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2014-06-23 4:03 PM

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Subject: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
I am doing IMFL in November and have always been a huge advocate of some serious speed work every Tuesday morning. I have tried to continue with this even though my plan doesn't really call for the amount I am doing. I train with a group. I am finding that I am getting slower during these workouts due to fatigue and then I am also not recovering as well for the following day's workout. What, if any, did you do for speed during the 20 weeks leading up to your first Ironman? I am doing a HIM in July and would like to stay respectable for my run split, but also realize I am not going to need to train for a lot of speed bursts for the IM I have sort of been combining the Be Iron Fit Intermediate plan with Matt Fitzgerald's level 2 plan for my Ironman training up to this point. They have short speed workouts intermixed into the 1 hour run days so far. I hate running alone but starting to wonder if the speed work is only hindering me for the rest of the week at this point. Should I stick with my group in hopes that I get stronger and can push through or should I drop down and do exactly what my plan says? I am not always so good at that.


2014-06-23 7:45 PM
in reply to: midwesttrimom

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out

How is your bike fitness?

 

2014-06-23 10:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
Originally posted by Birkierunner

How is your bike fitness?

 




WEAKEST LINK in the past. Right now I am doing speed 1 day per week on the bike, riding moderately one day, and then riding long one day. My long rides are just now getting into the 3 hour range. No problem with that, but I am not fast. Last year at my HIM I think I averaged 19.3 or something
like that. Would have to look it up. Fitness-wise, I would say I feel much stronger on the bike this year than I did last year at this time, but I do think I've lost some speed. I was averaging around 20 mph on the bike during my Olympics last year and not sure I could pull that off now. However, I could average a bit lower and bike for several hours from what my legs feel like. Recovery off the bike has been GREAT so far. I am amazed, as last year my legs were sore for a couple of days after 3-3.5 bike rides. I am typically a runner by nature...

Edited by midwesttrimom 2014-06-23 10:18 PM
2014-06-24 7:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out

You need to bike A LOT MORE.

My advice is to not worry about speed work run training while training for an IM.  Just run and run frequently to build the volume.

Back to the biking a lot more statement -- I'm going to be very blunt here... your speed work will be meaningless come race day as your current bike fitness will preclude you from running fast anyway.  Even if it wasn't I wouldn't recommend it because just about everyone excluding pros and elite AG'ers are reduced to the IM shuffle and slowest run you'll ever do.  You're already noticing you can't really handle the speed workouts while training for an IM.

You ask what I do for speed work for an IM.  The honest answer is nothing.  I just go out and run 4-6x per week.  I have a set time I'll run each time but I pretty much run at whatever pace I feel like.  I ran 47 miles last week (6,6,9,13,13) and 60 miles in 8 days.  I'm not sure I ever looked at my watch for pacing.  This week I'm not running and doing a big bike training week (14 hours on the bike) to give myself a huge bike fitness boost.

If I had to put a hierarchy of the three disciplines (S/B/R) for IM training it would be ranked:

  1. Bike
  2. Bike
  3. Bike
  4. Run
  5. Swim

I kid put you get the picture.  I'm not saying it's all about the bike but it's all about the bike.  You need to be properly trained for the swim so that it doesn't take a ton out of you at the beginning of the race.  Your run training and run ability don't mean squat if you don't come into the race with excellent bike fitness and bike execution (pacing and nutrition).  I know several Boston Qualifiers who thought they could run themselves into a good IM finish time only to watch their IM marathon take two hours longer than their open marathon time.  People over concern themselves with the run while they should be over concerned with the bike.  It's funny how the swim and run are what terrifies people about Ironman when the make or break leg of the race is the bike.

If I were your coach getting you through your first IM I would have you biking 4-5x per week.  I wouldn't concern yourself for one second about track speed work.  I'm not saying to run all your runs at some stupid slow pace.  Feel free to mix in some mile repeats but nothing too fast.  The IM training equation is part injury prevention and recovery almost as much as it is training.  Just remember that.

 



Edited by GMAN 19030 2014-06-24 7:46 AM
2014-06-24 11:56 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out

^^^^^^^   'zactly why I asked him how was his bike fitness  

2014-06-24 12:33 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

You need to bike A LOT MORE.

My advice is to not worry about speed work run training while training for an IM.  Just run and run frequently to build the volume.

