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SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! (Page 104)
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 2014-12-18 12:23 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Master  2621    Mechanicsburg, PA |  Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by fisherman76 Nothing against the fine folks of Louisville, but it's a pit of hell compared with the incredible beauty of Vancouver. I've found myself thinking Vancouver might be one of the most beautiful places on Earth, if not THE. LOL, well racing in the pit of hell just adds to the challenge, right? I tend to agree with you on Vancouver and parts north The one issue is, well, Canadians.... YEAH! They are to damn fast!!!!! |
| 2014-12-18 12:25 PM in reply to: Fred D |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by spudone . Are we getting a new thread set up? I would suggest someone other than me start the next version of the SBR thread, really almost all of you here are capable of getting it going. I'm laying pretty low on BT these days... I vote for one of the girls this time..................or Jason  |
| 2014-12-18 12:42 PM in reply to: BrotherTri |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by BrotherTri Originally posted by Fred D I vote for one of the girls this time..................or Jason Originally posted by spudone . Are we getting a new thread set up? I would suggest someone other than me start the next version of the SBR thread, really almost all of you here are capable of getting it going. I'm laying pretty low on BT these days... Given the success and race results of the girls this season...I feel honored to be associated with them. I'll do it. But again, I'll stage it later so that the other groups can fill. The purpose of this group is just to be SBR discussion. Anyone can feel free to be a mentor or mentee of another group and still participate here. I just don't want those looking for a true mentor to come here first and realize it's not quite what they were looking for. |
 2014-12-18 1:11 PM in reply to: BrotherTri |
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| 2014-12-18 1:13 PM in reply to: Jason N |
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| 2014-12-18 1:18 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Fred D Jason, u do realize that James said one of the girls or Jason, don't you? Is he implying that your man card is still on recall? I'll let James clarify ;-) I do realize my man card is still on recall...just like my snow shovel... |
| 2014-12-18 1:21 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 5557  , California | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by BrotherTri Originally posted by Fred D I vote for one of the girls this time..................or Jason Originally posted by spudone . Are we getting a new thread set up? I would suggest someone other than me start the next version of the SBR thread, really almost all of you here are capable of getting it going. I'm laying pretty low on BT these days... Given the success and race results of the girls this season...I feel honored to be associated with them. I'll do it. But again, I'll stage it later so that the other groups can fill. The purpose of this group is just to be SBR discussion. Anyone can feel free to be a mentor or mentee of another group and still participate here. I just don't want those looking for a true mentor to come here first and realize it's not quite what they were looking for. We can be the Alcatraz support group |
| 2014-12-18 1:35 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Fred D Canadians are Fast, and crafty! And they make pretty good beer. Honestly, if a friend was not planning on Louisville it would not even be on the radar. And come to think of it, this guy tneds to flake out on everything he does (although he is a multiple kona qualifier, so a fine racer), so he probably wouldn't even end up doing it and I'd end up alone..... |
| 2014-12-18 1:57 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by Fred D Canadians are Fast, and crafty! And they make pretty good beer. Honestly, if a friend was not planning on Louisville it would not even be on the radar. And come to think of it, this guy tneds to flake out on everything he does (although he is a multiple kona qualifier, so a fine racer), so he probably wouldn't even end up doing it and I'd end up alone..... The dollar exchange rate must make it really interesting for you guys. 86c to the $. Wow. |
| 2014-12-18 2:27 PM in reply to: Jason N |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2014-12-18 2:28 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2014-12-18 2:29 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! |
| 2014-12-19 1:16 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! So I did a swim CSS test today to determine my Critical Swim Speed (CSS). I based it off this site http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html From the test my CSS is 1:20 per 100yds. Not sure if this right or not but it just seam slow to me. The test was 400TT in @5:10 then a 200TT in @2:30. Of course that was after a warm up of 1000+ yards. My total swim was this: WU 500 @7:16, 100k fins/board, 6x50 on :50 (:34’s-:36’s), 100k fins/board, 2x 50 @:38 Test 400TT @5:10 50ez 100s 200TT @2:30 Finished with CD: 50ez, 100s, 2x300p/200s, 300ez FR/BK The site suggest for a sub 5:45 for 400 some work outs which I will incorporate into my swim and see what happens. Bottom line I am now only swimming 2x a weeks consistently. So my swim fitness is not that bad considering. Any thoughts form the group? Thanks |
