can improve there half marathon time. The answer is simple....they need to run more. They need to reach a certain level of activity that kids easily do but adult dont because of life/work/family etc. my favorite athlete to coach are the kids/jr athlete....dedicated, open minded, passionate and MOST IMPORTANTLY.....NOT TIME RESTRICTED

A fair pioint for sure, but not themost important one in my mind.  There are a lot of people putting in decent amount of time and not getting much faster.......check your messages please.

Exactly.  I've seen people putting in 40ish miles a week and still struggle with their 5k/10k.  Those people don't need more run volume.

2014-04-10 10:57 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jonnyo a simple answer : Time Jr is a full time athlete with study on the side all kids are pretty much full time athlete in the sence that they have relatively low level of life responsability. they are kids. They train decent amount of hours. Now, most age group struggle to put 1h a day into training. They are lucky to make it to the pool 2 perhaps 3 times a week for 1000-3000m. They jump on there bike on the weekend and run 20 miles a week. Then, they come on a board and ask how they can improve there half marathon time. The answer is simple....they need to run more. They need to reach a certain level of activity that kids easily do but adult dont because of life/work/family etc. my favorite athlete to coach are the kids/jr athlete....dedicated, open minded, passionate and MOST IMPORTANTLY.....NOT TIME RESTRICTED

A fair pioint for sure, but not themost important one in my mind.  There are a lot of people putting in decent amount of time and not getting much faster.......check your messages please.

Exactly.  I've seen people putting in 40ish miles a week and still struggle with their 5k/10k.  Those people don't need more run volume.




If someone is running 40 mpw and not improving, they need to change how that 40mpw is made up.
2014-04-10 12:42 PM
in reply to: jonnyo

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Originally posted by jonnyo

well, kicking on your back or with a board...... i highly doubt we'll ever see benefice for bike and run. i m open to be wrong. But right now, that is definitely not what scientific literature is telling us and what training methodology have proven so far.

age group that have sinking hips would be well serve to run more. That is the number 1 exercises that will prevent them from hip sinking on the run late in a race. As for core, nothing like running to developpe running core muscle...and nothing like biking to develop bike core muscles. specificity is what matter as transfert from sport to other sport does not happen as you claim it. it just isn't true.




So to play some devils advocate....

Take the "average" AG'er. Work in a chair at a desk for 40+ hours a week, then cycle 5, and run 3 (approx). That is almost 50 hours in hip closing activities. Just throwing it out there, and yes while I agree and know that science says specificity reigns supreme, that maybe opening the hips just a bit, whether it is in the kick (swimming), or specific exercises in strength training (Turkish Get-ups, BUlgarian split squats, etc).

One thing that is very common across almost all AG triathletes that I watch, work with, etc have weak hip girdles, those that do not usually come from a strong sport background. One part of this huge weakness in the hip girdle is an imbalance in muscles, and a weakness in specific areas as well.
2014-04-10 2:00 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: How fast is Gomez and the ITU circuit?
Interesting discussion. I'm going to go way off topic by actually going back on topic.
The ITU Grand Final in Edmonton is a 3.5 hour drive from my home. I can't wait - this is an opportunity that I can't miss. In fact I think I'll book a hotel room soon to lock this into my calendar. it would be perfect if the overall ranking comes down to the finish like it did in 2013.
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