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2014-08-31 9:29 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Epic day today.  Conditions were fast, but really hot as the normal tradewinds weren't blowing.  Stuck with the lead group till about the point I expected but spent a lot of energy chasing down attacks or spending a little time at the front when I could have simply stayed back in the draft.  Staying up front did help me avoid a crash that split the lead group from about 50 to 30 though.  At mile 98 I was in a group with the top 15, but completely blew up when they attacked a short set of hills.  Mentally and physically I was done.  Did my best to just get home in 26th as those dropped on previous hills caught me up.

I had teammates finish 2nd and 5th, and a training buddy 7th.  So I was happy for them.  Guy who won in a sprint finish is a 18 year old junior national champ that races P/1.  He's been here all of 2 weeks as he's going to the University of Hawaii as a freshman.

 



2014-09-01 9:48 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by ChrisM In DC for a few days on our way to NY tor SOS. Embarrassed to say it's my first time ever, as a nearly 50 year old. I am a sucker for patriotism, I've been known to tear up at the anthem a time or two, so it's pretty awe inspiring to go for a run among all the monuments I've read about all my life.

but props to folks that travel a lot and train. I was in central cal for two days last week, San Francisco for two days, then travel to here. Got as many of my workouts in as I could, but between access and food issues it's hard to do it well. I suppose you get used to it

also props to those that train in heat and humidity. Didn't make my 6 am (3 am for me) wake up call to run so went out at 8 and it was already sultry and soggy. Way too humid for me

I don't know much about that set, but if I was in the market, would find it very hard to look past the new Quarq Elsa on the Shimano 9000. The 4-arm one that you can change rings yourself and will fit 50/34 to 55/42.

Wait, why did this change from quoting Arend to Chris?? 

2014-09-01 9:49 AM
in reply to: TankBoy

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by Fred D

OK, decided to jump in to tri talk with a 'helpful' post.

God help me...

Powercranks Fred? Now you've gone too far....

Dangit, Fred is a bad, bad influence!

2014-09-01 2:22 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Jason N

Epic day today.  Conditions were fast, but really hot as the normal tradewinds weren't blowing.  Stuck with the lead group till about the point I expected but spent a lot of energy chasing down attacks or spending a little time at the front when I could have simply stayed back in the draft.  Staying up front did help me avoid a crash that split the lead group from about 50 to 30 though.  At mile 98 I was in a group with the top 15, but completely blew up when they attacked a short set of hills.  Mentally and physically I was done.  Did my best to just get home in 26th as those dropped on previous hills caught me up.

I had teammates finish 2nd and 5th, and a training buddy 7th.  So I was happy for them.  Guy who won in a sprint finish is a 18 year old junior national champ that races P/1.  He's been here all of 2 weeks as he's going to the University of Hawaii as a freshman.

 

Epic, indeed.  Nice race!  Top 15 and in the lead group after nearly a century is awesome.  Are you happy about how you raced (doing work), or do you look back and wish you'd sat in some?  Just curious - great day either way!

Sounds like the freshman will be long enough to cause some havoc.  

2014-09-01 2:45 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

RR here

I'm happy with my race.  Placing as high as possible was not my goal for the race.  If it was, I surely would have raced differently.  But in the end, I wasn't going to win, and I wasn't going to be in that final selection.  And with bike racing, I've learned that if you don't win, or are not in the final group, nobody really cares where you finish.  What you do during the race is more impressive to other bike riders.  For example, a friend of mine who is very much top 10 caliber did a ton of work up front making the race hard between miles 40 and 90.  Then he blew up, but was one of those guys who passed me in the final 3 miles.  He ended up finishing something like 21st, but everyone knows what kind of ride he did today.  Nobody really cares about the guys who were sitting in the back most of the day that finished 15th-20th.  There's nothing wrong with that approach, but just saying nobody really cares.  Unlike triathlon where you reap what you sow, and your finishing place/time is a better reflection of your day.

