General Discussion Triathlon Talk » IM run pace Rss Feed  
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2014-05-12 11:53 AM


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Subject: IM run pace
Does anyone have experience or any advice on goal pace for the ironman run? I'm trying to decide what to shoot for and don't want to set my sights too high or go out too fast and mess up race. The only info I can give is my open half marathon pace is 6:52. I have never ran more than 19 miles. My pace for my long runs is around 8 min pace and I would guess my open marathon pace would be about 8:00. Would 9:00 pace be too fast to shoot for in IM? Or should I just run what feels very comfortable and see what happens? Any advice would be great. Thanks


2014-05-12 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: IM run pace

A lot of your marathon pace depends on your bike fitness. I ran a 3:50 open marathon the year I did my IM.... and ran a 5:15 IM marathon. I thought I could go around a 4:15/ 4:30 marathon but underestimated how exhausted I'd be after a 7 hour bike (ETA: not a great cyclist in case you couldn't tell )



Edited by trishie 2014-05-12 12:01 PM
2014-05-12 12:13 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Originally posted by mchadcota2

Does anyone have experience or any advice on goal pace for the ironman run? I'm trying to decide what to shoot for and don't want to set my sights too high or go out too fast and mess up race. The only info I can give is my open half marathon pace is 6:52. I have never ran more than 19 miles. My pace for my long runs is around 8 min pace and I would guess my open marathon pace would be about 8:00. Would 9:00 pace be too fast to shoot for in IM? Or should I just run what feels very comfortable and see what happens? Any advice would be great. Thanks



a 1h40 HM is a 45 VDOT. According to this chart, a properly executed bike and adequate training you should be able to run 4h04 to 4h21
But there are many factors, including nutrition and pacing.
QT2 also has a good calculator, at least for HIM.



2014-05-12 12:22 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: IM run pace

Do you train with power on the bike?

There is a good calculator out there that estimates run times/paces in tris including IM. It assumes you paced right on bike and swim and nailed your nutrition correctly.

It used to be posted on Personal Best Nutrition's forums, but forums down and looked odd when I looked at them. I think Endurance Nation has it as well if you search around a bit but it is more geared for athletes that train and race with power.

Another calculator that I have seen is Qt2 systems. You can check out this one here.

Look at 4 keys of Ironman by Endurance Nation, is helpful to learn about pacing including the run.

Many try to run to fast and end up walking 10+ miles. Better to be a bit slower and pick up the pace or run same pace throughout. A guy that runs 8 m/m and runs whole IM at 9 m/m is a whole lot faster than running 15 miles at 8m/m and 11.3 at 15 m/m pace.

 

 

 

2014-05-12 12:24 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: IM run pace

The below should be useful, but a 6:52 HM pace is a 1:30 (51 vDot).  The OP's open marathon pace should be well under 8:00 and their goal for the IM should be sub-4hrs (assuming solid preperation, pacing, etc.).  I would target 8:30-8:45 pace as a rough guide.  Then try to hang on. 

 

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by mchadcota2 Does anyone have experience or any advice on goal pace for the ironman run? I'm trying to decide what to shoot for and don't want to set my sights too high or go out too fast and mess up race. The only info I can give is my open half marathon pace is 6:52. I have never ran more than 19 miles. My pace for my long runs is around 8 min pace and I would guess my open marathon pace would be about 8:00. Would 9:00 pace be too fast to shoot for in IM? Or should I just run what feels very comfortable and see what happens? Any advice would be great. Thanks
a 1h40 HM is a 45 VDOT. According to this chart, a properly executed bike and adequate training you should be able to run 4h04 to 4h21 But there are many factors, including nutrition and pacing. QT2 also has a good calculator, at least for HIM.

