General Discussion Triathlon Talk » LSD runs over 10 miles Rss Feed  
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2014-05-19 5:57 PM

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: LSD runs over 10 miles
Hello everyone!

So I think I beat my ITBS and my blister problems and I've been running well since last July (2013) w/o severe pain or injuries. I've been very careful about rebuilding my run fitness and now Vineman 70.3 is approaching. I've been biking long on Saturdays and running long on Sundays the past several months followed by a day off with nothing but foam rolling, stretching, and some strength training. I feel recovered by Tuesday morning.

My concern now is my LSD runs are longer than 10 miles. Would it be wise to run 2 LSD runs (say 11 and 12 miles) and then run the next LSD run as an 8 miler to allow my body to recover well and prevent injury or go for a 13 (3 consecutive weeks of LSD runs) and then go down to 8. As I go down to that 8 miler, that will tie into a recovery week as well.

I'm sitting on about a 20-22ish mpw average the past month with 1 speed work day for running (Tuesday) and biking (Thursday).

Please tell me what you guys think. ^_^

Thanks!
Roland


2014-05-19 6:22 PM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Master
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University Park, MD
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles
Your mileage is low for doing 11-13 mile runs - this makes your long run amount to more than 50% of your weekly mileage. That's risky, if you're injury prone. I'd suggest to compensate for this by adding a steady run in place of the speed workout. That will make the LR safer, as you'll be able to recover better, and perhaps will do slightly more miles. If you're preparing for a 70.3, your performance will not be limited by your speed work. That's a long endurance event.
2014-05-19 8:12 PM
in reply to: colinphillips

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles
I had my best day at a 70.3 without any runs over 10 miles. I did increase my run frequency though to 28-32 MPW. As noted, 11-12 miles for a long run is a lot for 20-22 MPW. Do you have time to increase the number of days per week that you run?
2014-05-20 1:19 AM
in reply to: 0

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles
Yes, I do. What do you recommend for a 5 runs/week schedule? How's this?

Sunday -- LSD
Monday -- Stretching, foam rolling, ST
Tuesday -- Medium (tempo/pace)
Wednesday -- Short (easy)
Thursday -- Medium (easy)
Friday -- Short (easy)
Saturday -- Long bike

I remember reading Barry's formula recently in another post... Take LSD distance divided by 3 and that will determine the distances to run per week?

Edited by kloofyroland 2014-05-20 1:21 AM
2014-05-20 1:20 AM
in reply to: colinphillips

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles
You make a good point there Colin, thanks!
2014-05-20 8:10 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Champion
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Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles

Just some thoughts off the top of my head... 

  • Depending on your weekly volume, and build, you can do a LSD in the 12-14 mile range. With that said, if you know you have the endurance and can go those 3 extra miles on race day, no problem, then keeping it around 10 is just fine. If you have endurance, then working on speed with that endurance is a good idea... if you aren't injured, and have the run base to do it. 
  • When I have clients who are prone to injury, or just new, I usually have them run 3 days a week. I have trained many people to run half marathon's on 3 days a week. Including myself, for years. The "run more" theory doesn't work for everyone, to keep them injury free. When I run more than 3-4 days a week, I end up injured. Not every theory of how someone should train or what is "right" works for every person. You have to experiment and see what is right for you. The ones who have been with my longer and who have more of a running base will get 4-5 days a week. I build overall volume by 10% per week, with their long run being at 10%. But, again, if someone has a good running base and has been injury free, I might up their volume by 20% per week. 
  • I don't have people do back to back long bike and long run days. If you have to do both on the weekend, I would suggest you running long on Sat and riding long on Sun. That way you aren't running on "tired" legs, so to speak. 
  • If someone is coming off an injury, or has low run volume, I do LSD runs with them. If they are not injured, have a run base and we have worked together for some time, I give them intervals within their long runs, aiming to keep them at race pace or faster. Mostly that happens with my clients who are looking to win races, or clients who have a specific time goal.

Hum. Did any of that help? More of the story, experiment and do what works best for you. 

 



2014-05-20 9:36 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Champion
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Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles

You are not running enough for speed work and long run over 50% of your run volume.

I would suggest your add one run a week and see how that goes and keep your long run at your current same distance. Longest run should be ideally 25% but maybe up to 35% of your weekly run volume. So if you are running 10 mile long runs you should be running ideally 40 mpw but maybe 30 but 20 makes it a poor plan for a couple of reasons. One you are more likely of injury. The other issue is your body is unable to absorb the training and have it make a positive impact. Consistent running will trump long run distance as to benefiting your run for a 70.3.

When I first started doing longer tris my coach had me run 3x a week and my runs in 70.3 and IM were always a disappointment. It wasn't until I changed coaches and  bumped up my run frequency and had that long run be a smaller percentage of my weekly run volume did I see better results in races. I also focused on my long runs increasing my speed slightly throughout the run...it may be just 10-15" per mile after first third and again after the second third which helped me learn to pace better.

Many people when they do a recovery week reduce volume including that of their long run.

2014-05-20 10:00 AM
in reply to: KathyG

Master
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Northern IL
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles

Originally posted by KathyG

You are not running enough for speed work and long run over 50% of your run volume.

