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What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... (Page 3)
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 2014-06-24 2:50 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 10208   Northern IL |  Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty...Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by siouxcityhawk Originally posted by Left Brain Hassard - looking at the race results....how would you have qualified for AG nationals wihtout the penalty as you stated? You were 2nd in your AG out of 5. First place was 12 minutes ahead of you WITHOUT the penalty. You were going to be 2nd out of 5 in your AG, penalty or not. With only 5 in your AG that put you at top 40%....you don't quallify with that finish. Don't they take the top 3 of each AG to AG Nat? Or is it only the 10% rule?
I think they take everyone who wants to go. 10% is all I ever knew of. If it was top 3 then he's also already in and has nothing to gripe about. So he's either already in, or he was never going to be in.....but the penalty didn't change EITHER. It's top 10% of age group for most races. They might fudge the rounding a bit for some in the teens as well. For a regional championship race (as indicated on USAT) it's 33%. There might be some other small things specific to a few races, but this is basically it. ETA: There aren't guaranteed spots beyond winning the age group. Also took a look at the race results and saw the same thing LB did. 2nd of 5 people, so it doesn't really change the age group placing. Edited by brigby1 2014-06-24 2:58 PM |
| 2014-06-24 2:51 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by brigby1 Does anyone know what the pro rules were for this race? I don't, but know that they can have different rules than the age groupers at the same event. And it can lead to situations like this. If something like the (confusing) stagger rules were in effect, then she could have very well been in the right by staying to the left. If it hasn't been done already, suggest writing in to both USAT and the RD to see what should be done. May not do anything about the penalty since it's so far past the event, but could help push to addressing the situation better for the future. Agreed, especially about the silly stagger rule. This rule causes all kinds of confusion for elites let alone AGers that happen to get in the mix with elites. This really highlights the need to keep the two races separate to ensure situations like this do not arise. Shane But USAT elite (pro?) rules state that even with the stagger rule, an elite (pro?) cannot block another rider. Unless I am missing the point... And did someone say that 2:18 is a MOP Oly time? The confusion is the point. Don't block, don't follow, don't pass on the right. Someone gets caught up in this mess. But this isn't s pro/AG issue, is it? Pro has to move right if blocking, just like any AGer (ignore whether there was a pro ahead of her for the moment). Question is still, regardless of category, if blocking rider doesn't move over and you've entered the draft zone expecting them to move, and they don't, you don't have very good options regardles of who is blocking. Over the double yellow, drop back, to the right. All illegal. So what does one do (I have a hard time believing that any official would say cross the double yellow). |
| 2014-06-24 2:56 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by ChrisM But USAT elite (pro?) rules state that even with the stagger rule, an elite (pro?) cannot block another rider. Unless I am missing the point... And did someone say that 2:18 is a MOP Oly time? It is true but some athletes often don't understand how follow the stagger rule and also not block. This is further confounded when you have a multi loop bike course and elites are afraid of being dinged for not following the stagger rule and have a bunch of AGers in the mix as well. Shane |
| 2014-06-24 2:57 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655  | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by siouxcityhawk Originally posted by Left Brain Hassard - looking at the race results....how would you have qualified for AG nationals wihtout the penalty as you stated? You were 2nd in your AG out of 5. First place was 12 minutes ahead of you WITHOUT the penalty. You were going to be 2nd out of 5 in your AG, penalty or not. With only 5 in your AG that put you at top 40%....you don't quallify with that finish. Don't they take the top 3 of each AG to AG Nat? Or is it only the 10% rule?
