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2014-06-12 8:17 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
Originally posted by bcagle25



They bring up the question of burn out? No one involved in that article knows what swimmers go through apparently.

Everyone should be embracing this kid, his abilities, and his enjoyment for the sport.


I agree. Sounds like the kid is doing it because he really enjoys it, not because his parents are pushing him to do it. I would think that it is hard to burn out on something if you are the one initiating the activity.

Maybe his running is a little extreme but I am impressed at his motivation and enthusiasm (at least as it is described in the article). It is also pretty cool that he has picked causes that he believes in to support with his activity (although I am sure the parents helped with that part...)

There is a lot of discussion about whether this is the 'right' way to train for future track and field greatness. I don't have the anwer to that question but I have to think that what he is doing is a lot better prep than the Playstation or Nintendo would be. Wouldn't we all think the parents were a little nutty if they were talking about this mileage as the right way to prep for his future running career? Why is it any less crazy that WE are worried about future track greatness at age 10?


2014-06-12 8:26 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

Originally posted by wannabefaster
Originally posted by bcagle25 They bring up the question of burn out? No one involved in that article knows what swimmers go through apparently. Everyone should be embracing this kid, his abilities, and his enjoyment for the sport.
I agree. Sounds like the kid is doing it because he really enjoys it, not because his parents are pushing him to do it. I would think that it is hard to burn out on something if you are the one initiating the activity. Maybe his running is a little extreme but I am impressed at his motivation and enthusiasm (at least as it is described in the article). It is also pretty cool that he has picked causes that he believes in to support with his activity (although I am sure the parents helped with that part...) There is a lot of discussion about whether this is the 'right' way to train for future track and field greatness. I don't have the anwer to that question but I have to think that what he is doing is a lot better prep than the Playstation or Nintendo would be. Wouldn't we all think the parents were a little nutty if they were talking about this mileage as the right way to prep for his future running career? Why is it any less crazy that WE are worried about future track greatness at age 10?

I wouldn't worry at all about track greatness in the future, it will be or it won't be......I would be worried about injury that causes him to have to stop doing something he obviously loves.  

2014-06-12 8:50 AM
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Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

Originally posted by Hot Runner I think you're making a lot of assumptions about how we trained! I don't recall ever running over 40 miles per week when training for the longer stuff (which I did as a protest because our state did not offer 2 mile for girls until my junior year-- if it had been offered, I would have focused my training on 1-2 mile races) and, during track season, probably not over 30 mpw. I don't have a clue how the HS kids train now. Back in the day, for me it was a "long run" of 8-10 miles (during track season, 12-15 for the HM), a rest day or two, two days of intervals or hill repeats, at least one of them on the grass, the rest easy runs of 4-6 miles. Our coach was good but not terribly creative--to this day I remember (and sometimes do) those speed workouts: 6-8 X 800, or 3 sets of 800-400-400. Not really what I'd consider cruel and unusual punishment! BTW I was almost two years young for my grade--finished HS at 16 for reasons unrelated to running. My 2-mile time at 17-18 was close to what you mentioned. I guess my beliefs are just different. In my mind, sports are something to enjoy and a personal challenge. I don't regret doing what I could when I did. My goal wasn't to become a professional or elite athlete--I knew even then I didn't have the talent for that-- just to do my best at what I enjoyed. Maybe I could have been a bit faster if I'd spent several years focusing on the 800 or something when I was young, but I most likely would have quit the sport in that case. My running brought, and continues to bring me, great joy and a wealth of valuable experiences. I hope that is the case for this boy and he isn't pushed beyond what he wants to do or his body can handle. It can be hard to sort out who's the motivation behind such things when an entire family is into it and the child is young. I know in my case my dad followed me into running as a personal challenge for himself. If anyone was pushing anyone, it was child pushing parent, not vice versa! On the start line of my first marathon, a runner tried to berate my dad for "making" me do the race and I had to explain that it was the other way around..... Remembering that experience, I just wouldn't want to go there without really understanding the individual situation! I did know young runners who were pushed too hard, too soon, and burned out, and am grateful to my family and coaches that they didn't do that to me.

Did you do 2 HM's 5 weeks apart at 10 years old?

Look, like I said, I agree with much of what you are saying.  And I completely agree that of all the things a 10 year old can be doing, running is fantastic if he loves it, which it appears he does.  There just has to be some oversight......and parents who juist started running and talk about "all the ribbons he's won" (from a video on the kid that I watched) probably aren't the best choice.  I ran a lot as a kid.  I was fast as a kid. I could have been fast as a D1 college miler.....but my dad and the coaches I had at that time were complete boneheads and I became a mess of injuries.   I have ran off and on my entire life.  The first thing I did when my kid started to show signs of running fast and loving it was get him the best youth coach I could find.  Because I know damn well that it's hard to be objective when your kid loves something and wants more and more. 

