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2014-07-16 11:33 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by sheesleeva my only input is this: "The current process is a joke and it's virtually impossible to become a citizen for anyone without a lot of time/money/connections" this is FALSE. certainly having connections gets you on the super fast train, but the vast majority of those gaining citizenship have ZERO connections - unless you have a different definition of "connections." and depending on your definition of "a lot of money," this too is wrong. The fees for the application, including fingerprints and background checks, are just under $700. in terms of time, if you sent in all the correct paperwork, don't have a criminal record, there isn't something suspicious, and you are qualified, it can happen in less than six months ...yes, without connections or "a lot" of money. "We kind of do this with work Visa's but it's very expensive with a lot of loopholes, so it's primarily used for high end white collar jobs" again, FALSE. I have seen people get a work visa for working in a butcher shop, and grocery store, and a dairy farm milker. Is that high end white collar? are nurses high end white collar? I would like a definition of high end white collar if you are going to claim it's primarily used for high end white collar. the process is actually quite lenient if an employer is willing to sponsor an employee it is a mess, but don't post false information. as an aside, have a look at the denaturalization program and why it came about. you cannot flood CIS with 13 million naturalization applications and expect applications to be approved in a month, unless you really don't care about their criminal history.

I was fortunate enough to be born in the US so I didn't have to go through the process, but I've never seen anyone who has said it was easy or cheap.  I have a friend of mine whose actually a waitress at a restaurant who has been trying to get citizenship for over 10 years.  She's been living here legally on a student visa, but is running out of degree's to get and has spent many thousands of dollars on the process and has no end in sight.
Path to U.S. Citizenship Costly, Tedious

Immigration Reform: How Hard Is It To Become A US Citizen?

More 12.5 million individuals last year applied for a visa under the Diversity Immigrant Visa program, which offers residents of select countries a chance at winning one of 55,000 available permanent resident cards. Even though most applicants have less than 0.01 percent chance of winning this lottery, it is an easier path to citizenship than most others.

The $700 you mention is just for the application fee at the very end of the journey, but there is a whole lot more to it than that because you have to get here first.  Once you're in the US legally for 5 years, then you can apply for citizenship.  In some instances people wait more than 19 years to get a visa to enter the US legally.  It's not like you just get on a plane and fly to the US and walk into the immigration office and pay $700 to become a citizen.  ;-)
If you have no connection in the US, it is very difficult to get a permanent visa to come here, which is the first step.

If I'm just a joe schmoe from mexico who decides I want to become a citizen there is no possible way I can be a citizen in 6 months with the current system.  Impossible!

You hit the nail on the head for work visa's.  "if the employer is willing to sponsor an employee".  in the early 2000's I sponsored several work visa's for employees and it cost my business over $10,000 for each individual and several weeks of bureaucracy.  I do not know of anyone who is willing to fork over the kind of money it takes to sponsor a work visa for an hourly job.  Hence, high end white color work.  Even on the cheap end I've read that it's around $3000, which is still a lot more than any farmer is going to pay to legally bring in a laborer on a work visa.

So, I respectfully disagree that I posted anything false.




here is the biggest problem with your post ... you have a friend and you heard, plus you copied something off a website. That doesn't mean you know anything about the system and how it works, so throwing out statements like you have to have money and connections is irresponsible when you know nothing more than what one friend told you, what you read on a website, and you once heard. reality - your friend came in on a student visa, but here intent was to find a way to stay. do you not see why the government has a problem with that? because she came in as a student she is entitled to now get citizenship? if that becomes the law, we are suddenly going to need thousands of more universities as people will find a way to become a student in the U.S. if it means you are entitled to citizenship. clearly you didn't look up anything about the congressionally mandated denaturalization program, otherwise you wouldn't now claim that it needs to be easy. when it was easy, they naturalized thousands of violent felons - not to mention the 10s of thousands more who just have silly convictions like cocaine trafficking, child trafficking, repeat DUIs, wife and child battery convictions, burglaries, illegal fire arm possessions, multiple property theft convictions, etc. -- but gee, sounds like you now think it should be easy, because well, you never heard anyone say it was easy .... of course, the only ones you have ever talked to are those like your friend the waitress. did you talk to the woman from Romania who got married to a U.S. citizen, and 2 years and one week later had her status? how about her mother who the wife then turned around and petitioned for, who then had her status in 8 months? how about the thousands of Eritreans who make there way here and most every one is granted asylum because once you make U.S. shores, being sent back would mean torture by the ruling government, or the Russian who married the U.S. student studying in England? or the Cuban who can't go back for the same reason - Cuba wont' take them back, or the thousands of women from developing nations who marry the Mormon missionaries or service men, then after 2 years and a day have status? or the business man who has money to invest in the U.S.? or that Albanian youth working at the butcher shop in New York? my point is, just because you never heard it, doesn't mean you know immigration law.