2014-05-12 12:27 PM
in reply to: KathyG

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Subject: RE: IM run pace

Here I found the chart I was looking for:

It is a chart based on VDot what runs times should be based on various length triathlons. Hopefully you have a recent running race you can use to figure out your current VDot and then you can see what your ideal time would be for an IM and use the low or high end of the chart based on your fitness. I'd aim for the low end always through mile 20-22 of the IM and pick up from there if you can.

 



2014-05-12 1:34 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

The below should be useful, but a 6:52 HM pace is a 1:30 (51 vDot). 



oops, mental math mistake :-)
2014-05-12 1:36 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: IM run pace

My IM run went from "Hold back, you don't want to go out too fast" type of run and turned into "Holy , this really fukn hurts" kind of run.

Although I could have trained more and I had an idea of what I was getting into, my run plan did not go so well.  Everything about the Swim, T1, Bike and T2 went according to plan. 

Then I got punched in the face by the IM Run.

Pace, schmace. 

Just enjoy the day.

 

 

2014-05-12 2:20 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Thanks a lot! That qt2 chart is pretty helpful to give a little guidance. I will start with that. Thanks for your help guys!
2014-05-12 2:41 PM
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2014-05-12 2:47 PM
in reply to: siouxcityhawk

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2014-05-12 2:50 PM
in reply to: marcag


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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Thanks for posting the chart. Pretty interesting for me to look at. I'm pretty new to HIM (2) and IM (1) distances. I went into my first HIM coming off a 1:39 open half mary. I wasn't properly trained for the HIM on the bike and didn't really have a nutrition plan. Ran a 2:07 after completely tanking around mile 8. First IM was 3.5 months later and I ran 4:10. Went ahead with a second HIM about 6 weeks later and ran 2:00. Needless to say, I haven't figured out pacing for the HIM distance yet. I'm racing my 3rd HIM this weekend and I'm coming off a 1:33 open half mary. First race with a power meter as well so hopefully it will be a learning experience using that for bike pacing.
2014-05-12 3:06 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: IM run pace

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by siouxcityhawk

  Everything about the Swim, T1, Bike and T2 went according to plan. 

 

Then I got punched in the face by the IM Run.

 

 

Most people get 'punched in the face in the IM run' I suppose, as it's tough. I've only ever pulled off one IM marathon that I was very happy with, but most of them went about as well as my training could have predicted.

I would suggest for the majority (and no, I cannot possibly know in your particular case if this is so) of folks who feel that their "Swim, Bike and transitions went according to plan", that the training/plan were overly optimistic for the training and conditioning in that said swim and bike.

It's the fact that the run is the last discipline that we feel that is where things 'blew up', but I would actually suggest it blew up much earlier and that many of us feel the effects of overly optimistically paced swims and bikes by the time of the run, as opposed to the actual run itself.

Probably very true.  It just feels better to say my run blew up and that I didn't cook my legs on the bike. 

2014-05-12 3:31 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: IM run pace

Originally posted by Fred D

To I think that this graph represents 2 completely opposite things in triathlon for me:

1. It's really cool, and can help some with pacing. The big caveat is that the stand alone run times are supposed to be based on your current fitness while ALSO training correctly for the other 2 sports. i.e.; can't use that stand alone 10K from the fall when you weren't biking or swimming much if at all. Also, it's based on a similar level of commitment and training to the other sports, i.e.; if you slack on the swim, which the majority of Im athletes I've ever known have done, a lot, then this model falls apart quickly.

2. It sets unrealistic expectations for the majority of triathletes, as they don't account for the points I just made in #1. This often results in an overly optimistic early pace on the run and an epic slowdown in the last half of the marathon.

Certainly good for discussion though.

I think the "Low" numbers aren't too unrealistic IF (and this is a big if) -- if you don't overbike.  Most people think they're not overbiking, but it happens all the time.  Particularly in a first IM.  I've done 6 and I'd say my bike was properly paced in 2 of them.

2014-05-12 3:51 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Here's another part of the puzzle

It's how to pace the bike
However it assumes you have a properly established FTP
And of course, you didn't overswim, you have the critical bike volume, you have critical run volume, proper nutrition and proper pacing on the run.