I applaud this kid and his love of running.  I will never get behind that kind of mileage at that age. 

The danger of these kinds of stories, as far as I'm concerned, are the goofball parents who read it and figure their 10 year old can start running some HM's too since this kid can do it.  It's a recipe for some really dumb running for kids.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-06-12 9:01 AM
2014-06-12 9:04 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
Originally posted by Left Brain

  •   I ran a lot as a kid.  I was fast as a kid. I could have been fast as a D1 college miler.....but my dad and the coaches I had at that time were complete boneheads and I became a mess of injuries.   I have ran off and on my entire life.  The first thing I did when my kid started to show signs of running fast and loving it was get him the best youth coach I could find.  Because I know damn well that it's hard to be objective when your kid loves something and wants more and more. 

    I applaud this kid and his love of running.  I will never get behind that kind of mileage at that age. 

    The danger of these kinds of stories, as far as I'm concerned, are the goofball parents who read it and figure their 10 year old can start running some HM's too since this kid can do it.  It's a recipe for some really dumb running for kids.




  • Great perspective and I thank you for it.
    2014-06-12 10:25 AM
    in reply to: wannabefaster

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
    Thank you. I agree with your post. Kids playing games and eating crap get no story. No concerned citizens. But this kid doing exercise? EXTREME!

    I agree also that coaches and science are evolving constantly. Coaches seem stuck on this philosophy of "lock in slow twitch fibers" - so what if he does? Would it be okay if he quits? Would that lock in more fast twitch fibers? And so what if he isnt competitive on the HS track. Why is that your concern? (rhetorically asking the coaches)

    Burnout? I burned out from running in Middle School- or never really loved it. Whatever. Then I did some more in HS - still didnt catch. Then I ran more as an adult and so far its sticking. Burnout is a bad argument. Whether kids do a lot of a sport or a little, most dont continue it all their lives. Hell, I used to ski a lot, then I started snowboarding. Did I BURN OUT?

    To the OP, thanks for this article. The discussion seems to be focused on swimming and their training somehow, but thanks for the OP.
    2014-06-12 11:17 AM
    in reply to: BF JEFF

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
    Originally posted by BF JEFF

    Kids playing games and eating crap get no story. No concerned citizens. But this kid doing exercise? EXTREME!



    Of course they do. Childhood obesity and sedentary lifestyle in children get tons of attention. Here's the thing, if this young man stops running HM's, the other option isn't playing video games all day long and eating Cheetos. So the "at least he's exercising" argument doesn't really address the legitimate concerns raised in the posted article.



    2014-06-12 11:44 AM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
    I agree. He should be reducing volume and racing shorter distances. Its not rocket science, just Long Term Athlete Development...
    2014-06-15 8:46 PM
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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

    IMHO- 

    I understand the argument of "but the kid does it on his own" and is not pushed by his parents - BUT, Parents need to make the decisions as to what is best for their children. How good was your decision making process at 10 yrs? The parents need to limit his training (not take it away) especially since he is still young and growing. 



    Edited by MamacitaT 2014-06-15 8:47 PM
    2014-06-16 8:02 AM
    in reply to: MamacitaT

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

    I wonder if the kids desire to do certain races is by copying what his parents are doing.

    Sounds like he loves to run. 

    Have they exposed him to events and coaches that are geared towards his age and development? Or is he asking to do things he knows about from his parents and their start to running?

    I see this a lot in triathlete kids that they want to do what their parents do. Run a 1/2 Mary or do a 1/2 IM when they are 14. Maybe it is these kids are searching from approval from their parents, copying what they are doing or aching to spend time with them or some other not entirely healthy reason to do excess of one activity, Like LB shared, triathlete parents at youth triathlons are often horrible. I recall one that kids were swimming in cold ocean North of Boston, and most of the kids were walking the swimming and one parent was yelling about all the swim lessons you have had why are you walking?  Many parents were screaming at their kids to do this or that faster. Reminded me of parents coaching their kids from the sidelines in soccer or softball but 100x worse as no one was there to reign them in. Another youth tri I was at, parents were at a key corner on bike in and run in and out. They were tracking all the kids (like she is 8th on the run, oh where is Susie she blah blah blah) , talking about who was on the junior Olympic development team, and being incredibly poor sported about the whole thing. It made us want to move and get away from that poison.