Back to the biking a lot more statement -- I'm going to be very blunt here... your speed work will be meaningless come race day as your current bike fitness will preclude you from running fast anyway.  Even if it wasn't I wouldn't recommend it because just about everyone excluding pros and elite AG'ers are reduced to the IM shuffle and slowest run you'll ever do.  You're already noticing you can't really handle the speed workouts while training for an IM.

You ask what I do for speed work for an IM.  The honest answer is nothing.  I just go out and run 4-6x per week.  I have a set time I'll run each time but I pretty much run at whatever pace I feel like.  I ran 47 miles last week (6,6,9,13,13) and 60 miles in 8 days.  I'm not sure I ever looked at my watch for pacing.  This week I'm not running and doing a big bike training week (14 hours on the bike) to give myself a huge bike fitness boost.

If I had to put a hierarchy of the three disciplines (S/B/R) for IM training it would be ranked:

  1. Bike
  2. Bike
  3. Bike
  4. Run
  5. Swim

I kid put you get the picture.  I'm not saying it's all about the bike but it's all about the bike.  You need to be properly trained for the swim so that it doesn't take a ton out of you at the beginning of the race.  Your run training and run ability don't mean squat if you don't come into the race with excellent bike fitness and bike execution (pacing and nutrition).  I know several Boston Qualifiers who thought they could run themselves into a good IM finish time only to watch their IM marathon take two hours longer than their open marathon time.  People over concern themselves with the run while they should be over concerned with the bike.  It's funny how the swim and run are what terrifies people about Ironman when the make or break leg of the race is the bike.

If I were your coach getting you through your first IM I would have you biking 4-5x per week.  I wouldn't concern yourself for one second about track speed work.  I'm not saying to run all your runs at some stupid slow pace.  Feel free to mix in some mile repeats but nothing too fast.  The IM training equation is part injury prevention and recovery almost as much as it is training.  Just remember that.

 




Thanks. I think I have to agree and see how this can be inhibiting me rather than helping me. I am taking a lot of crap from my running group because I have gotten slower and am not focusing on speed, but I really feel like in order to have GOOD bike workouts I need to take it easy on the run. I am still running at an 8:30-8:45 pace on most runs, including the longer ones. I have NO plans to run a fast marathon and I just want to finish respectably. I don't even care if I have to shuffle and it takes me 6 hours on the run. Seriously! I just want to feel "okay" coming off the bike. I probably don't have time to bike 6 times per week, but I can certainly try to squeeze in 4 rides per week and increase my middle-distance rides. I appreciate your honest feedback. Advice from those who have done it is BEST, as the people giving me crap are mostly runners and very fast
Olympic triathletes!!! THANKS!


2014-06-24 12:37 PM
in reply to: midwesttrimom

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out

Originally posted by midwesttrimom
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

You need to bike A LOT MORE.

My advice is to not worry about speed work run training while training for an IM.  Just run and run frequently to build the volume.

Back to the biking a lot more statement -- I'm going to be very blunt here... your speed work will be meaningless come race day as your current bike fitness will preclude you from running fast anyway.  Even if it wasn't I wouldn't recommend it because just about everyone excluding pros and elite AG'ers are reduced to the IM shuffle and slowest run you'll ever do.  You're already noticing you can't really handle the speed workouts while training for an IM.

You ask what I do for speed work for an IM.  The honest answer is nothing.  I just go out and run 4-6x per week.  I have a set time I'll run each time but I pretty much run at whatever pace I feel like.  I ran 47 miles last week (6,6,9,13,13) and 60 miles in 8 days.  I'm not sure I ever looked at my watch for pacing.  This week I'm not running and doing a big bike training week (14 hours on the bike) to give myself a huge bike fitness boost.

If I had to put a hierarchy of the three disciplines (S/B/R) for IM training it would be ranked:

  1. Bike
  2. Bike
  3. Bike
  4. Run
  5. Swim

I kid put you get the picture.  I'm not saying it's all about the bike but it's all about the bike.  You need to be properly trained for the swim so that it doesn't take a ton out of you at the beginning of the race.  Your run training and run ability don't mean squat if you don't come into the race with excellent bike fitness and bike execution (pacing and nutrition).  I know several Boston Qualifiers who thought they could run themselves into a good IM finish time only to watch their IM marathon take two hours longer than their open marathon time.  People over concern themselves with the run while they should be over concerned with the bike.  It's funny how the swim and run are what terrifies people about Ironman when the make or break leg of the race is the bike.

