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2014-07-07 3:49 PM
in reply to: motoguy128

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Subject: RE: Run Faster
Originally posted by motoguy128

For a TRIATHLETE trying to improve their run, I would not following a training plan designed for a runner. I would just run more.

Remember runners NEED more higher intensity cardio work because they are not doing swim or bike training to provide that for them. I mean seriously, how much does even an elite runner actually run, 10 hours a week? (~100 miles) My easy recovery weeks are 11-12 hours. I don't think runners are often the best qualified to help triathletes learn to run better, other than during a Fall run focus after your triathlon season is over.

Runners are also very good and getting injured a lot. The one time I tried to push it and train more like a runner, I got injured. I've trained more like a triathlete since then doing mostly slower paced runs and I'm doing a lot better and destroying PR's.

Remember, you can't run a PR if your injured and cannot train.


That is one of my biggest down falls. When I run consecutive days my shine splints go crazy. I try to maintain my legs as much as possible (e.g. compression socks, monitor my protein intake, massages) which is why I really only run 3 days a week and bike and swim the others. That helps me get the break I need and continue to improve my fitness level.


2014-07-07 3:58 PM
in reply to: Clempson

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Subject: RE: Run Faster

Originally posted by Clempson

I'm reading a lot about people saying speed work and intervals and blah blah blah in this thread, but I'm going to be honest: unless you are doing 30 miles a week sustained for at least 6 weeks on average don't bother. you are going to gain from just running more with less chance of injury.  once you get where you are at that magic "30 mile" point then consider it, but only one day a week to start.  Doing heart rate zone training will natural increase your pace as your fitness improves. don't force the fitness. 

 

Are you serious? I'm guessing you are. That's... uuummm... interesting.... if it works for you, great! That won't work for everyone....30 miles a week as a start. Who came up with this "magic" number anyhow? Maybe there have been studies? 

 

2014-07-07 3:59 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Run Faster
Originally posted by jennifer_runs

Originally posted by Nvmiller

I need help... I can't seem to get faster on my runs. I would say my average is 10 min miles and once I start training towards 9 mins I always get injured (shine splints, IT Band issues, etc). I follow a training plan and I dont think I'm pushing myself too much. I just don't know what to do. Also, I can't seem to run the entire time. I walk after about 2 miles each time which kills my time.

Nina


What does your typical week look like? How many miles at 10:00/mile are you doing? When you say a training plan, does it have set paces you are trying to hit? If so, how are you determining those paces?

If you are just trying to gradually go faster all the time, then this could lead to overuse and injuries. You won't be doing enough easy running in order to let your body absorb the increased speed. You don't need a complicated training plan, but it does help to have some planned workouts in order to learn to run faster. I would be you are simply trying to do too much faster running, which is leading to fatigue and overuse.

Lots of people have talked about volume, and that's pretty important. This volume buildup should be at your easy pace, until you have a decent base. And when you have a decent base, add in some faster running, starting in one of your runs per week. Like short tempo segments (for example, start with, "comfortably hard" for 10 minutes, recover for 2 minutes, repeat another 10 minutes), or some shorter intervals (for example, start with something like 4-6 x 3 min hard with 3 min recovery). You don't need to look at your pace for these runs yet-- just go by feel. But when you are ready to look at pace...

If your "easy" pace is about 10:00/mile, then you might be doing those tempo segments at about 9:00/mile and the faster intervals at about 8:00/mile. But then MOST of your running in the week will still be 10:00/mile or slower. But in general, those paces should be set based on your current fitness. That is, you would be able to run a 5K race in about 25 minutes to do those speed work paces. Use one of the running calculators to get a feel for what paces you might be doing. If you can't do an all out 5K race in about 25 minutes (and I mean a stand-alone, properly measured 5K), then trying to do all your running at 9:00/mile is a recipe for injury. You may actually need to slow down your easy pace in order to do the faster stuff at 9:00/mile and then later faster. A lot of people become one-pace runners by doing all their runs at their "in between pace"-- this could be you too.