    I hope he loves running and continues to love running and stays healthy and uninjured.

    2014-06-16 8:25 AM
    in reply to: Left Brain


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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Originally posted by Nick B Not really much different that any other kid and parents. We are in the age of sport specific kids. More and more a kid shows some talent and some interest in a sport then that's what they are going to focus on. Many times it is the parents behind the kids pushing them and pushing them until they just break. More than anything we just need to encourage kids to be kids. To run because they enjoy it, to swim because they enjoy it, to play basketball, baseball, soccer, tennis, golf, etc etc. Not because they are going to get a scholarship or play professionally.

    My son and I volunteered over the weekend at a kids triathlon.  The kids ranged from 7 to 13 years old.  I'd venture a guess that nearly 75% of the parents were people who do triathlon, judging from the t-shirts and hats they were wearing.  Without a doubt some of the most wigged out parents watching kids sport that I have ever seen, and my kids have been involved in baseball, softball, basketball, swimming, tae kwon do, and even competitive cheerleading, among others.  The triathlon parents made the competitive cheerleading parents look sane........I never would have thought that was possible.  

    I watched one really fit looking mom grab her son, probably about 9, by both shoulders after the race and  yell, "you can't go anaerobic for 45 minutes!!!" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!   Ok mom.




    these kind of parents deserve the rebellion they get from their kids. seriously? they are trying to make their kids accomplish what they themselves could not. guess what ana mom, your kid either has the talent to make the Olympics are not if they don't start training until they are 16. pushing your kid that hard at 9 is a simply sad. get a life mom so your kid doesn't have to shoulder responsibility for your not being happy.
    2014-06-16 8:53 AM
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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
    No way my kid is doing a HIM at 14. That said it's against the Triathlon Canada rules for kids to race long distance events.

    Just because the kid wants to copy does not mean you cave in and let the kid do something that is counter productive for long term development.

    I will admit to yelling at my kid at his first race. He had swam his first swim meet the day before and was going to dive in to the shallow end... Same pool I used to train in where we used to have blocks in the shallow end and my friend broke his neck hitting the bottom. Coincidently his daughter was doing her 1st race in the U6 group!

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    Edited by simpsonbo 2014-06-16 9:02 AM


    2014-06-16 9:23 AM
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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
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    Edited by simpsonbo 2014-06-16 9:26 AM
    2014-06-16 2:13 PM
    in reply to: simpsonbo

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

    Originally posted by simpsonbo I saw a lot of the best kids at 10 to 12 weren't the best at 17 to 18 and done before 20.

     

    Unfortunately this is also the natural attrition in sports. Kids want to be the best, and in order to be the best have to bite off quite a large amount of work. Those who can absorb the work and continue to accel go on to great things, while others get tired, stop improving, or lose the fire as the going gets tough. Sometimes it's because of the wrong things (overbearing parent), but more often than not is simply the climb to the top. We have a couple swim programs around here that are known for 2 things: burnout and phenomenal athletes. The 2 go hand in hand. The programs that have low burnout also have very low success rates.

    2014-06-16 2:38 PM
    in reply to: tjfry

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

    Originally posted by tjfry

    Originally posted by simpsonbo I saw a lot of the best kids at 10 to 12 weren't the best at 17 to 18 and done before 20.

     

    Unfortunately this is also the natural attrition in sports. Kids want to be the best, and in order to be the best have to bite off quite a large amount of work. Those who can absorb the work and continue to accel go on to great things, while others get tired, stop improving, or lose the fire as the going gets tough. Sometimes it's because of the wrong things (overbearing parent), but more often than not is simply the climb to the top. We have a couple swim programs around here that are known for 2 things: burnout and phenomenal athletes. The 2 go hand in hand. The programs that have low burnout also have very low success rates.

    Absolutely.....and the clilmb to the top today, unlike in the days when there weren't as many "specialized" athletes, can be even more grueling.  I know what my own kid goes through to be one of the top Jr. triathlete/runners in the country/region and I couldn't do it.  To go further, we are now watching kids he came up with flame out over injuries, girlfriends, or just no longer willing to deal with the grind of staying at that level.  My eyes have been opened to what it truly takes to be a top athlete......and it's no wonder so few end up there.  The ones who make it to the elite levels make tremendous sacrifices compared to the rest of us, with regard to their chosen sport. 

    2014-06-16 2:53 PM
    in reply to: trishie

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

     

    Seems to me that the whole thing only raises questions that don't matter (or exist).

    If the kid is enjoying it, and HE is the one initiating it, and he isn't being dragged into it by overbearing parents... then what's the question?