| 2014-12-19 1:25 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by BrotherTri where does this number come from ? you are faster than this right ? Edited by marcag 2014-12-19 1:32 PM |
| 2014-12-19 1:49 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Off that site there are 3 columns for suggested workouts. You swim sub 5:45 for 400m: 10x200m with 20sec recovery or 5x400m with 40sec recovery or 18x100m with 10sec recovery or 3x600m with 60sec recovery |
| 2014-12-19 1:58 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! I kind of think I am in a good spot. As I think I swim pretty comfortable @1:20 per 100yds now. Now @2..4 mile distance maybe @1:23 per mile. That is swimming @2x week, so not bad. When I start swimming more 3-5x a week can I get that to 1:15 per 100? EDIT I have a typical non swimming pacing ability. I did not grow up swimming. I feel those that have do much better at pacing. All of my race swim splits are negative. I am not complaining, just need better pacing. Oh and to get faster. Edited by BrotherTri 2014-12-19 2:08 PM |
| 2014-12-19 3:27 PM in reply to: BrotherTri |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by BrotherTri I kind of think I am in a good spot. As I think I swim pretty comfortable @1:20 per 100yds now. Now @2..4 mile distance maybe @1:23 per mile. That is swimming @2x week, so not bad. When I start swimming more 3-5x a week can I get that to 1:15 per 100? EDIT I have a typical non swimming pacing ability. I did not grow up swimming. I feel those that have do much better at pacing. All of my race swim splits are negative. I am not complaining, just need better pacing. Oh and to get faster. I grew up swimming, but I'm not fast now (combination of things)... my CSS is around 1:45 at the moment. Pacing-wise, I don't think I could really tell you exactly how fast I'm going on a given set. But I'm suddenly aware of when my form takes a nosedive due to fatigue... maybe that's where the "water feel" comes into play. |
| 2014-12-20 6:11 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Brought this over here since some people here could probably contribute. Originally posted by brigby1 Had a thought, have you ever tried adding a plot of a VO2 curve on top of something like this one? Might be a little tricky since while VO2 max and Threshold can affect each other, they don't necessarily stay at a fixed percent of each other. I've had thoughts of this rolling around a bit. Curious what others thought. The thing about this graph is it assumes a few things 1) The best way to improve an intensity level is to train at it 2) The more time you can spend at a certain intensity level the better to improve that intensity level 3) Given the intensity levels discussed you can maintain them for a "long time" and you can recover quickly. What some of the stuff coming out says is that training at VO2max level improves threshold more than Threshold work. Which goes against #1 For #2 and #3, there seems to be time in recovery that actually counts as work time, so it may be hard to measure/separate the two. For example, the 30s/30s intervals. I think they showed the reason that they were so effective was that during the recovery phase, you were actually getting some of the benefit of the work phase. So while if you did 10x30/30, that is 5minutes of work and 5 minutes recovery, it's actually 8min of work, 2 min recovery (I am making those up) Maybe this is why they found 4x8 was more effective than 4x16 or 4x4. I don't know....just throwing it out there Edited by marcag 2014-12-20 6:33 AM |
| 2014-12-20 8:14 AM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Hmm, yes, a lot of people might not be able to get past those thoughts. There might be some things to work out to clarify it better too. I don't know if looking at those two in Table 2 here would help as much, not just yet. The idea from there is that an "Effect on VO2" plot would have a peak at a higher percent of FTP. The plot would then show the two crossing at some point up around FTP and it's somewhere from there up that the harder work would go. The idea for the harder work would not just to go hard, but to push the emphasis on VO2 more so than on threshold. From the table, everything lower than that crossing would have more of an emphasis on threshold. Zone 2 is well down from the peak of the Threshold plot, but the effect is still greater on threshold there than on VO2. The lower stress/time is made up for by adding in a lot more time. Such a plot could not show everything and could certainly be misinterpreted & misused in a number of ways (as can many things), but does this basic idea make sense? The "Effect on Threshold" plot may indeed show threshold itself is stressed most, but is most certainly not a plan as other factors not shown may limit this development. The plot doesn't show all things that affect threshold development. Something like stunted VO2 development can limit this as it's always behind until the crossover. Plus the longer term effects on the body of consistently doing more moderate hard work we've seen (and I've experienced myself). |