you do realize, the diversity program is just that - a diversity program? = there are hundreds of other ways to get status in the U.S. also, how much diversity is there if you say, ok, 8 million Mexicans want in and only 200 Albanians, so come on in all of you. plus the 2 million from china and the Philippines. one little used program in the grand scale of immigration avenues is either taking the one thing some "reporter" published in a bid to bolster the truth you know rather than wanting to hear reality, or you fail to realize the complexity of the system and the many, many avenues to immigration.

your friend spent thousands and thousands of dollars because she is getting one useless degree after another to stay. and just what is your position now on "connections" your first post indicated you somehow knew you had to have political or high money connections to get status. now you are changing that to me you need connections in the family sense? yes, marrying a USC makes the path easier. if you, oh, take care of Hillary Clinton's mother who has Alzheimer's and let's say, she is getting nominated for sec of state, then yes, suddenly Hillary's illegal help gets fast tracked to citizenship, but the Clinton connection is one in 13 million, a whole lot of people get status without connections. have a legitimate asylum claim, have money to invest, have skills, have a baby in the U.S. and the kid is automatically a USC, go to school, to a summer jobs program like the big summer tourist attractions, etc. my brother's company hires people from other countries to drive harvest crew -- that is as far from white collar you can get. Disney is not hiring its foreign workers for white collar jobs, nor is wall drug, Wisconsin dells, or six flags. when their jobs end, yet, they have to go home, or find someone to marry while they are here.

in terms of cost, it is a matter of public record - go to USCIS.GOV and it will tell you how much it costs - $695 for naturalization, FREE to apply for asylum. FREE. there are plenty of people who navigate the system without an attorney. if you hire an attorney, some are a lot more expensive than others, and higher price doesn't mean better quality. some attys will promise the universe but deliver nothing, some do a great job for a fair price. if you want someone to do the process for you, then you have to expect to pay for the service - not get it free, or would you have no money to feed their children because they shouldn't get any services but yet they should get free services to get status?


now, you were some what correct in stating some people have waited more than a decade (not 19 years, but 14 is accurate). those are almost all people from Mexico because millions of Mexican want to come, but only thousands from other countries. again, this is just one of MANY ways to get status in the US, and this program, almost always the case that a child eventually reached 21, then petitioned for their parent. if it's the other round, parent gets status first, very easy to get their minor children status, OR adult children who are not married. adult married children have a harder time because where do you draw the line? adult children, with their spouse, then the spouse brings his entire family, and so on and so on. you have to draw the line somewhere.

that said, I find it disgusting that you let these people into the country with the promise of status .. some day, but because they followed the rules, they live in poverty while their 15 million illegal comrades live far better because they do qualify for all kinds of services so any money they make under the table is disposable income.

immigration is extremely complicated, so your nut shell statements are false, because they are based on pretty much zero knowledge of the system, learned from one friend, rumor and a newspaper article that touches on ONE aspect of immigration. btw - the joke of a 'test' you can find on google of the citizenship test is a complication of the hardest question found on each test. the test is NOT that hard, and you don't have to get a perfect score, but you should know who is the president, the vice president, the basics about our system of governance, how any stars and stripes, how many states, etc. also, are you aware there are all kinds of waivers from even taking the test? you get that without any "connections" you just need to provide the documentation. also, are you award that even the more expensive applications - like naturalization, allow for a fee waiver? you just need to fill out the paperwork regarding your assets and expenses. I knew a guy who owned a house on Chicago's gold coast out right. he was granted a fee waiver because while he had no mortgage, he had lost his job but wanted to stay. guess what, no connections, no big outlay of cash.