2014-05-12 3:57 PM
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Subject: RE: IM run pace

*and assuming it's not Tahoe

Edit: that was sort of a joke, but a very hilly race can cause you problems even beyond what your IF numbers would predict.  If it's steep and your cadence drops a lot, for example.



Edited by spudone 2014-05-12 3:59 PM


2014-05-12 4:16 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Can only speak from personal experience. October of 2011, I ran a 3:18 at Chicago. 3 months later in Jan I started training for my IM. I ran a 1:35 and change at a half iron in July of 2012 and then for IMWI in Sept I ran 3:29 and change. From the sound of where you are, it seems u were right around where I was. I think at the time of IM, I could have ran around a 1:28 half and a 305-310 marathon.

Instead of aiming for a certain time, i would recommend learning how to not bonk during the run. There are plenty of runners that are way faster than I was but ran 4-4.5 hour marathons at Ironman becuase they bonked. If you bonk and have to walk a mile or two, its not going to matter how well you can run.

To not Bonk it is ALL about the bike.

Focus on:
1. Biking volume: You need to be comfortable on the bike. If you are under-trained on the bike, your running ability will not matter because you will bonk on the run and willbe walking the run.

2. Biking pacing: If you exert all your energy on the bike, You won't have the gas tank left to run and will again resort to walking.
3. Hills on bike: Don't crush hills on the race, going hard on the hills may make your bike split 5 minutes or so faster but you will burn all your glycogen and will not have it for the run. Again you won't be running, you will walking. For me, I trained real hard on hills but took it a bit easier during the race. What is a few minute different bike split when u r racing for 10-12 hours?
4. Nutrition: Don't take enough in, your are going to have a problem. Take too much in or were not training with it so your body isn't used to it- You might get sick. Both will again lead to you walking. Make sure to find what works for you with nutrition while making sure to take enough in.



2014-05-13 10:46 AM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Originally posted by spudone

*and assuming it's not Tahoe

Edit: that was sort of a joke, but a very hilly race can cause you problems even beyond what your IF numbers would predict.  If it's steep and your cadence drops a lot, for example.




I have "beaten" the IM-high numbers in 2/3 IMs.

The one I didn't? Tahoe.

It blew my legs up like nobody's business. I knew getting off the bike that the run was going to hurt. A lot.

At Tahoe I missed the IM-low, but not by much.

FWIW, I don't feel like I am a strong biker so I tend to underbike and then overachieve on the run. Tahoe was such a difficult bike course that no matter how much I tried to hold back on the bike, I had to get up the hills and it made for a long final 26.2.
2014-05-13 11:46 AM
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Subject: RE: IM run pace

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by siouxcityhawk

  Everything about the Swim, T1, Bike and T2 went according to plan. 

 

Then I got punched in the face by the IM Run.

 

 

Most people get 'punched in the face in the IM run' I suppose, as it's tough. I've only ever pulled off one IM marathon that I was very happy with, but most of them went about as well as my training could have predicted.

I would suggest for the majority (and no, I cannot possibly know in your particular case if this is so) of folks who feel that their "Swim, Bike and transitions went according to plan", that the training/plan were overly optimistic for the training and conditioning in that said swim and bike.

It's the fact that the run is the last discipline that we feel that is where things 'blew up', but I would actually suggest it blew up much earlier and that many of us feel the effects of overly optimistically paced swims and bikes by the time of the run, as opposed to the actual run itself.

This, and this, and 1,000,000 x this.  I don't care if your VDot is 80, you overcook the swim and/or bike, you're getting hit in the face in an IM run at some point.  And for most mortals it's simply too long a race to recover from.   And then there is simple execution.  My last one, I underbiked (I believe) based on testing and prior rides, but nutrition and hydration caught up to me, and I got hit about mile 11 of the run. 