| 2014-12-20 10:34 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by marcag Brought this over here since some people here could probably contribute. Originally posted by brigby1 Had a thought, have you ever tried adding a plot of a VO2 curve on top of something like this one? Might be a little tricky since while VO2 max and Threshold can affect each other, they don't necessarily stay at a fixed percent of each other. I've had thoughts of this rolling around a bit. Curious what others thought. The thing about this graph is it assumes a few things 1) The best way to improve an intensity level is to train at it 2) The more time you can spend at a certain intensity level the better to improve that intensity level 3) Given the intensity levels discussed you can maintain them for a "long time" and you can recover quickly. What some of the stuff coming out says is that training at VO2max level improves threshold more than Threshold work. Which goes against #1 For #2 and #3, there seems to be time in recovery that actually counts as work time, so it may be hard to measure/separate the two. For example, the 30s/30s intervals. I think they showed the reason that they were so effective was that during the recovery phase, you were actually getting some of the benefit of the work phase. So while if you did 10x30/30, that is 5minutes of work and 5 minutes recovery, it's actually 8min of work, 2 min recovery (I am making those up) Maybe this is why they found 4x8 was more effective than 4x16 or 4x4. I don't know....just throwing it out there yes it is true that the benefit goes beyond the training time-enzymes cannot be turned 'off' that quickly (in simple terms) but it takes a special athlete to do a lot of true vo2 max work, 'cuz it's really hard *I remember first reading about 30/30 in Kevin Beck's website around 2003 or 2004? Billat was pretty fast herself back then http://www.billat.net/attachments/041_34.2001-Billat-intervaltraini... i think the trick, as always, is to figure out what any individual can take as a training stress and how much recovery is needed without ending up on the sidelines the multipaces needed and what the dose of each of those (easy/tempo/vo2 etc) is where the athlete and coach must come together ... but the sad reality is for most AG athletes, overall volume is just pitiful, due to time/life/effort constraints Edited by dtoce 2014-12-20 10:43 AM |
| 2014-12-20 11:10 AM in reply to: dtoce |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2014-12-20 12:46 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by brigby1 Hmm, yes, a lot of people might not be able to get past those thoughts. There might be some things to work out to clarify it better too. I don't know if looking at those two in Table 2 here would help as much, not just yet. The idea from there is that an "Effect on VO2" plot would have a peak at a higher percent of FTP. The plot would then show the two crossing at some point up around FTP and it's somewhere from there up that the harder work would go. The idea for the harder work would not just to go hard, but to push the emphasis on VO2 more so than on threshold. From the table, everything lower than that crossing would have more of an emphasis on threshold. Zone 2 is well down from the peak of the Threshold plot, but the effect is still greater on threshold there than on VO2. The lower stress/time is made up for by adding in a lot more time. Such a plot could not show everything and could certainly be misinterpreted & misused in a number of ways (as can many things), but does this basic idea make sense? The "Effect on Threshold" plot may indeed show threshold itself is stressed most, but is most certainly not a plan as other factors not shown may limit this development. The plot doesn't show all things that affect threshold development. Something like stunted VO2 development can limit this as it's always behind until the crossover. Plus the longer term effects on the body of consistently doing more moderate hard work we've seen (and I've experienced myself). I have read this 10x and every time I think I am getting closer to understanding. I am going to run on it but any other explanations may help me cross the "I got it" line. |
| 2014-12-20 12:55 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by brigby1 I have read this 10x and every time I think I am getting closer to understanding. I am going to run on it but any other explanations may help me cross the "I got it" line. Hmm, yes, a lot of people might not be able to get past those thoughts. There might be some things to work out to clarify it better too. I don't know if looking at those two in Table 2 here would help as much, not just yet. The idea from there is that an "Effect on VO2" plot would have a peak at a higher percent of FTP. The plot would then show the two crossing at some point up around FTP and it's somewhere from there up that the harder work would go. The idea for the harder work would not just to go hard, but to push the emphasis on VO2 more so than on threshold. From the table, everything lower than that crossing would have more of an emphasis on threshold. Zone 2 is well down from the peak of the Threshold plot, but the effect is still greater on threshold there than on VO2. The lower stress/time is made up for by adding in a lot more time. Such a plot could not show everything and could certainly be misinterpreted & misused in a number of ways (as can many things), but does this basic idea make sense? The "Effect on Threshold" plot may indeed show threshold itself is stressed most, but is most certainly not a plan as other factors not shown may limit this development. The plot doesn't show all things that affect threshold development. Something like stunted VO2 development can limit this as it's always behind until the crossover. Plus the longer term effects on the body of consistently doing more moderate hard work we've seen (and I've experienced myself). Right there with you on that one! |
| 2014-12-20 3:40 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! |
| 2014-12-20 8:34 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by marcaggot my zwift invite Way to rain on Fred's velo reality parade....lol |
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