2014-09-02 8:14 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by GoFaster Now to Marc - I thought that lots of people viewed the wind tunnel as the b/all end/all when it came to aero numbers.  I personally really like the idea of that track in California that does the aero testing, but the tunnel seemed like a great choice (if you had the $$$) - why the sceptisim?
I do believe the tunnel is the ultimate measuring tool but I believe you will get a lot more info through field testing because it's more real world and we can do an infinite amount of passes, ideally while doing training. My comment was more about the numbers manufacturers publish. They are very hard to pick apart what is what. For example, they publish numbers that bike X is 20 watts faster than bike Y. But once you start picking things apart, you realize frame X is actually 3 watts faster than Y. The other 17 watts are a combination of aerobar, fork and other things. You could upgrade these at 1/4 of the price of buying frame X. I could take my 2009 P2, change aerobars, put SRAM wireless shifting (cool and no cables) and get a custom paint job. I would have a way cooler bike, probably more aero and cheaper than buying a new P3. Take some of the independent testing done and you see the numbers are way closer between bike X and Y than the manufacturers publish. Aero testing is really complex in that there is some much interaction between things. Helmet X in position Y behaves differently than in position Z. Rear drag changes with body position.... I have been to a wind tunnel. It is very accurate but it has it's problems. First of all, you are very time limited because it's so expensive. You have to be super efficient and super consistent. In theory you would need to test (configuration A), make a change (configuration B) , test, go back and confirm configuration A. This is very time consuming. Perfect example, in 2012 I went into a tunnel. The Kask Bambino tested much faster than the A2. That is a $500 helmet. This year my LBS who had a 30 day return policy had one in stock so I tested in the field. I could not get it to be faster than the A2. I was so confused with the discrepancy with the tunnel results, I test 3 times. I went back to my tunnel results, with pictures and realized I may have not been 100% in the same position between 2 runs in the tunnel and I probably dropped my head more giving inconsistent results in the tunnel. Had I done 2 passes of tests, maybe I would have caught this, but you can't do dozens of tests. If you are a very experienced rider that can replicate a position perfectly and hold it perfectly and have lots of time, yes, but I am not that. Second of all, it doesn't matter what the tunnel says, what happens in real life matters. Real life is swirling winds, changing yaw, small moments of drag change (passing or being passed)..... I test a lot but I make my tests part of my workout. Yesterday I rode 80km doing tests. I found a flat stretch of road and was doing 4km intervals are various power levels to confirm some changes. I look at the data and if it's consistent, I can tell what is truly faster and what isn't The velodrome is a cool idea although I am not sure it's the best for equipment testing. There is 0 yaw. You will not see wheel difference, helmet difference is only partial, yhyrdation systems is only partial. Position testing makes sense. Field testing sometimes yield weird results but when you get them, you simply re-test. Yesterday during my test I got a really weird pass. There was probably a significant gust of wind. But you can see it in the data. I do believe you need a good understanding of how things work to do field testing and you are continuously learning and adapting your test protocols. See you all in February in Charlettetown for testing in the IglooDome

Thanks for your thoughts Marc



2014-09-02 8:27 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Fred D What would you suggest as a good primer for learning how to test (field)?
this is a good one http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/wattage/cda/indirect-cda.pdf

Too bad I won't be allowed my bike on the new velodrome - took a look at this link and it's just tells me I would get it wrong trying to test outside.

2014-09-02 1:24 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Best Bike Split question tied to Rolling Resistance.  The default for my bike data was 0.002324, but considering the roads are a bit rough I upped it to 0.003.  That changed the estimate from a 2:46:xx to a 2:48:xx.  Here's what i'm trying to figure out - why the model is saying I'll go faster than I think I will.

I rode the course just over a week ago and finished with an Avg power and NP that matched up to what's in the model, but it took me 3:00:xx.  Now, I had no aero wheels or helmet and I started off the day weighed down like a Sherpa with 4 water bottles + gels.  Race day I expect to have the gels but only 2 bottles, and aero helmet + wheels, tires, etc.  But can I really go 12min faster?? 