I could tell numerous stories from every perspective - like the woman whose mother was dying of brain cancer and asked in tears, could the process please be sped up so her mother had her last wish before she died. two weeks! it was done in two weeks. she had no connections. or the family who had drug arrests, but their US born child had a rare tumor and the parents told the immigration judge, 'we were stupid, we got involved with the wrong crowd, our daughter's condition has changed us -- IJ gave them both status.

it's not all heartless, some programs suck, political connections help people here and there, but head on down to the NY CIS office once a month, or any naturalization center in any large city any where in the country every single month at witness the hundreds at each location that are naturalized every single ceremony. ..and that's not including those who are getting the thousands of visas issued every month - TPS, BCC, SEVIS, VAWA, U-visa, S-visa, green cards, etc. etc.

bottom line - it is incorrect to say that you need connections, decades of time and vast amounts of money to get status. some people the only chance they have is a connection, but the vast majority have zero connections in the context of the meaning of the word you initially posted. there is no reason to make it "easier" -- it is already a lot more easy than your one article about one program represents.

finally - think about these two things . richest man IN THE WORLD, the ENTIRE WORLD is Carlos Slim. where does he live? (although just like denaturalization, you probably won't bother to look it up because you know what you know, and you won't let truth get in the way), and second, 15 years ago, Hispanics came here in waves then already, to work and send money home. do they send money home to the kids now? nope, they get here first, then tell their kids to come join them. these aren't orphans at the border, these are kids who have been separated from their parents who have found work in the US - and are coming here because it makes sense - I work more to send money home to care for you or I have you come here, then I don't have to take care of you any more as the US govt will take care of that, and I get to keep the money I used to send home to also live the American dream.

I served in peace corps in a third world country, I don't blame them for coming and it takes a lot more gumption than most any of us have, but again, don't over simplified and pretend you know how the whole process works based on your one friend and something you heard one time.


2014-07-17 12:19 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

My Grandfather made a fort out of the dead bodies of his friends on the beach at Tarawa in WWII.  He survived that landing, one of only two in his Marine Corps platoon to do so, to come home and raise 7 children and 48 grandchildren and great-grandchildren.  He was fighting for a country that allowed his grandfather to come here to escape starvation in Ireland.  His wife, my grandmother, was here because her parents escaped Yugoslavia, and certain death, under Marshall Tito. It's a great American story.

I am proud to be their first grandchild.  I am nothing but a living legacy to the opportunity my ancestors had to come to my country and make a better life for themselves.

I don't care about the politics, or some misplaced sense of nationalism.  This is America.  This is a place that is made up of generations of people like my grandparents and great-grandparents.  We have NO right to deny the same opportunity to anyone who comes here to better themselves.  That's what freedom means and that's what we have always stood for.

I would fight over it and for it...the same as my Grandpa did. 

Our borders should be open to all who seek a better life, and we should welcome them with a process that makes it easy for them to become Americans if that's what they desire.  

 



Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-17 12:23 AM
2014-07-17 3:56 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
Originally posted by Left Brain

My Grandfather made a fort out of the dead bodies of his friends on the beach at Tarawa in WWII.  He survived that landing, one of only two in his Marine Corps platoon to do so, to come home and raise 7 children and 48 grandchildren and great-grandchildren.  He was fighting for a country that allowed his grandfather to come here to escape starvation in Ireland.  His wife, my grandmother, was here because her parents escaped Yugoslavia, and certain death, under Marshall Tito. It's a great American story.

I am proud to be their first grandchild.  I am nothing but a living legacy to the opportunity my ancestors had to come to my country and make a better life for themselves.

I don't care about the politics, or some misplaced sense of nationalism.  This is America.  This is a place that is made up of generations of people like my grandparents and great-grandparents.  We have NO right to deny the same opportunity to anyone who comes here to better themselves.  That's what freedom means and that's what we have always stood for.

I would fight over it and for it...the same as my Grandpa did. 

Our borders should be open to all who seek a better life, and we should welcome them with a process that makes it easy for them to become Americans if that's what they desire.  