I think it's hard*unwise?)  to base an IM pace for a run on prior half marathon (or even marathon) run times, especially for your first. But then again I am a terrible runner so no one to take advice from.  Just a gut feeling.  There's too many other variables that will sneak in during a long IM day, and there is so much opportunity for things to go wrong.  IM is all about adaptation on the fly, because it's likely that whatever does go wrong is something you never could have anticipated.



Edited by ChrisM 2014-05-13 11:47 AM
2014-05-14 4:03 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Time goal for a first IM marathon? The goal should be to run the entire thing.
2014-05-14 8:50 AM
in reply to: jarvy01

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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Originally posted by jarvy01

Time goal for a first IM marathon? The goal should be to run the entire thing.


I more or less agree with you. I am doing IMTX as my first IM this weekend and my main goal is to finish with a smile on my face wanting to do another IM in the future.

However, my competitive nature wants to establish goals and I think that it is ok to set some times to be able to develop a race strategy that can take me to the finish line as fast and safest as possible. In my case, I set conservative goals for the swim and bike (I know I should be able to beat them any day in training) to make sure I do not overdo neither the swim nor, especially, the bike). I also set a conservative goal for the run to help me pace myself during the first 13-18 miles and push it up a little if I feel good after that.

I should be able to beat all the time goals I set, but if I don't, I am sure I will learn something valuable for my next race to help me finish it faster.


2014-05-14 9:42 AM
in reply to: davidfedez


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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Originally posted by davidfedez

Originally posted by jarvy01

Time goal for a first IM marathon? The goal should be to run the entire thing.


I more or less agree with you. I am doing IMTX as my first IM this weekend and my main goal is to finish with a smile on my face wanting to do another IM in the future.

However, my competitive nature wants to establish goals and I think that it is ok to set some times to be able to develop a race strategy that can take me to the finish line as fast and safest as possible. In my case, I set conservative goals for the swim and bike (I know I should be able to beat them any day in training) to make sure I do not overdo neither the swim nor, especially, the bike). I also set a conservative goal for the run to help me pace myself during the first 13-18 miles and push it up a little if I feel good after that.

I should be able to beat all the time goals I set, but if I don't, I am sure I will learn something valuable for my next race to help me finish it faster.


X2

May not beat my set goals, but two things are going to happen. I will finish, and I will have fun doing it. Even if the fun doesn't start for a few days after IMTX.
2014-05-14 11:43 AM
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Subject: RE: IM run pace
Originally posted by davidfedez

Originally posted by jarvy01

Time goal for a first IM marathon? The goal should be to run the entire thing.


I more or less agree with you. I am doing IMTX as my first IM this weekend and my main goal is to finish with a smile on my face wanting to do another IM in the future.

However, my competitive nature wants to establish goals and I think that it is ok to set some times to be able to develop a race strategy that can take me to the finish line as fast and safest as possible. In my case, I set conservative goals for the swim and bike (I know I should be able to beat them any day in training) to make sure I do not overdo neither the swim nor, especially, the bike). I also set a conservative goal for the run to help me pace myself during the first 13-18 miles and push it up a little if I feel good after that.

I should be able to beat all the time goals I set, but if I don't, I am sure I will learn something valuable for my next race to help me finish it faster.


I agree. It's important to come up with some sort of race plan. That's what gets you through the day, but for a first time IM, don't be surprised if things don't go exactly as planned.

I did my first IM last summer (doing my second this summer), so I am by no means an expert. I can only say that it was easy to say "I'm going to run x pace for my run leg," but it was much, much harder to execute the exact pace I had planned. I visited every port-o-john along the run course of IMMT up to mile 20. My run pace was much slower than I had anticipated. I'm going to have an overall time goal for my next 140.6, but I'm going to be a little more flexible with how I set my goals for each leg.

**edited to add: Good luck & have fun!!!

Edited by jarvy01 2014-05-14 11:45 AM
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