When I raced the course in 2012 my moving time was 2:55 (stood on the side of the road for 12min with a mechanical), and my setup is not that much different from then, although I'm a bit lower, and I fell apart in the back half of that race when both quads seized on me so I had to back off in the last 25km. 

I'm not trying to chase a time, since my pace will be governed by target wattage for the race, btu the model is there to predict what maybe possible, so I'm trying to figure out where the 12min difference comes from.  Extra bottles + lack of aero gear adds up to that much time (plus it was a little windy on the test ride day)?

It's obviously taper week... 

2014-09-02 1:47 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Neil, do you have a reference race where you used all of your race gear?  Something that will let you tweak the options in BBS to see what gives you a very close power to time prediction?  What I did was load up the route from Miami and then tweak settings until it spit out a time and power that were very close to the actual time.  Then with those settings, I look at another course.  It has given me pretty close numbers that way.

2014-09-02 8:24 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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2014-09-02 8:26 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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2014-09-02 8:56 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D
Originally posted by GoFaster

Best Bike Split question tied to Rolling Resistance.  The default for my bike data was 0.002324, but considering the roads are a bit rough I upped it to 0.003.  That changed the estimate from a 2:46:xx to a 2:48:xx.  Here's what i'm trying to figure out - why the model is saying I'll go faster than I think I will.

I rode the course just over a week ago and finished with an Avg power and NP that matched up to what's in the model, but it took me 3:00:xx.  Now, I had no aero wheels or helmet and I started off the day weighed down like a Sherpa with 4 water bottles + gels.  Race day I expect to have the gels but only 2 bottles, and aero helmet + wheels, tires, etc.  But can I really go 12min faster?? 

When I raced the course in 2012 my moving time was 2:55 (stood on the side of the road for 12min with a mechanical), and my setup is not that much different from then, although I'm a bit lower, and I fell apart in the back half of that race when both quads seized on me so I had to back off in the last 25km. 

I'm not trying to chase a time, since my pace will be governed by target wattage for the race, btu the model is there to predict what maybe possible, so I'm trying to figure out where the 12min difference comes from.  Extra bottles + lack of aero gear adds up to that much time (plus it was a little windy on the test ride day)?

It's obviously taper week... 

what did you enter for aero position? FOP, MOP? FTW I entered MOP and it was right on at IMMT.

Good catch Fred - made that change and it took me to 2:54:xx which is more in line with what I would expect.  That said, if you're entering yourself as MOP, maybe I need to consider entering recreational...

I put the rolling resistance back to the default numbers, and it spat out a 2:52:xx - we'll see how close it is (although I need to wait for the power plan from the coach).

Question - I normally run 100psi (I'm around 152lbs at the moment).  I found that outside of the main highway section a lot of the other portions of the course were kind of bumpy, and was thinking of dropping the pressure down to 90-95psi.  Pros/Cons?

2014-09-03 5:40 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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2014-09-03 7:46 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

2:52-54 sounds right, no?

Based on my test ride + 2012 race pace, this seems pretty close.

2014-09-03 8:22 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

 Are you guys talking about Racing Position under Riding Style in the My Bike Section? That's entirely based on how you're situated on the bike, how aggressive the position is. Not your position in the field. My position early this season would have been Hoods or Drops seeing how I was on the road bike even though I had a 2nd and 3rd overall bike split on it. My tri-bike position should be up in the Advanced or maybe close to Elite. Conrad Stoltz is one of the most powerful riders out there, but would enter Midpack at best from what I've seen of is on-road position.

2014-09-03 8:40 AM
in reply to: brigby1

Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by ChrisM In DC for a few days on our way to NY tor SOS. Embarrassed to say it's my first time ever, as a nearly 50 year old. I am a sucker for patriotism, I've been known to tear up at the anthem a time or two, so it's pretty awe inspiring to go for a run among all the monuments I've read about all my life.

but props to folks that travel a lot and train. I was in central cal for two days last week, San Francisco for two days, then travel to here. Got as many of my workouts in as I could, but between access and food issues it's hard to do it well. I suppose you get used to it

also props to those that train in heat and humidity. Didn't make my 6 am (3 am for me) wake up call to run so went out at 8 and it was already sultry and soggy. Way too humid for me

I don't know much about that set, but if I was in the market, would find it very hard to look past the new Quarq Elsa on the Shimano 9000. The 4-arm one that you can change rings yourself and will fit 50/34 to 55/42.

