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Run Faster
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 2014-07-01 2:09 PM |
 33 |  Subject: Run FasterI need help... I can't seem to get faster on my runs. I would say my average is 10 min miles and once I start training towards 9 mins I always get injured (shine splints, IT Band issues, etc). I follow a training plan and I dont think I'm pushing myself too much. I just don't know what to do. Also, I can't seem to run the entire time. I walk after about 2 miles each time which kills my time. Nina  |
| 2014-07-01 2:23 PM in reply to: Nvmiller |
| 18 | Subject: RE: Run Faster I'm a believer in running with high frequency 6-7 times a week, and maximizing overall mileage. But not doing any fast running, you should improve your durability, and by running more, you body will hopefully adapt and learn to run with better economy. It might not work for everyone. It work great for me. 1 thing to focus on it using a higher cadence. That and do some hill repeats to teach yourself better running form (driving the knees forward, laning with your foot under you not out in front) It's almost impossible not to do both of those running uphill. A hill repeats in just 8-12 second "sprint" uphill, then walk down and catch your breath. You can start out with 4-6 and work up to 10-12 of these. Do them 1-2 times a week. to run more, you can consider running 6 days a week and follow this pattern: 2X-1X-3X-off-2X-1X. Feel free to rearrange the off day and sequence of 2X and 3X days. the point is that you do a short run alternated with a medium or long run. the distance of these runs uses a mileage "base". SO starting out it might be as little as 15 minutes of run/walk. But you'd end up running 150 minutes that week, without ever running more than 45 minutes at a time. The plan can scale from 10 miles per week (base of 1 mile) to 60 miles per week (base of 60 miles). Beyond 60mpw, you need to add a 7th and/or 8th run. Triathletes don't need to worry about that. Only elite AG or pros need to be running over 50mpw. Everyone else should be biking more. |
| 2014-07-01 8:32 PM in reply to: motoguy128 |
Master 2563   University Park, MD | Subject: RE: Run Faster I more or less agree with all of the above, except that the parts about hills and worrying about form are very much an individual thing. Some people need it, if they're doing things that are really not good for them, but in general our body knows what to do. In general, if you can just run lots, be light, and stay uninjured, you'll do well. I often struggle with at least one of those three, but when they come together for a while it's great. The other thing that I'd add: the plan above (which is known in these parts as the BarryP 3-2-1 plan) is even more adaptable. I've used variants on it at all stages of fitness, going from less than 10 mpw up to 80 mpw. What it does well is ensure that no run accounts is an especially large stressor, relative to what you're doing on other days. Good luck! |
| 2014-07-01 8:41 PM in reply to: colinphillips |
471 | Subject: RE: Run Faster Interval work e.g 16 x 400m on the 3 mins. |
| 2014-07-01 8:45 PM in reply to: zedzded |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Run Faster If you just do a 5mile run every time you run, you'll end up plodding along at the same pace. You need to do interval work, so you become accustomed to running at a higher pace. e.g 16 x 400m on the 3 mins. You'll find these very hard at first, but you'll be amazed at what a difference it makes to your running. Do it 2 - 3 times a week. Also it will give your shin splints and ITB a bit of a rest. Do it on a 400m track, preferably grass for lower impact. |
| 2014-07-01 8:51 PM in reply to: zedzded |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by zedzded If you just do a 5mile run every time you run, you'll end up plodding along at the same pace. You need to do interval work, so you become accustomed to running at a higher pace. I beg to differ. Running fitness doesn't work that way. Interval training can be good for some people, at some points in their run training. But it pales in comparison to running often, being light, and -- most important of all -- staying uninjured. Some people can do the high intensity stuff without getting injured, others not so much. |
| 2014-07-01 9:11 PM in reply to: Nvmiller |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: Run Faster you're training log is empty so it is hard to say what you can do differently. stop worrying about pace for starters and start using a heart rate monitor if you can, that is the real gauge of effort. some people work as hard to run a 10 minute mile as other do to run a 7, but you have to start somewhere. I would recommend trying to run as often as you can, and stretch well after each run. the runs don't have to be long, just get out and run a mile on a day you aren't currently running. frequency and consistency are key to building run fitness. you can't force gains by trying to run faster, that is how you get injured quickly. |
| 2014-07-01 9:43 PM in reply to: Nvmiller |