If I were your coach getting you through your first IM I would have you biking 4-5x per week.  I wouldn't concern yourself for one second about track speed work.  I'm not saying to run all your runs at some stupid slow pace.  Feel free to mix in some mile repeats but nothing too fast.  The IM training equation is part injury prevention and recovery almost as much as it is training.  Just remember that.

 

Thanks. I think I have to agree and see how this can be inhibiting me rather than helping me. I am taking a lot of crap from my running group because I have gotten slower and am not focusing on speed, but I really feel like in order to have GOOD bike workouts I need to take it easy on the run. I am still running at an 8:30-8:45 pace on most runs, including the longer ones. I have NO plans to run a fast marathon and I just want to finish respectably. I don't even care if I have to shuffle and it takes me 6 hours on the run. Seriously! I just want to feel "okay" coming off the bike. I probably don't have time to bike 6 times per week, but I can certainly try to squeeze in 4 rides per week and increase my middle-distance rides. I appreciate your honest feedback. Advice from those who have done it is BEST, as the people giving me crap are mostly runners and very fast Olympic triathletes!!! THANKS!

Glad to see that you've taken the input to heart.  Remember, the key to the IM run is not to go fast, but to slow down as little as possible for the duration.

2014-06-24 1:45 PM
in reply to: midwesttrimom

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
" I am taking a lot of crap from my running group because I have gotten slower and am not focusing on speed, but I really feel like in order to have GOOD bike workouts I need to take it easy on the run"

How many of them are training for an IM? IM requires different training than a stand alone marathons...two different animals even though they are the same distance.
2014-06-25 8:10 AM
in reply to: midwesttrimom

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out

Jen, definitely agree with the other guys on working on the bike. I'm not as big as others on having a singular long ride, but look more at riding "lots". As in how much overall is being done during the week. Several good sized rides would help, but it's often hard for people to get another several hour ride in during the week. Leaving them with one bigger one during the week. If I remember correctly, you come from more of a running background and it's not necessarily *that* different. Keep going with the occasional short intervals, like a few minutes or less. This is like the track work. Also see about adding in some strong tempo work. Pushing yourself for a few repeats of 10,15, or 20 minutes each. I couldn't  tell if that was being done very often.  The harder work should be done by everybody, but it'll be especially important to get in for someone with less time.

And don't worry about what the running group. They have very different goals than you. Is it really that much of an issue the way they talk to you? In the masters group I'm with, they're very encouraging about getting out to do swimming events, but they don't single people out to put pressure on them and are very understanding about doing other things like triathlon. They actually like seeing some of the stuff I do outside of the water.

As for what you could do with running, mostly just keep getting in a bunch of running. Keep putting in mileage consistently every week how it fits best. And for faster work, you could (and probably should) do some things like strides, as they're helpful and low stress with the short duration. You could probably figure out how to get in a faster workout maybe every few weeks too. Be it a designed workout or maybe get into a local 5k event. Just consistently running a decent amount will be the priority in your run training though.

2014-06-25 8:59 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
Originally posted by brigby1

Jen, definitely agree with the other guys on working on the bike. I'm not as big as others on having a singular long ride, but look more at riding "lots". As in how much overall is being done during the week. Several good sized rides would help, but it's often hard for people to get another several hour ride in during the week. Leaving them with one bigger one during the week. If I remember correctly, you come from more of a running background and it's not necessarily *that* different. Keep going with the occasional short intervals, like a few minutes or less. This is like the track work. Also see about adding in some strong tempo work. Pushing yourself for a few repeats of 10,15, or 20 minutes each. I couldn't  tell if that was being done very often.  The harder work should be done by everybody, but it'll be especially important to get in for someone with less time.

And don't worry about what the running group. They have very different goals than you. Is it really that much of an issue the way they talk to you? In the masters group I'm with, they're very encouraging about getting out to do swimming events, but they don't single people out to put pressure on them and are very understanding about doing other things like triathlon. They actually like seeing some of the stuff I do outside of the water.

As for what you could do with running, mostly just keep getting in a bunch of running. Keep putting in mileage consistently every week how it fits best. And for faster work, you could (and probably should) do some things like strides, as they're helpful and low stress with the short duration. You could probably figure out how to get in a faster workout maybe every few weeks too. Be it a designed workout or maybe get into a local 5k event. Just consistently running a decent amount will be the priority in your run training though.