Wait, why did this change from quoting Arend to Chris?? 

Cuz I am more quotable......

On the train from DC to NYC, wi fi is faster than the hotel was.   This morning's run included a break in the :30 intervals to walk up the steps of the US Supreme  Court.  Quite impressive, in many ways the seat of US power.   Read (or read some of) the original US Constitution and the Bill of Rights yesterday.   Now that was the highlight of my trip here, despite all the monuments and memorials.....

But hopefully now onto (slightly) cooler and less humid climes  Forecast for SOS race day is sunny and 77.   Better than the 95s and 80+% humidity in DC. Speaking of the race, had a good run month in August with 110 miles, but have not swam or biked since...   last week?   Hard to remember there's been so much travel.  

I am borrowing a local's road bike for SOS, that should be interesting.  Because I left the bike at home I wasn't even thinking and left the flat kit there as well.   Have to buy another in NYC in case.



2014-09-03 9:12 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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2014-09-03 10:21 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by brigby1

 Are you guys talking about Racing Position under Riding Style in the My Bike Section? That's entirely based on how you're situated on the bike, how aggressive the position is. Not your position in the field. My position early this season would have been Hoods or Drops seeing how I was on the road bike even though I had a 2nd and 3rd overall bike split on it. My tri-bike position should be up in the Advanced or maybe close to Elite. Conrad Stoltz is one of the most powerful riders out there, but would enter Midpack at best from what I've seen of is on-road position.

Yes, and that was the point I was making. I ride FFOP, but position is not elite. Average at best.

6min difference based on the bike position between Advanced and MOP for my race/setup.  That's a pretty big difference, so I wonder what they figure you need to do to "earn" that 6min in terms of your position.

2014-09-03 5:59 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

So, it' seems like it's a big race weekend for SBR Utopia.  Nicole and Marc in Mont Tremblant for the WC 70.3, Neil is doing Muskoka 70.3 and Chris is doing S.O.S.

Anyone else?  I'm doing a race simulation workout on Saturday for Barrelman in two weeks.

2014-09-03 6:05 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by axteraa

So, it' seems like it's a big race weekend for SBR Utopia.  Nicole and Marc in Mont Tremblant for the WC 70.3, Neil is doing Muskoka 70.3 and Chris is doing S.O.S.

Anyone else?  I'm doing a race simulation workout on Saturday for Barrelman in two weeks.




good luck to all the SBR racers!
2014-09-03 6:29 PM
in reply to: 0

Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by axteraa

So, it' seems like it's a big race weekend for SBR Utopia.  Nicole and Marc in Mont Tremblant for the WC 70.3, Neil is doing Muskoka 70.3 and Chris is doing S.O.S.

Anyone else?  I'm doing a race simulation workout on Saturday for Barrelman in two weeks.

My season is done.  I plan to go for a couple of 2-3 hour rides this weekend, but my main focus will be watching football and drinking beer.  Best of luck to those who are racing!!!



Edited by Jason N 2014-09-03 6:29 PM


2014-09-03 6:59 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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2014-09-03 7:00 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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2014-09-03 7:10 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
I have a swim tomorrow morning and then begin my taper for Sunday :-)

I am using this race as a long training day. I am hoping to get in shape for Silverman with lots of work to be done. The body is healing up slowly

I did a nice one on myself two weeks ago. I put a drill through my big finder (index in French). While it has healed up nicely, it is numb so I think there is some nerve damage. You don't need to SBR to injur yourself :-)

I ran this morning, bikes this evening trying to figure out some realistic paces.
2014-09-03 7:20 PM
in reply to: marcag

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