I would suggest your add one run a week and see how that goes and keep your long run at your current same distance. Longest run should be ideally 25% but maybe up to 35% of your weekly run volume. So if you are running 10 mile long runs you should be running ideally 40 mpw but maybe 30 but 20 makes it a poor plan for a couple of reasons. One you are more likely of injury. The other issue is your body is unable to absorb the training and have it make a positive impact. Consistent running will trump long run distance as to benefiting your run for a 70.3.

That part is important and often misunderstood. It's not just avoiding injury, but finding a good amount to continue to elicit a good training response. Are you getting notably faster or becoming more used to beating yourself up?

2014-05-20 1:44 PM
in reply to: 0

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by KathyG

You are not running enough for speed work and long run over 50% of your run volume.

I would suggest your add one run a week and see how that goes and keep your long run at your current same distance. Longest run should be ideally 25% but maybe up to 35% of your weekly run volume. So if you are running 10 mile long runs you should be running ideally 40 mpw but maybe 30 but 20 makes it a poor plan for a couple of reasons. One you are more likely of injury. The other issue is your body is unable to absorb the training and have it make a positive impact. Consistent running will trump long run distance as to benefiting your run for a 70.3.

That part is important and often misunderstood. It's not just avoiding injury, but finding a good amount to continue to elicit a good training response. Are you getting notably faster or becoming more used to beating yourself up?




Thanks for this. Regarding getting notably faster, yes, I have been and also getting more used to beating myself up. I think consistent strength training has helped alot but I think even then, there may be a time my body will not handle the coming 6 weeks at my current build rate before I taper down for Vineman 70.3.

I've been using Jeff Galloway's Magic Mile as a measurement tool to gauge my fitness gains:

March: 7:43
April: 7:16
May: 7:03

I started doing running speedwork once a week in April. Before that it was 0:20/0:40 strides after running once a week.

I'm aiming to run most of the run segment so I've been focusing on running well and healthy as best as I could the past year. I bonked the run my first HIM and improved in my 2nd, this time I wanna kill it! (well, at least the run segment)

Edited by kloofyroland 2014-05-20 1:46 PM
2014-05-20 1:48 PM
in reply to: KSH

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles
Thanks! I think I will try flipping the long days. That or swap a medium run mid-week with the LSD run.
2014-05-20 3:09 PM
in reply to: kloofyroland

Master
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Northern IL
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles

Originally posted by kloofyroland
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by KathyG

You are not running enough for speed work and long run over 50% of your run volume.

I would suggest your add one run a week and see how that goes and keep your long run at your current same distance. Longest run should be ideally 25% but maybe up to 35% of your weekly run volume. So if you are running 10 mile long runs you should be running ideally 40 mpw but maybe 30 but 20 makes it a poor plan for a couple of reasons. One you are more likely of injury. The other issue is your body is unable to absorb the training and have it make a positive impact. Consistent running will trump long run distance as to benefiting your run for a 70.3.

That part is important and often misunderstood. It's not just avoiding injury, but finding a good amount to continue to elicit a good training response. Are you getting notably faster or becoming more used to beating yourself up?

Thanks for this. Regarding getting notably faster, yes, I have been and also getting more used to beating myself up. I think consistent strength training has helped alot but I think even then, there may be a time my body will not handle the coming 6 weeks at my current build rate before I taper down for Vineman 70.3.

I did not actually mean to equate the "faster" and "beating" in my other post, but rather to make some distinction in there. You do want to learn how to handle an increasing training load, but at the same time you don't want to keep doing more than what your body can absorb. That point is before becoming injured. usually performance can flatten out or stall some. Can't really execute key workout sessions that well. Trouble holding the pace, or performing the number of reps for some examples. Everyone has a bad day now and then, but watch the trends for this.



2014-05-22 1:18 PM
in reply to: 0

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: LSD runs over 10 miles
Yup, I sure felt beat up early this week so I took Tuesday night off from running. I had an active recovery type bike workout on the trainer Tuesday morning to try keeping things loose.

I ran a 4.5 miler yesterday and that run felt mentally hard because my legs felt heavy and tight. I kept telling myself, light as a feather, good form, good cadence. My pace per mile was okay though for the RPE. I did not feel light headed, dizzy, or any pain in my legs anywhere so that's good, whew!

I slept well last night and I'm going to run again today. I'm gonna change my running plan leading up to the race in such a way that I will run 5x/week with the recommendations in the posts above.

How does this new plan for running look?

Sunday: 9 mile LSD run
Monday: No running
Tuesday: 6 pace/tempo
Wednesday: 3 easy (might be a bike/run brick)
Thursday: 5 easy
Friday: 2 easy OR Saturday: 2 very easy run brick

I think I should try this though so I don't do back to back long workouts on Saturday and Sunday:

Sunday: 5 easy
Monday: No running
Tuesday: 9 mile LSD run
Wednesday: 3 easy (might be a bike/run brick)
Thursday: 6 pace/tempo
Friday: 2 OR Saturday: 2 very easy run brick after long bike

Thanks everyone!

Edited by kloofyroland 2014-05-22 1:22 PM
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