Most of my crew is very supportive but I have a few who think that giving up speed is going to severely hurt my IM finish time. In my mind I am imagining myself barely shuffling through the run course, stopping and talking to aid volunteers, eating, drinking, meeting other finishers, etc. I am not going to place in this event so why not enjoy the moment? My goal is feel decent coming off the bike. After that, I don't care much about what my marathon time is. I can hit a great marathon time when that's all I have to train for next year! I haven't ran a marathon in 7 years because I got so wrapped up in triathlon. I am fine with my time being slower. I will make it my goal to get on the bike more often!

I think half the battle is getting used to being alone all the time. I have been training with the same tri/running group for quite a few years
and we do it all together. Now, I am having a terrible time keeping up!
2014-07-01 8:09 AM
in reply to: midwesttrimom

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out

Well that's good to see most are supportive. Some single sports can have a more difficult time understanding the compromises that need to be made in order to have the best overall time. I think you're getting it that while the run is 26.2 miles it's not a marathon. It's not run with the same intensity (though it will likely still hurt) and it has two other big activities that can severely drain your energy right before. Some of what you're feeling in running slower could be just from the fatigue. Being on tired legs more often, or just tired in general from all the other activity. I still like the idea of getting in a few strides fairly regular, like a few times a week, as they are low total stress and can help with running economy. Then an occasional run including something faster than easy pacing. Being a better runner will certainly help the run go better, but no need to do everything a marathon plan would have. Most important for you will be to keep being active, so keep it up with the training!



2014-07-03 5:35 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
To pile on what was written up top; lots more bike. You should be able to ride 100+ and feel really good. I tend to overtrain the bike because the cost on the body is limited and the benefits carry over into the run. Speed work (run) is highly problematic for me as I tend to get injured. My solution is that I race a lot, so the 5K and 10Ks from Sprint and OD fill the 'speed work' gap. One interesting 'speed work' option is simply running at race pace. If you want to run a 3:30 in the IM, then one of your runs during the week you run at 7:50-8min/mile. The rest of the time you run 8:30-9:00.

To sum up, bike, bike and bike. You should bike IM distances on a regular basis.
2014-07-03 10:09 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030


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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

 It's funny how the swim and run are what terrifies people about Ironman when the make or break leg of the race is the bike..

 




I've noticed that too. When I did my first IM, my biggest concern and goal was getting to the end of the bike. I wasn't at all worried about the swim. I knew I could swim for as long as I had to. And I knew I'd be able to walk for hours if need be. I just wanted to get through 7 hours on the bike, I knew that was going to be the hardest part. Yes, the run hurts the most, but if you can't get thru the bike relatively unscathed it's not going to matter how strong of a runner your are.
2014-07-04 8:28 AM
in reply to: Birkierunner

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out

Originally posted by Birkierunner

Originally posted by midwesttrimom
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

You need to bike A LOT MORE.

My advice is to not worry about speed work run training while training for an IM.  Just run and run frequently to build the volume.

Back to the biking a lot more statement -- I'm going to be very blunt here... your speed work will be meaningless come race day as your current bike fitness will preclude you from running fast anyway.  Even if it wasn't I wouldn't recommend it because just about everyone excluding pros and elite AG'ers are reduced to the IM shuffle and slowest run you'll ever do.  You're already noticing you can't really handle the speed workouts while training for an IM.

You ask what I do for speed work for an IM.  The honest answer is nothing.  I just go out and run 4-6x per week.  I have a set time I'll run each time but I pretty much run at whatever pace I feel like.  I ran 47 miles last week (6,6,9,13,13) and 60 miles in 8 days.  I'm not sure I ever looked at my watch for pacing.  This week I'm not running and doing a big bike training week (14 hours on the bike) to give myself a huge bike fitness boost.

If I had to put a hierarchy of the three disciplines (S/B/R) for IM training it would be ranked:

  1. Bike
  2. Bike
  3. Bike
  4. Run
  5. Swim

I kid put you get the picture.  I'm not saying it's all about the bike but it's all about the bike.  You need to be properly trained for the swim so that it doesn't take a ton out of you at the beginning of the race.  Your run training and run ability don't mean squat if you don't come into the race with excellent bike fitness and bike execution (pacing and nutrition).  I know several Boston Qualifiers who thought they could run themselves into a good IM finish time only to watch their IM marathon take two hours longer than their open marathon time.  People over concern themselves with the run while they should be over concerned with the bike.  It's funny how the swim and run are what terrifies people about Ironman when the make or break leg of the race is the bike.

If I were your coach getting you through your first IM I would have you biking 4-5x per week.  I wouldn't concern yourself for one second about track speed work.  I'm not saying to run all your runs at some stupid slow pace.  Feel free to mix in some mile repeats but nothing too fast.  The IM training equation is part injury prevention and recovery almost as much as it is training.  Just remember that.