Master 2094 | Subject: RE: Run Faster I feel your pain. When I started this sport my running was pitiful. My goal was to break 30' in a 5k. I followed generic plans that had hill repeats and track intervals and simply ended banged up and barely able to walk. I tried slowly speeding up my training pace each week and had no improvements. I started following the BarryP plan and slowly built my mileage. My pace seemed pitifully slow 11-12 min/miles but at races I would easily run 9 min/miles. I'm still pretty slow and struggling to break a 22 min 5k (PR 22:33) but my daily runs are all at 10 min/mile pace. If you are finding you have to walk after 2 miles, you are starting too hard. Nobody really cares how fast you run during training except yourself. Consider the 1x,2x,3x strategy and add 10% every week or so. Be patient and then then run a 5k in 8-12 weeks. You will be surprised how much faster you have become. Consistency is the key Intervals and hill repeats work for some people but I think the majority of slower people will improve by just running more. |
| 2014-07-01 9:45 PM in reply to: colinphillips |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by colinphillips Originally posted by zedzded If you just do a 5mile run every time you run, you'll end up plodding along at the same pace. You need to do interval work, so you become accustomed to running at a higher pace. But it pales in comparison to running often, being light, and -- most important of all -- staying uninjured. Some people can do the high intensity stuff without getting injured, others not so much. Yeah I agree. But I've seen quite a few people get into running/triathlon and when they swim, they do 2km straight, plodding up and down the pool, when the run they run for 3 miles, plodding along, never really getting any faster. I was suggesting interval stuff as it can be effective, but it also can highlight how unfit you really are. Get someone who runs 4 times a week at plodding pace, get them doing 400m intervals and they'll probably collapse after 3 or 4. Also from an injury perspective, yes doing interval stuff can be more problematic for some, you're using different muscles, but for me< i do get a bit sore running 3 days on the trot, so I like to mix it up by doing interval stuff on grass. I suppose it all comes down to the runner and their ability. |
| 2014-07-01 10:15 PM in reply to: colinphillips |
Expert 1644 Oklahoma | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by colinphillips Originally posted by zedzded If you just do a 5mile run every time you run, you'll end up plodding along at the same pace. You need to do interval work, so you become accustomed to running at a higher pace. I beg to differ. Running fitness doesn't work that way. Interval training can be good for some people, at some points in their run training. But it pales in comparison to running often, being light, and -- most important of all -- staying uninjured. Some people can do the high intensity stuff without getting injured, others not so much. 100% agree! |
| 2014-07-02 7:40 AM in reply to: Nvmiller |
| 80 | Subject: RE: Run Faster Can you give us an idea of what your run volume has been lately, say the past 6 months? Matt |
| 2014-07-02 7:55 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 305 Springfield/Branson | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by EKH Originally posted by colinphillips Originally posted by zedzded If you just do a 5mile run every time you run, you'll end up plodding along at the same pace. You need to do interval work, so you become accustomed to running at a higher pace. I beg to differ. Running fitness doesn't work that way. Interval training can be good for some people, at some points in their run training. But it pales in comparison to running often, being light, and -- most important of all -- staying uninjured. Some people can do the high intensity stuff without getting injured, others not so much. 100% agree! Nah, you have to speed up in training if you expect to speed up in racing. There's no special magic that happens on race day where you suddenly become faster. If you train slow, you'll race slow. Speed has to be put in place at some point in training if you want to get faster. If you are becoming injured during your speed training, it's likely because of form break down. Edited by mroger82 2014-07-02 7:57 PM |
| 2014-07-02 8:11 PM in reply to: mroger82 |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by mroger82 Nah, you have to speed up in training if you expect to speed up in racing. There's no special magic that happens on race day where you suddenly become faster. If you train slow, you'll race slow. Speed has to be put in place at some point in training if you want to get faster. If you are becoming injured during your speed training, it's likely because of form break down. I stand by the claim that this is not needed. And that running is different in that regard. I would agree with you in the case of swimming, and to some degree for biking (where it's the intensity in w/kg, rather than the speed that matters). I recently ran a 10 miler in 59:xx. I haven't done any running speed work in years, and every mile in that race was faster than any mile that I've run in training in the last 2.5 years. It still surprises me that this is possible in running, as I come from a background with lots of intervals etc. (25 years ago). But others here report similar experiences. I have no evidence that the same holds for swimming or biking. Why is running different? Not sure, but I strongly suspect that it's because a primary limiter is the ability to sustain repeated eccentric contractions. It's not just an aerobic limiter. That's why run fitness is more transferable across paces than bike or swim fitness. |
| 2014-07-02 8:40 PM in reply to: colinphillips |
Veteran 305 Springfield/Branson | Subject: RE: Run Faster Given that same logic, I guess I could walk every day and then come race day expect a fantastic result. |
