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SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! (Page 54)
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 2014-08-29 1:43 PM in reply to: marcag |
 Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster Rusty is right, the LG P09 was one of the two that tested fast for most people. The other was the Giro Advantage 2 which is a very affordable helmet. Also consider the same helmet may be better or worse than another just based on the direction of the wind. For example, in strong crosswinds, apparently the Giro Air Attack does well. The best way, if possible is to find a place that allows 30 day returns and to test for yourself. I have become VERY sceptical of numbers coming out of wind tunnels. Very skeptical. I know that helmets are very individual and test out very differently depending on whose noddle it sits on, btu I recall there being some consensus over on ST about one of the newer helmets that tended to work well for a range of people. It didn't have a name, rather it was some letters and/or digits but for the life of me I can't remember who the manufacturer - anyone know? Oh, and the new Catlike Aero helmets posted on ST from Interbike look really nice. But the tunnel said I would save 15 watts if I shaved my legs!!! |
| 2014-08-29 1:53 PM in reply to: marcag |
Elite  3779      Ontario | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster Rusty is right, the LG P09 was one of the two that tested fast for most people. The other was the Giro Advantage 2 which is a very affordable helmet. Also consider the same helmet may be better or worse than another just based on the direction of the wind. For example, in strong crosswinds, apparently the Giro Air Attack does well. The best way, if possible is to find a place that allows 30 day returns and to test for yourself. I have become VERY sceptical of numbers coming out of wind tunnels. Very skeptical. I know that helmets are very individual and test out very differently depending on whose noddle it sits on, btu I recall there being some consensus over on ST about one of the newer helmets that tended to work well for a range of people. It didn't have a name, rather it was some letters and/or digits but for the life of me I can't remember who the manufacturer - anyone know? Oh, and the new Catlike Aero helmets posted on ST from Interbike look really nice. That was the one - thank you Rusty. Now to Marc - I thought that lots of people viewed the wind tunnel as the b/all end/all when it came to aero numbers. I personally really like the idea of that track in California that does the aero testing, but the tunnel seemed like a great choice (if you had the $$$) - why the sceptisim? |
| 2014-08-29 1:54 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by ligersandtions I'm in -- can we do it in Hawaii? Or maybe socal? Somewhere where the weather won't suck Non sucky weather is #1 on the requirements list. I would be there! But, heck - it would be cool if he took all that spare time he has laying around and did a virtual camp - set us all up with the same/similar protocols and we all did it on our own, testing what we had, etc. Could be a very good, fun and enlightening experience and discussion! I'm in for either! My vote is, of course, for Austin. Dangerous part would be that I'd have to buy a new bike so I could compare more than just helmets. Matt |
We even have a veloway... | 2014-08-29 1:59 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster Rusty is right, the LG P09 was one of the two that tested fast for most people. The other was the Giro Advantage 2 which is a very affordable helmet. Also consider the same helmet may be better or worse than another just based on the direction of the wind. For example, in strong crosswinds, apparently the Giro Air Attack does well. The best way, if possible is to find a place that allows 30 day returns and to test for yourself. I have become VERY sceptical of numbers coming out of wind tunnels. Very skeptical. I know that helmets are very individual and test out very differently depending on whose noddle it sits on, btu I recall there being some consensus over on ST about one of the newer helmets that tended to work well for a range of people. It didn't have a name, rather it was some letters and/or digits but for the life of me I can't remember who the manufacturer - anyone know? Oh, and the new Catlike Aero helmets posted on ST from Interbike look really nice. But the tunnel said I would save 15 watts if I shaved my legs!!! You know that is not the reason we shave our legs. |
| 2014-08-29 2:02 PM in reply to: marcag |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by marcag Rusty is right... (irrelevant stuff snipped) Quoted for posterity. |
| 2014-08-29 7:01 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by TankBoy Neil - I think the helmet you are referring to is the LG P-09, maybe? I replace my helmets every 3 seasons or so, and am going to spring for a new one as well for next year (besides Arend said I needed to get one with red in it). I was just looking on ST at all the new helmets that are coming out - looks like that market is about to bust wide open and it will then be IMPOSSIBLE to decide what works best. heh. Wait, you haven't done that yet? You're losing your touch. I am only slightly (SLIGHTLY!) embarrassed to say that I almost put some red stickers on my helmet for nationals based on your keen observation, but I just simply ran out of time! Be careful. He's up to something ... |
| 2014-08-29 7:03 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Today's swim had a 300 IM and a pair of 400's that were free down, IM back. Did all the fly where it was supposed to be as well. |