I think they take everyone who wants to go. 10% is all I ever knew of. If it was top 3 then he's also already in and has nothing to gripe about. So he's either already in, or he was never going to be in.....but the penalty didn't change EITHER. It's top 10% of age group for most races. They might fudge the rounding a bit for some in the teens as well. For a regional championship race (as indicated on USAT) it's 33%. There might be some other small things specific to a few races, but this is basically it. Well, in any scenario the OP wasn't denied a slot because of a 2 minute penalty....and th emenalty made no difference in overall (awards) or AG standings.....it's a wash. Edited by Left Brain 2014-06-24 2:57 PM |
| 2014-06-24 3:00 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Chris (sorry, phone wouldn't let me quote), You are right - no good legal option at that point. Wait for them to move over, slow down and sit in the legal draft, pass on the inside (variable time penalty) pass over the yellow (DQ). Personally, I would pass right and take the penalty if given. However, I would also hang around and check the penalty list and probably protest if dinged. Shane |
| 2014-06-24 3:01 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
| Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by brigby1 Does anyone know what the pro rules were for this race? I don't, but know that they can have different rules than the age groupers at the same event. And it can lead to situations like this. If something like the (confusing) stagger rules were in effect, then she could have very well been in the right by staying to the left. If it hasn't been done already, suggest writing in to both USAT and the RD to see what should be done. May not do anything about the penalty since it's so far past the event, but could help push to addressing the situation better for the future. Agreed, especially about the silly stagger rule. This rule causes all kinds of confusion for elites let alone AGers that happen to get in the mix with elites. This really highlights the need to keep the two races separate to ensure situations like this do not arise. Shane But USAT elite (pro?) rules state that even with the stagger rule, an elite (pro?) cannot block another rider. Unless I am missing the point... And did someone say that 2:18 is a MOP Oly time? The confusion is the point. Don't block, don't follow, don't pass on the right. Someone gets caught up in this mess. But this isn't s pro/AG issue, is it? Pro has to move right if blocking, just like any AGer (ignore whether there was a pro ahead of her for the moment). Question is still, regardless of category, if blocking rider doesn't move over and you've entered the draft zone expecting them to move, and they don't, you don't have very good options regardles of who is blocking. Over the double yellow, drop back, to the right. All illegal. So what does one do (I have a hard time believing that any official would say cross the double yellow). At least the OP didn't resort to throwing punches. |
| 2014-06-24 3:03 PM in reply to: Jason N |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by Jason N At least the OP didn't resort to throwing punches. What about a gorilla? |
| 2014-06-24 3:06 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Jason N At least the OP didn't resort to throwing punches. What about a gorilla? or maybe.... a lamb...... |
| 2014-06-24 3:08 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Jason N At least the OP didn't resort to throwing punches. What about a gorilla? That would just be bananas. Any penalty should be apeeled. And if not overturned, you are allowed to go ape sh.. on the official. |
| 2014-06-24 3:13 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Expert 1224 Is this Heaven? No, it's Iowa. | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Jason N At least the OP didn't resort to throwing punches. What about a gorilla? That would just be bananas. Any penalty should be apeeled. And if not overturned, you are allowed to go ape sh.. on the official. Thread hi-jackers!!! LOL
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| 2014-06-24 3:22 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by fisherman76 2:18 is a MOP time in a race that attracts a pro field. ??? Including pros, 2:18 got you 102d place overall at that race. I stopped counting times at 1000......What am I missing here..... Sorry when I think FOP, MOP, BOP I don't think of it as 33.3/33.3/33.3. I think FOP is the pointy end of racing. I didn't look at results. I race in FL and 2:18 wouldn't top 20 a local race. Either way it's been pointed out the penalty didn't affect his going to AG nats |