Hi Jennifer -

This was very helpful. I feel like my fitness level is pretty strong - but based on some of the repsonses maybe not . I am doing my runs at a 9 min pace now but I am pushing myself quite a bit. I can say for certain I can not run a 5k under 25 minutes. Sooo maybe i need to increase the number of days I run and just try to get in a mile or two instead of 3-4 miles and focus on what you mentioned above.


Thanks for all the responses (and disagreements) I am new to BT and this was such a great response!

Nina
2014-07-07 4:50 PM
in reply to: Nvmiller

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Subject: RE: Run Faster
Originally posted by Nvmiller

Hi Matt -

I am running about 3 times a week normally 3-4 miles (twice) and then a longer run 6-8 miles on the weekend. Normally I am staying at a 10 min mile for the 3 to 4 mile runs and then it might get closer to 11 for the longer runs.


I don't want to come across as mean spirited but this is probably why you aren't getting faster. At best you are only running 16 miles a week. I am willing to bet when you look at your logs, the real mileage is even less. I see it a lot when reviewing logs and see the same issue when I get lazy. By running more frequently even though the runs are shorter, you can really build the mileage. 2.5m 3x, 5m 2x and a long run of 7.5 will give you 25 miles/week. 2m x3, 4m x2 and 6 will give you 20 miles which is still more than you are doing now. The 2 or 2.5 will seem ridiculously easy so enjoy them
2014-07-07 5:05 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Run Faster

Originally posted by KSH

Originally posted by Clempson

I'm reading a lot about people saying speed work and intervals and blah blah blah in this thread, but I'm going to be honest: unless you are doing 30 miles a week sustained for at least 6 weeks on average don't bother. you are going to gain from just running more with less chance of injury.  once you get where you are at that magic "30 mile" point then consider it, but only one day a week to start.  Doing heart rate zone training will natural increase your pace as your fitness improves. don't force the fitness. 

 

Are you serious? I'm guessing you are. That's... uuummm... interesting.... if it works for you, great! That won't work for everyone....30 miles a week as a start. Who came up with this "magic" number anyhow? Maybe there have been studies? 

 

I didn't read that as 30 mpw as a start --- I read that as it's important to have a solid base before doing speed work (as in, not a great idea to be running 10-20 mpw and doing half of those miles as interval work).

I know YMMV, but I've found that increased mileage --> increased speed. For me. Again, my experience: running more (volume, distance, frequency) dropped my marathon time almost an hour, and I've never been injured (twinges here and there but never any real injury).

I think we all can agree (??!) that what the OP is running isn't enough to get faster.



Edited by trishie 2014-07-07 5:10 PM
2014-07-07 7:07 PM
in reply to: Nvmiller

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Subject: RE: Run Faster

Originally posted by Nvmiller  Hi Jennifer - This was very helpful. I feel like my fitness level is pretty strong - but based on some of the repsonses maybe not . I am doing my runs at a 9 min pace now but I am pushing myself quite a bit. I can say for certain I can not run a 5k under 25 minutes. Sooo maybe i need to increase the number of days I run and just try to get in a mile or two instead of 3-4 miles and focus on what you mentioned above. Thanks for all the responses (and disagreements) I am new to BT and this was such a great response! Nina

Yes, that's both what you want to do and how you want to do it. More frequent runs and do less each run to accomplish that. It will build up over time. Slow the pace down too. That sounds too hard and too often to run that fast. I'd just learn how to consistently get in a number of runs first, and then look at adding in some faster running. Eventually it will develop into mostly easy and sometimes hard, but first learn how to be able to consistently get in a run.



2014-07-08 7:51 AM
in reply to: pschriver


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Subject: RE: Run Faster
Originally posted by pschriver

Originally posted by Nvmiller

Hi Matt -

I am running about 3 times a week normally 3-4 miles (twice) and then a longer run 6-8 miles on the weekend. Normally I am staying at a 10 min mile for the 3 to 4 mile runs and then it might get closer to 11 for the longer runs.