| 2014-07-02 8:51 PM in reply to: mroger82 |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by mroger82 Given that same logic, I guess I could walk every day and then come race day expect a fantastic result. If you could induce substantial eccentric stress on key muscle groups, then yes, that should work. But most walking would not do that. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of hiking down steep hills could be beneficial for running, despite the minimal aerobic stress. The same muscles feel beaten up after hiking downhill that get sore after a long hard run. (But you're making a slippery slope argument based on what I said, and I'm sure you can do better than that.) Anyway, it is a *fact* that for many people a diet of steady running can make them run faster, even if they do not train at that pace. So the challenge is to explain why that is true, not to argue that it couldn't possibly be true. I have no evidence that it's true for everybody, just that it is true for many people. |
| 2014-07-02 10:13 PM in reply to: mroger82 |
Veteran 495 Calgary | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by mroger82 Originally posted by EKH Originally posted by colinphillips Originally posted by zedzded If you just do a 5mile run every time you run, you'll end up plodding along at the same pace. You need to do interval work, so you become accustomed to running at a higher pace. I beg to differ. Running fitness doesn't work that way. Interval training can be good for some people, at some points in their run training. But it pales in comparison to running often, being light, and -- most important of all -- staying uninjured. Some people can do the high intensity stuff without getting injured, others not so much. 100% agree! Nah, you have to speed up in training if you expect to speed up in racing. There's no special magic that happens on race day where you suddenly become faster. If you train slow, you'll race slow. Speed has to be put in place at some point in training if you want to get faster. If you are becoming injured during your speed training, it's likely because of form break down. That's right, there's no magic - what's required is a "progressive overload of training" which doesn't necessarily require running fast in training. The quotes are because I found the phrase in Shane's excellent explanation at the start of the thread that I have linked below. http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid... Don |
| 2014-07-02 10:22 PM in reply to: donw |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: Run Faster I'm reading a lot about people saying speed work and intervals and blah blah blah in this thread, but I'm going to be honest: unless you are doing 30 miles a week sustained for at least 6 weeks on average don't bother. you are going to gain from just running more with less chance of injury. once you get where you are at that magic "30 mile" point then consider it, but only one day a week to start. Doing heart rate zone training will natural increase your pace as your fitness improves. don't force the fitness.
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| 2014-07-02 10:30 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by Clempson I'm reading a lot about people saying speed work and intervals and blah blah blah in this thread, but I'm going to be honest: unless you are doing 30 miles a week sustained for at least 6 weeks on average don't bother. you are going to gain from just running more with less chance of injury. once you get where you are at that magic "30 mile" point then consider it, but only one day a week to start. Doing heart rate zone training will natural increase your pace as your fitness improves. don't force the fitness. Not always true.....athletic ability differs for everyone. That's why these discussion are so much fun and easily lead to arguments. You can't make blanket statements like "unless you are doing 30 mpw for at least 6 weeks don't bother". The athletes I see every day NEVER have ran 30 mpw in their lives.....fast would be a vast understatement for them compared to 90% of the times posted here. You can blah,blah,blah speed work and intervals all you want.....but you can't keep up with them for anything 10K or under. You can't learn to run fast just by running more. Oh....you'll get "faster"...but you'll never reach your potential. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-02 10:34 PM |
| 2014-07-02 10:37 PM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: Run Faster yeah and those kids you are comparing all the middle age people here to have a much shorter recover span. pretty much everyone on this boards potential maxed before they even registered an account. Edited by Clempson 2014-07-02 10:41 PM |
| 2014-07-02 10:47 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: Run Faster i made a blanket statement because the OP has no workout logs and stated 10 min/mile as training pace. I think in this case I was on par for safe advice. |