| 2014-06-24 3:27 PM in reply to: rjrankin83 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... 2:18 is definately MBMFOP |
| 2014-06-24 3:29 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by Left Brain 2:18 is definately MBMFOP and i'm lost middlebackmiddlefrontofpack? |
| 2014-06-24 3:29 PM in reply to: rjrankin83 |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by rjrankin83 Originally posted by ChrisM Sorry when I think FOP, MOP, BOP I don't think of it as 33.3/33.3/33.3. I think FOP is the pointy end of racing. I didn't look at results. I race in FL and 2:18 wouldn't top 20 a local race. Either way it's been pointed out the penalty didn't affect his going to AG nats Originally posted by fisherman76 2:18 is a MOP time in a race that attracts a pro field. ??? Including pros, 2:18 got you 102d place overall at that race. I stopped counting times at 1000......What am I missing here..... I'm sure the FL course was a bit flatter. 102/1140 is a pretty good finish. Did you guys know Macca did the sprint on Saturday as an AG'er? |
| 2014-06-24 3:36 PM in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Philly? |
| 2014-06-24 3:42 PM in reply to: rjrankin83 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by rjrankin83 Originally posted by Left Brain and i'm lost middlebackmiddlefrontofpack? 2:18 is definately MBMFOP Oh....definately....maybe even MBFMFOP |
| 2014-06-24 3:51 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by rjrankin83 Originally posted by ChrisM Sorry when I think FOP, MOP, BOP I don't think of it as 33.3/33.3/33.3. I think FOP is the pointy end of racing. I didn't look at results. I race in FL and 2:18 wouldn't top 20 a local race. Either way it's been pointed out the penalty didn't affect his going to AG nats Originally posted by fisherman76 2:18 is a MOP time in a race that attracts a pro field. ??? Including pros, 2:18 got you 102d place overall at that race. I stopped counting times at 1000......What am I missing here..... Neither do i. But I don't think of top 10% (actually, top 8%) as MOP either (and considering you need top 10% AG to go to Nats...). You guys must live in some fast areas! Didn't mean to derail the thread.... just curious as to the comment I guess if you ain't first, you're last! Edited by ChrisM 2014-06-24 4:02 PM |
| 2014-06-24 4:08 PM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... |
| 2014-06-24 4:11 PM in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Philly? Yo! HAHAHAHA! |
| 2014-06-24 5:26 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Member 166 Delco, PA | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by Left Brain Hassard - looking at the race results....how would you have qualified for AG nationals wihtout the penalty as you stated? You were 2nd in your AG out of 5. First place was 12 minutes ahead of you WITHOUT the penalty. You were going to be 2nd out of 5 in your AG, penalty or not. With only 5 in your AG that put you at top 40%....you don't quallify with that finish. Ah well . I thought it was a 1st place finish in age group or top 10% overall.... 117 / 1140 overall I finished. Puts me in top 10.2% Would've finished 100 / 1140. 8.8%. Well I guess I shouldn't be complaining then if it's top 10% in age group. Thought it was 10% overall. |
| 2014-06-24 5:29 PM in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly |
Member 166 Delco, PA | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Originally posted by rjrankin83 Originally posted by ChrisM Sorry when I think FOP, MOP, BOP I don't think of it as 33.3/33.3/33.3. I think FOP is the pointy end of racing. I didn't look at results. I race in FL and 2:18 wouldn't top 20 a local race. Either way it's been pointed out the penalty didn't affect his going to AG nats Originally posted by fisherman76 2:18 is a MOP time in a race that attracts a pro field. ??? Including pros, 2:18 got you 102d place overall at that race. I stopped counting times at 1000......What am I missing here..... I'm sure the FL course was a bit flatter. 102/1140 is a pretty good finish. Did you guys know Macca did the sprint on Saturday as an AG'er? Macca did the sprint on Saturday and the bike leg on Sunday as part of a relay. He passed me on the course. It was awesome. Tried to stay with him for as long as I could haha |