I don't want to come across as mean spirited but this is probably why you aren't getting faster. At best you are only running 16 miles a week. I am willing to bet when you look at your logs, the real mileage is even less. I see it a lot when reviewing logs and see the same issue when I get lazy. By running more frequently even though the runs are shorter, you can really build the mileage. 2.5m 3x, 5m 2x and a long run of 7.5 will give you 25 miles/week. 2m x3, 4m x2 and 6 will give you 20 miles which is still more than you are doing now. The 2 or 2.5 will seem ridiculously easy so enjoy them


This...run more. Depending on races and tri goals, you may even consider a run focus at some point. Build your mileage slowly but stay consistent in terms of the number of days you run.

Given your mileage, I would encourage you to not do speedwork. Build up your mileage and get to the point to where you are running 5 to 6 days a week without feeling like you are going to hurt yourself. You might also want to focus a bit on your form, depending on what it is like. Once those things are under control, then look at changing it up.

Matt
2014-07-08 8:24 AM
in reply to: Nvmiller

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Subject: RE: Run Faster

Originally posted by Nvmiller  When I run consecutive days my shine splints go crazy. I try to maintain my legs as much as possible (e.g. compression socks, monitor my protein intake, massages) which is why I really only run 3 days a week and bike and swim the others. That helps me get the break I need and continue to improve my fitness level.

Shin splints are generally the result of poor run form first and the wrong shoes second.

2014-07-08 5:16 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Run Faster
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by Nvmiller  When I run consecutive days my shine splints go crazy. I try to maintain my legs as much as possible (e.g. compression socks, monitor my protein intake, massages) which is why I really only run 3 days a week and bike and swim the others. That helps me get the break I need and continue to improve my fitness level.

Shin splints are generally the result of poor run form first and the wrong shoes second.




Agreed. Shin splints really have nothing to do with running more or consecutive days other than you are exacerbating poor form or wrong shoe issues.
2014-07-08 10:45 PM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: Run Faster

Originally posted by donw
Originally posted by mroger82
Originally posted by EKH
Originally posted by colinphillips
Originally posted by zedzded If you just do a 5mile run every time you run, you'll end up plodding along at the same pace. You need to do interval work, so you become accustomed to running at a higher pace.
I beg to differ. Running fitness doesn't work that way. Interval training can be good for some people, at some points in their run training. But it pales in comparison to running often, being light, and -- most important of all -- staying uninjured. Some people can do the high intensity stuff without getting injured, others not so much.
100% agree!
Nah, you have to speed up in training if you expect to speed up in racing. There's no special magic that happens on race day where you suddenly become faster. If you train slow, you'll race slow. Speed has to be put in place at some point in training if you want to get faster. If you are becoming injured during your speed training, it's likely because of form break down.
That's right, there's no magic - what's required is a "progressive overload of training" which doesn't necessarily require running fast in training. The quotes are because I found the phrase in Shane's excellent explanation at the start of the thread that I have linked below. http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid... Don

To the original poster: Welcome to BT!

The link Don referenced above is really required reading (distills decades of the best and most commonly agreed on running advice from the people with the most experience with runners--not us, I mean justly famous people--into one thread with easily readable and understandable posts).

Again for emphasis:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=503881&page=1

 

2014-07-09 12:44 PM
in reply to: Nvmiller


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Subject: RE: Run Faster
Nina.

i will present a different approach. I was helping my co-worker prep for marathons/half marathons races. the more she ran, the more she would hate it or get injured some times. one day she decided she would start cycling and she purchased a bike and a trainer. introduced her to trainerroad and magic happened overnight. she ran less and started doing the TR workouts. she just missed going under 2 hrs recently at a HM and improved her 10k per mile time and is injury free and enjoying the workouts. she even goes, i dont even have to run as much anymore because TR is getting me in shape. So, im all cool with increasing volume and intervals and whatever else was discussed, but this alternate plan worked for my co-worker and could work for you.

good luck.



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