| 2014-08-29 9:33 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by brigby1 Nice job Ben - that is seriously legit. Today's swim had a 300 IM and a pair of 400's that were free down, IM back. Did all the fly where it was supposed to be as well. |
| 2014-08-30 7:31 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by GoFaster Now to Marc - I thought that lots of people viewed the wind tunnel as the b/all end/all when it came to aero numbers. I personally really like the idea of that track in California that does the aero testing, but the tunnel seemed like a great choice (if you had the $$$) - why the sceptisim? I do believe the tunnel is the ultimate measuring tool but I believe you will get a lot more info through field testing because it's more real world and we can do an infinite amount of passes, ideally while doing training. My comment was more about the numbers manufacturers publish. They are very hard to pick apart what is what. For example, they publish numbers that bike X is 20 watts faster than bike Y. But once you start picking things apart, you realize frame X is actually 3 watts faster than Y. The other 17 watts are a combination of aerobar, fork and other things. You could upgrade these at 1/4 of the price of buying frame X. I could take my 2009 P2, change aerobars, put SRAM wireless shifting (cool and no cables) and get a custom paint job. I would have a way cooler bike, probably more aero and cheaper than buying a new P3. Take some of the independent testing done and you see the numbers are way closer between bike X and Y than the manufacturers publish. Aero testing is really complex in that there is some much interaction between things. Helmet X in position Y behaves differently than in position Z. Rear drag changes with body position.... I have been to a wind tunnel. It is very accurate but it has it's problems. First of all, you are very time limited because it's so expensive. You have to be super efficient and super consistent. In theory you would need to test (configuration A), make a change (configuration B) , test, go back and confirm configuration A. This is very time consuming. Perfect example, in 2012 I went into a tunnel. The Kask Bambino tested much faster than the A2. That is a $500 helmet. This year my LBS who had a 30 day return policy had one in stock so I tested in the field. I could not get it to be faster than the A2. I was so confused with the discrepancy with the tunnel results, I test 3 times. I went back to my tunnel results, with pictures and realized I may have not been 100% in the same position between 2 runs in the tunnel and I probably dropped my head more giving inconsistent results in the tunnel. Had I done 2 passes of tests, maybe I would have caught this, but you can't do dozens of tests. If you are a very experienced rider that can replicate a position perfectly and hold it perfectly and have lots of time, yes, but I am not that. Second of all, it doesn't matter what the tunnel says, what happens in real life matters. Real life is swirling winds, changing yaw, small moments of drag change (passing or being passed)..... I test a lot but I make my tests part of my workout. Yesterday I rode 80km doing tests. I found a flat stretch of road and was doing 4km intervals are various power levels to confirm some changes. I look at the data and if it's consistent, I can tell what is truly faster and what isn't The velodrome is a cool idea although I am not sure it's the best for equipment testing. There is 0 yaw. You will not see wheel difference, helmet difference is only partial, yhyrdation systems is only partial. Position testing makes sense. Field testing sometimes yield weird results but when you get them, you simply re-test. Yesterday during my test I got a really weird pass. There was probably a significant gust of wind. But you can see it in the data. I do believe you need a good understanding of how things work to do field testing and you are continuously learning and adapting your test protocols. See you all in February in Charlettetown for testing in the IglooDome |
| 2014-08-30 8:26 AM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Yeah, think the tunnel itself is fine, but as more begin to look for this data, more will begin to game the system in ways such as marc suggested. So it's not really the tunnel itself that's the issue. Many who use it to advertise the effectiveness of their product or device will likely choose the data or set things up to make theirs look as good as possible. I haven't been to a tunnel, but just being on a trainer I've tried holding various head positions. Some may seem fine when indoors being held in place on a stationary trainer, but when outside I just can't bring myself to stay there. A lot of that has to do with being able to see far enough ahead. Be it road obstacles or other people, just not comfortable with how close in things have to be before I see it. Just another difference to realize. |
| 2014-08-30 11:26 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! The velodrome is a cool idea although I am not sure it's the best for equipment testing. There is 0 yaw. You will not see wheel difference, helmet difference is only partial, yhyrdation systems is only partial. Position testing makes sense. My velodrome (Marymoor) is outdoor, so if there's some wind, you're changing yaw all the way around the axis. Maybe a little closer to "real world" usage. But the main thing is that it's nice to have a completely flat place to test with no need to ever stop. |
| 2014-08-30 7:38 PM in reply to: Jason N |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Last road race of the season tomorrow. 112 miles around Oahu with a field of about 100. No real expectations...just trying to stay with the lead group as long as possible before they crank it up on the short hills the last 30 miles. Not crashing would be a good day. |