    That track coach and his spewing of whatever about developing speed, etc... please.  Who cares?  We're talking about a kid that enjoys running.... just let the kid enjoy his running and stop trying to make mountains out of molehills that aren't even there.

     

     

     

    2014-06-16 3:07 PM
    in reply to: cgregg

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

    Originally posted by cgregg

     

    Seems to me that the whole thing only raises questions that don't matter (or exist).

    If the kid is enjoying it, and HE is the one initiating it, and he isn't being dragged into it by overbearing parents... then what's the question?

    That track coach and his spewing of whatever about developing speed, etc... please.  Who cares?  We're talking about a kid that enjoys running.... just let the kid enjoy his running and stop trying to make mountains out of molehills that aren't even there.

     

     I agree.....if you want to let your 10 year old run 2 HM's 5 weeks apart you should be able to.  And he should decide what's best for him.....because, after all, he's 10. 



    2014-06-16 3:26 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Originally posted by cgregg

     

    Seems to me that the whole thing only raises questions that don't matter (or exist).

    If the kid is enjoying it, and HE is the one initiating it, and he isn't being dragged into it by overbearing parents... then what's the question?

    That track coach and his spewing of whatever about developing speed, etc... please.  Who cares?  We're talking about a kid that enjoys running.... just let the kid enjoy his running and stop trying to make mountains out of molehills that aren't even there.

     

     I agree.....if you want to let your 10 year old run 2 HM's 5 weeks apart you should be able to.  And he should decide what's best for him.....because, after all, he's 10. 




    x1,000,000,000

    No one is suggesting the kid not run. The concern is over whether it is the best approach to health and longevity in athletic pursuits.
    2014-06-16 5:38 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Originally posted by cgregg

     

    Seems to me that the whole thing only raises questions that don't matter (or exist).

    If the kid is enjoying it, and HE is the one initiating it, and he isn't being dragged into it by overbearing parents... then what's the question?

    That track coach and his spewing of whatever about developing speed, etc... please.  Who cares?  We're talking about a kid that enjoys running.... just let the kid enjoy his running and stop trying to make mountains out of molehills that aren't even there.

     

     I agree.....if you want to let your 10 year old run 2 HM's 5 weeks apart you should be able to.  And he should decide what's best for him.....because, after all, he's 10. 

    Oh, look... a moun...errr, molehill!

     

    Yup, because CLEARLY everything will ALWAYS be taken to the ridiculous extremes, so ya know, that's what we roll with.  Yup, that's exactly the point I was making.

     

    2014-06-16 7:48 PM
    in reply to: cgregg

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

    Originally posted by cgregg

    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Originally posted by cgregg

     

    Seems to me that the whole thing only raises questions that don't matter (or exist).

    If the kid is enjoying it, and HE is the one initiating it, and he isn't being dragged into it by overbearing parents... then what's the question?

    That track coach and his spewing of whatever about developing speed, etc... please.  Who cares?  We're talking about a kid that enjoys running.... just let the kid enjoy his running and stop trying to make mountains out of molehills that aren't even there.

     

     I agree.....if you want to let your 10 year old run 2 HM's 5 weeks apart you should be able to.  And he should decide what's best for him.....because, after all, he's 10. 

    Oh, look... a moun...errr, molehill!

     

    Yup, because CLEARLY everything will ALWAYS be taken to the ridiculous extremes, so ya know, that's what we roll with.  Yup, that's exactly the point I was making.

     

    I'm not tracking you......you think it's OK for a 10 year old to run two HM's 5 weeks apart, and he should decide?  Because that's what this kid is doing.....this is not the only article on him or his pursuits.  He's been featured quite a bit in the media.  I think that's a dangerous thing....because there are plenty of bonehead parents who will see that and figure it must be OK for their kid too.  Letting a 10 year old run that type of mileage with no supervision other than parents wo also just started running is pretty crazy IMO.  But......he's not my kid, so rock on!

    2014-06-16 9:10 PM
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    2014-06-16 10:26 PM
    in reply to: Hot Runner

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
    Originally posted by Hot Runner

    I think you're making a lot of assumptions about how we trained! I don't recall ever running over 40 miles per week when training for the longer stuff (which I did as a protest because our state did not offer 2 mile for girls until my junior year-- if it had been offered, I would have focused my training on 1-2 mile races) and, during track season, probably not over 30 mpw.