| 2014-07-02 11:35 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by Clempson yeah and those kids you are comparing all the middle age people here to have a much shorter recover span. pretty much everyone on this boards potential maxed before they even registered an account. I don't buy it. There are plenty of kids who buy into the 500-700 mile summer programs before XC season starts. They come back the next year the same speed...because they run the same speed all the time. They don't get faster.....they are the same second and third tier runners they always have been. It's the standard line that if you want to swim faster you need to swim fast intervals.....if you want to bike faster then you have to do fast bike work. Hell, if you want to get stronger you have to lift progressively more weight......but if you want to run faster you just run more slower. That makes no sense. In the meantime, the fast runners run fast ALOT....and get faster....on half the miles. You have no problem saying that you have to add progressively more stress, but then completely leave out the idea that stress can be added by running faster the same as it can by running longer. Then you launch into the idea that running faster means more injury, all while people who run more fall down left and right from overuse injuries. I get the age thing, but it's not the only limiter. I get the "build a base" thing....but I disagree that the only way to build a base is by running slow. Fast doesn't have to be 60 second 400's. But if you want to run faster you have to train faster. How much of that stress you can do depends wildly on individuals and athletic ability much more than it does age. It makes no sense that you can recover from a 10 mile run easier tan you can 8 X 400 at a faster pace then you normally run....and THAT will make you faster one hell of a lot easier on your body than all those miles. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-02 11:36 PM |
| 2014-07-03 12:33 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by Left Brain You can blah,blah,blah speed work and intervals all you want.....but you can't keep up with them for anything 10K or under. You can't learn to run fast just by running more. Oh....you'll get "faster"...but you'll never reach your potential. Exactly! You can't just plod along every day during your 10km run then come race day increase your speed and hope to hold it. Perhaps there are some runners that could do that, but for most people their bodies would just go "WTF? I don't think so pal....." Aside from any conditioning aspects of not doing speed work there's also the mental/psychological side of it - it's going to feel completely foreign accelerating to speeds you're not used to and you won't know how fast you can go and how long you can hold that speed for. if you're doing 400m intervals say at 1.30 coming in at 1.20 - that's 3.20 mins/km pace. That means in a 5 or 10km race you could probably hold that pace for at least the last km, if not more. You can't take someone that only runs 4.30/km pace and expect them to accelerate to 3.20 mins/km without any speed work. Or to put it another way, someone that has done the speed work, will feel comfortable accelerating to this speed, it won't feel foreign and they know from their 400m training they can hold that for at least a couple of minutes. Edited by zedzded 2014-07-03 12:36 AM |
| 2014-07-03 5:02 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: Run Faster Again, let's be clear here folks. The question is not "Can you get faster (at *endurance running*) without intervals etc.?". We already know that the answer to that is "yes". The relevant questions are "Why does it work?", "What are the relative benefits of speed work vs. mileage for getting faster?", and "Are different types of runners (age, body type, background, ...) better suited by different approaches to getting faster?" All of those are useful questions. Saying "it makes no sense" here just amounts to saying "I am unable to understand", or "I refuse to believe the evidence". |
| 2014-07-03 5:16 AM in reply to: colinphillips |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by colinphillips Again, let's be clear here folks. The question is not "Can you get faster (at *endurance running*) without intervals etc.?". We already know that the answer to that is "yes". The relevant questions are "Why does it work?", "What are the relative benefits of speed work vs. mileage for getting faster?", and "Are different types of runners (age, body type, background, ...) better suited by different approaches to getting faster?" All of those are useful questions. Saying "it makes no sense" here just amounts to saying "I am unable to understand", or "I refuse to believe the evidence". I get what you're saying. I guess there are so many variables, so many different types of runners that it's too hard to say one type of training will work whereas another type won't. I guess I was aiming my comments at the OP and others who are exceptionally slow. I have found a lot of slow runners and swimmers have this habit of just doing a workout at the same pace, with little variance e.g 1km swim up and down the pool or a laboriously slow jog, where the pace and distance never changes. And because all they do is plod along doing 6min/kms it's too a big an ask on their body to accelerate say to 4.30min/km even for a few km. So basically, i think there are runners of all abilities that would definitely benefit from speed work, some could thrive without it.  |
| 2014-07-03 7:21 AM in reply to: mroger82 |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Run Faster Originally posted by mroger82 Nah, you have to speed up in training if you expect to speed up in racing. There's no special magic that happens on race day where you suddenly become faster. If you train slow, you'll race slow. Speed has to be put in place at some point in training if you want to get faster. Just not remotely accurate. |
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