| 2014-08-30 7:40 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Jason N Last road race of the season tomorrow. 112 miles around Oahu with a field of about 100. No real expectations...just trying to stay with the lead group as long as possible before they crank it up on the short hills the last 30 miles. Not crashing would be a good day. Good luck Jason! That sounds...... really hard! |
 2014-08-31 8:00 AM in reply to: Jason N |
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| 2014-08-31 8:02 AM in reply to: marcag |
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| 2014-08-31 12:33 PM in reply to: Fred D |
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| 2014-08-31 2:15 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Fred D OK, decided to jump in to tri talk with a 'helpful' post. God help me... Powercranks Fred? Now you've gone too far.... |
| 2014-08-31 2:48 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
| Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Had an interesting taper ride this morning.... Cliffs notes version: got chased by a cow (seriously!!), friend had a mechanical so we walked about half a mile before someone offered her a ride and I met her at the gas station that was about two miles away, got absolutely dumped on for 16 miles which resulted in my key fob being dead when I got back to the car -- eventually robbed the battery out of my power meter (so I'll have to remember to put a new one in before the race next weekend!) All in all, a two hour ride that took over four hours from start to finish! It wasn't all terrible though (actually somewhat comical) -- legs feel like they're coming around. Taper is kinda awesome this time around |
| 2014-08-31 4:11 PM in reply to: ligersandtions |
| Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by ligersandtions Had an interesting taper ride this morning.... Cliffs notes version: got chased by a cow (seriously!!), friend had a mechanical so we walked about half a mile before someone offered her a ride and I met her at the gas station that was about two miles away, got absolutely dumped on for 16 miles which resulted in my key fob being dead when I got back to the car -- eventually robbed the battery out of my power meter (so I'll have to remember to put a new one in before the race next weekend!) All in all, a two hour ride that took over four hours from start to finish! It wasn't all terrible though (actually somewhat comical) -- legs feel like they're coming around. Taper is kinda awesome this time around Well, it sounds like you've got all of the weirdness out of the way and race day should go smooth as butter! |
| 2014-08-31 4:14 PM in reply to: axteraa |
| Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Anyone have any thoughts on Power2max PMs? I bought a set of FLO 30s and was going to get a PT laced into it but I'm considering Power2max instead with the sale they have on now. They've been around a couple of years now and I haven't seen any big complaints about them. DC Rainmaker seems to consider them a viable option now that they've got their initial kinks worked out. |
| 2014-08-31 4:19 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! In DC for a few days on our way to NY tor SOS. Embarrassed to say it's my first time ever, as a nearly 50 year old. I am a sucker for patriotism, I've been known to tear up at the anthem a time or two, so it's pretty awe inspiring to go for a run among all the monuments I've read about all my life. but props to folks that travel a lot and train. I was in central cal for two days last week, San Francisco for two days, then travel to here. Got as many of my workouts in as I could, but between access and food issues it's hard to do it well. I suppose you get used to it also props to those that train in heat and humidity. Didn't make my 6 am (3 am for me) wake up call to run so went out at 8 and it was already sultry and soggy. Way too humid for me |
| 2014-08-31 4:41 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Fred D What would you suggest as a good primer for learning how to test (field)? this is a good one http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/wattage/cda/indirect-cda.pdf |
| 2014-08-31 5:32 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by ChrisM In DC for a few days on our way to NY tor SOS. Embarrassed to say it's my first time ever, as a nearly 50 year old. I am a sucker for patriotism, I've been known to tear up at the anthem a time or two, so it's pretty awe inspiring to go for a run among all the monuments I've read about all my life. but props to folks that travel a lot and train. I was in central cal for two days last week, San Francisco for two days, then travel to here. Got as many of my workouts in as I could, but between access and food issues it's hard to do it well. I suppose you get used to it also props to those that train in heat and humidity. Didn't make my 6 am (3 am for me) wake up call to run so went out at 8 and it was already sultry and soggy. Way too humid for me I don't know much about that set, but if I was in the market, would find it very hard to look past the new Quarq Elsa on the Shimano 9000. The 4-arm one that you can change rings yourself and will fit 50/34 to 55/42. |
| 2014-08-31 6:16 PM in reply to: axteraa |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by axteraa Anyone have any thoughts on Power2max PMs? People that have them seem to be happy. |
| 2014-08-31 6:21 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by axteraa People that have them seem to be happy. Anyone have any thoughts on Power2max PMs? Justifiably? And I'm actually asking there in spite the the little snarkiness. People like lots of stuff if Fred isn't around to save them from themselves. |
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