    I don't have a clue how the HS kids train now. Back in the day, for me it was a "long run" of 8-10 miles (during track season, 12-15 for the HM), a rest day or two, two days of intervals or hill repeats, at least one of them on the grass, the rest easy runs of 4-6 miles. Our coach was good but not terribly creative--to this day I remember (and sometimes do) those speed workouts: 6-8 X 800, or 3 sets of 800-400-400. Not really what I'd consider cruel and unusual punishment! BTW I was almost two years young for my grade--finished HS at 16 for reasons unrelated to running. My 2-mile time at 17-18 was close to what you mentioned.

    I guess my beliefs are just different. In my mind, sports are something to enjoy and a personal challenge. I don't regret doing what I could when I did. My goal wasn't to become a professional or elite athlete--I knew even then I didn't have the talent for that-- just to do my best at what I enjoyed. Maybe I could have been a bit faster if I'd spent several years focusing on the 800 or something when I was young, but I most likely would have quit the sport in that case. My running brought, and continues to bring me, great joy and a wealth of valuable experiences. I hope that is the case for this boy and he isn't pushed beyond what he wants to do or his body can handle.

    It can be hard to sort out who's the motivation behind such things when an entire family is into it and the child is young. I know in my case my dad followed me into running as a personal challenge for himself. If anyone was pushing anyone, it was child pushing parent, not vice versa! On the start line of my first marathon, a runner tried to berate my dad for "making" me do the race and I had to explain that it was the other way around..... Remembering that experience, I just wouldn't want to go there without really understanding the individual situation! I did know young runners who were pushed too hard, too soon, and burned out, and am grateful to my family and coaches that they didn't do that to me.


    I feel just the same way. I was an awkward kid who was crap at soccer (which is all that mattered on the schoolyard in the UK), and running long was something that I just enjoyed. I had no expectations of being any good, ever, but I enjoyed the personal challenge. Since I wasn't speedy over long distances, I enjoyed trying to go long, and I think that I was tracking ultra-marathon results at age 11, wishing that I could do that some time. My dad was the first in our family to do an official marathon, but that was because me and my kid brother got him into it, and I was jealous (I had done an unofficial off-road marathon the year before - I think I was 12 at the time; really enjoyed the experience). My parents never pushed me, and never stood in my way. But they also probably could tell that I was an OCD kid who didn't need too much management. I dropped out of running for much of my 20s and 30s, and thought that I had injured myself out of longevity in running, but I was happy with the role that it had played in my growing up. And now when I do it again in my 40s, I think that part of the pleasure that I get comes from the fact that it was an important part of my childhood.


    2014-06-16 10:51 PM
    in reply to: colinphillips

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions
    Yes--I always feel ten again when I am running, esp. if I'm sprinting toward a finish line, or getting up on the podium! I can't say I trained adequately for my first marathon--until a few months before, my longest run had been 10 miles. I then did a few 12-mile runs, a 14-mile one, and, after I decided to do the marathon, two 20-mile runs. Prior to the marathon, my longest race had been two 15 km events. That's it. If a 14 year-old is going to insist on doing a marathon, it's probably better NOT to train at the levels most sensible adults would! In my mind it would be the continued pounding of all that training, rather than a one-off 3-4 hour run, that would be worse for a child.

    Oddly, the only times I have gotten injured, as a kid or now, aside from freak stuff like tripping over bricks or slipping on ice, have been when doing a lot of speedwork, particularly on the track (or, as an adult, the treadmill). My HS coach noticed this pattern and fortunately limited the amount I ran on the track; to this day I rarely get on a track, maybe because there isn't one in Saigon anyway! I think I've just been lucky in otherwise having a pretty ideal build for longevity in distance running, not being too compulsive about training, not falling prey to the eating disorders that affect many young woman runners, and not having coaches who pushed me beyond my ability to handle it. My "retiring" from competitive running had nothing to do with injury or burnout, just pursuing other life goals and, to a lesser extent, an issue with coaching. I'm really happy now to have a situation, even if not ideal, where I can train and compete again.

    2014-06-17 8:23 AM
    in reply to: Fred D

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    Subject: RE: 10-year-old boy's distance running feats raise questions

    Originally posted by Fred D For those that don't know, LB will keep hammering his point home until you all agree. It's easier to surrender in these situations sometimes...

    Or......I'll agree with you if it makes more sense to me.  Of course, Fred, I'm talking about the collective "you" since you don't normally have anything.

    2014-06-17 8:30 AM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    date : March 29, 2013
    author : jtriathlete
    comments : 0
    I'm curious about the 'don't increase your run by more than 10% per week' rule. Is there a minimum mileage under which this doesn't apply?
     
    date : March 10, 2011
    author : Scott Tinley
    comments : 1
    Tinley on triathlon, aging, and the attitude of a masters athlete