| 2014-06-24 5:36 PM in reply to: C_Hassard |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by C_Hassard Originally posted by Left Brain Hassard - looking at the race results....how would you have qualified for AG nationals wihtout the penalty as you stated? You were 2nd in your AG out of 5. First place was 12 minutes ahead of you WITHOUT the penalty. You were going to be 2nd out of 5 in your AG, penalty or not. With only 5 in your AG that put you at top 40%....you don't quallify with that finish. Ah well . I thought it was a 1st place finish in age group or top 10% overall.... 117 / 1140 overall I finished. Puts me in top 10.2% Would've finished 100 / 1140. 8.8%. Well I guess I shouldn't be complaining then if it's top 10% in age group. Thought it was 10% overall. Still a great race for you, young man.......keep up the good work and you'll get there easily. |
| 2014-06-24 5:39 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Member 166 Delco, PA | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by C_Hassard Originally posted by Left Brain Hassard - looking at the race results....how would you have qualified for AG nationals wihtout the penalty as you stated? You were 2nd in your AG out of 5. First place was 12 minutes ahead of you WITHOUT the penalty. You were going to be 2nd out of 5 in your AG, penalty or not. With only 5 in your AG that put you at top 40%....you don't quallify with that finish. Ah well . I thought it was a 1st place finish in age group or top 10% overall.... 117 / 1140 overall I finished. Puts me in top 10.2% Would've finished 100 / 1140. 8.8%. Well I guess I shouldn't be complaining then if it's top 10% in age group. Thought it was 10% overall. Still a great race for you, young man.......keep up the good work and you'll get there easily. Thank you. This is my second year of racing. 17 years old now so hoping to do it for a much longer time. Aiming for a sub 2:10 next year on this course. |
| 2014-06-24 5:43 PM in reply to: C_Hassard |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by C_Hassard Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by C_Hassard Originally posted by Left Brain Hassard - looking at the race results....how would you have qualified for AG nationals wihtout the penalty as you stated? You were 2nd in your AG out of 5. First place was 12 minutes ahead of you WITHOUT the penalty. You were going to be 2nd out of 5 in your AG, penalty or not. With only 5 in your AG that put you at top 40%....you don't quallify with that finish. Ah well . I thought it was a 1st place finish in age group or top 10% overall.... 117 / 1140 overall I finished. Puts me in top 10.2% Would've finished 100 / 1140. 8.8%. Well I guess I shouldn't be complaining then if it's top 10% in age group. Thought it was 10% overall. Still a great race for you, young man.......keep up the good work and you'll get there easily. Thank you. This is my second year of racing. 17 years old now so hoping to do it for a much longer time. Aiming for a sub 2:10 next year on this course. Get down around 2:06 and you'll be close to qualifying for worlds. If you want to do the AG nationals race ....it's actually more age appropriate for you to do the sprint race and you don't need to qualify. You will be close right now to top 18 in your AG and worlds is in Chicago next year.....if you are close to Milwaukee and can swing it the weekend of August 9th (nationals) you should give it a go.....you definitely won't be outclassed in the race and have a great chance of getting in the AG world race next year. |
| 2014-06-24 6:10 PM in reply to: C_Hassard |
| Member 326 | Subject: RE: What Was I Supposed to Do? USAT Penalty... Originally posted by C_Hassard Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Originally posted by rjrankin83 Originally posted by ChrisM Sorry when I think FOP, MOP, BOP I don't think of it as 33.3/33.3/33.3. I think FOP is the pointy end of racing. I didn't look at results. I race in FL and 2:18 wouldn't top 20 a local race. Either way it's been pointed out the penalty didn't affect his going to AG nats Originally posted by fisherman76 2:18 is a MOP time in a race that attracts a pro field. ??? Including pros, 2:18 got you 102d place overall at that race. I stopped counting times at 1000......What am I missing here..... I'm sure the FL course was a bit flatter. 102/1140 is a pretty good finish. Did you guys know Macca did the sprint on Saturday as an AG'er? Macca did the sprint on Saturday and the bike leg on Sunday as part of a relay. He passed me on the course. It was awesome. Tried to stay with him for as long as I could haha Yeah, Macca was one swim group (6 people) in front of me, very cool. I saw him for about fifteen seconds once I was in the water, then once out on the bike course. |
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