 

Thanks. I think I have to agree and see how this can be inhibiting me rather than helping me. I am taking a lot of crap from my running group because I have gotten slower and am not focusing on speed, but I really feel like in order to have GOOD bike workouts I need to take it easy on the run. I am still running at an 8:30-8:45 pace on most runs, including the longer ones. I have NO plans to run a fast marathon and I just want to finish respectably. I don't even care if I have to shuffle and it takes me 6 hours on the run. Seriously! I just want to feel "okay" coming off the bike. I probably don't have time to bike 6 times per week, but I can certainly try to squeeze in 4 rides per week and increase my middle-distance rides. I appreciate your honest feedback. Advice from those who have done it is BEST, as the people giving me crap are mostly runners and very fast Olympic triathletes!!! THANKS!

Glad to see that you've taken the input to heart.  Remember, the key to the IM run endurance sports is not to go fast, but to slow down as little as possible for the duration.

I agree 100% with what Jim and GMan posted above.  I'd even go as far as editing the statement like above.  This is one of the first concepts I teach all new endurance athletes.

 

2014-07-05 11:56 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
This week I did my speed work with my group but took my intervals up to a 10K pace and then ran the rest of my run in my comfort zone
around 8:20 pace. I felt GREAT and got in a good amount of mileage! Also, had one of the BEST long runs I've had all season on Thursday!
Thanks for the advice!
2014-07-05 12:43 PM
in reply to: midwesttrimom

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
Originally posted by midwesttrimom

This week I did my speed work with my group but took my intervals up to a 10K pace and then ran the rest of my run in my comfort zone
around 8:20 pace. I felt GREAT and got in a good amount of mileage! Also, had one of the BEST long runs I've had all season on Thursday!
Thanks for the advice!


If your comfort zone is 8:20 pace then I am assuming you run an open half marathon around 1h 35m or faster? I believe most people run way too hard for the majority of their runs. Running with a group on a regular basis magnifies this issue.

Anyone training for a HIM or IM *in my opinion* needs very little to absolutely zero speedwork on the run. Honestly, look at everyone but the top few % of the field at any IM or HIM race and you will see everyone jogging at a very "easy" pace. Of course, by that point in the day it doesn't feel easy at all but that's what it would be if you stepped out your front door feeling fresh.

I'm with everyone else above: log as many miles on the bike as you reasonably can, run as much as you can at an easy pace (even if that means heading out alone and skipping the track sessions,) and swim enough that you can start the bike feeling fresh.


2014-07-09 7:13 PM
in reply to: wbattaile

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Subject: RE: Speed work during Ironman training- 19 weeks out
Originally posted by wbattaile

Originally posted by midwesttrimom

This week I did my speed work with my group but took my intervals up to a 10K pace and then ran the rest of my run in my comfort zone
around 8:20 pace. I felt GREAT and got in a good amount of mileage! Also, had one of the BEST long runs I've had all season on Thursday!
Thanks for the advice!


If your comfort zone is 8:20 pace then I am assuming you run an open half marathon around 1h 35m or faster? I believe most people run way too hard for the majority of their runs. Running with a group on a regular basis magnifies this issue.

Anyone training for a HIM or IM *in my opinion* needs very little to absolutely zero speedwork on the run. Honestly, look at everyone but the top few % of the field at any IM or HIM race and you will see everyone jogging at a very "easy" pace. Of course, by that point in the day it doesn't feel easy at all but that's what it would be if you stepped out your front door feeling fresh.

I'm with everyone else above: log as many miles on the bike as you reasonably can, run as much as you can at an easy pace (even if that means heading out alone and skipping the track sessions,) and swim enough that you can start the bike feeling fresh.


No, honestly, my half marathon PR is around 1:39 (7:36 pace). I have been trying to keep ALL of my long runs (which are honestly not very long YET since I have 17 weeks left of my plan) under 8:45 pace. I think I will run most of my longer runs beyond 12 miles in the 8:45-9:00 pace. I am sure longer bricks would be much slower. Thanks for the info. I have been showing up the track and doing some Z3-Z4 intervals and then heading off for my last 30 minutes. That way I can see my running buddies but still get my run in. Been averaging between 6-7.5 miles on speed days and my Tuesday training run is 1 hour. I think it's going to work out. I invited a few that were giving me crap to come and swim my 3000s with me after every Tuesday morning run. They politely declined.
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