 




nicely put. Your country and where i live is founded on immigrants. Here they were mainly criminals but that's another story. We have stringent processes in place but asylum seekers are welcomed through the appropriate channels. Whether i agree with our current policy is another matter, but i'm an immigrant and can't imagine living anywhere else.
2014-07-17 11:31 AM
in reply to: sheesleeva

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Originally posted by sheesleeva
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by sheesleeva my only input is this: "The current process is a joke and it's virtually impossible to become a citizen for anyone without a lot of time/money/connections" this is FALSE. certainly having connections gets you on the super fast train, but the vast majority of those gaining citizenship have ZERO connections - unless you have a different definition of "connections." and depending on your definition of "a lot of money," this too is wrong. The fees for the application, including fingerprints and background checks, are just under $700. in terms of time, if you sent in all the correct paperwork, don't have a criminal record, there isn't something suspicious, and you are qualified, it can happen in less than six months ...yes, without connections or "a lot" of money. "We kind of do this with work Visa's but it's very expensive with a lot of loopholes, so it's primarily used for high end white collar jobs" again, FALSE. I have seen people get a work visa for working in a butcher shop, and grocery store, and a dairy farm milker. Is that high end white collar? are nurses high end white collar? I would like a definition of high end white collar if you are going to claim it's primarily used for high end white collar. the process is actually quite lenient if an employer is willing to sponsor an employee it is a mess, but don't post false information. as an aside, have a look at the denaturalization program and why it came about. you cannot flood CIS with 13 million naturalization applications and expect applications to be approved in a month, unless you really don't care about their criminal history.

I was fortunate enough to be born in the US so I didn't have to go through the process, but I've never seen anyone who has said it was easy or cheap.  I have a friend of mine whose actually a waitress at a restaurant who has been trying to get citizenship for over 10 years.  She's been living here legally on a student visa, but is running out of degree's to get and has spent many thousands of dollars on the process and has no end in sight.
Path to U.S. Citizenship Costly, Tedious

Immigration Reform: How Hard Is It To Become A US Citizen?

More 12.5 million individuals last year applied for a visa under the Diversity Immigrant Visa program, which offers residents of select countries a chance at winning one of 55,000 available permanent resident cards. Even though most applicants have less than 0.01 percent chance of winning this lottery, it is an easier path to citizenship than most others.

The $700 you mention is just for the application fee at the very end of the journey, but there is a whole lot more to it than that because you have to get here first.  Once you're in the US legally for 5 years, then you can apply for citizenship.  In some instances people wait more than 19 years to get a visa to enter the US legally.  It's not like you just get on a plane and fly to the US and walk into the immigration office and pay $700 to become a citizen.  ;-)
If you have no connection in the US, it is very difficult to get a permanent visa to come here, which is the first step.

If I'm just a joe schmoe from mexico who decides I want to become a citizen there is no possible way I can be a citizen in 6 months with the current system.  Impossible!

You hit the nail on the head for work visa's.  "if the employer is willing to sponsor an employee".  in the early 2000's I sponsored several work visa's for employees and it cost my business over $10,000 for each individual and several weeks of bureaucracy.  I do not know of anyone who is willing to fork over the kind of money it takes to sponsor a work visa for an hourly job.  Hence, high end white color work.  Even on the cheap end I've read that it's around $3000, which is still a lot more than any farmer is going to pay to legally bring in a laborer on a work visa.

So, I respectfully disagree that I posted anything false.

here is the biggest problem with your post ... you have a friend and you heard, plus you copied something off a website. That doesn't mean you know anything about the system and how it works, so throwing out statements like you have to have money and connections is irresponsible when you know nothing more than what one friend told you, what you read on a website, and you once heard. reality - your friend came in on a student visa, but here intent was to find a way to stay. do you not see why the government has a problem with that? because she came in as a student she is entitled to now get citizenship? if that becomes the law, we are suddenly going to need thousands of more universities as people will find a way to become a student in the U.S. if it means you are entitled to citizenship. clearly you didn't look up anything about the congressionally mandated denaturalization program, otherwise you wouldn't now claim that it needs to be easy. when it was easy, they naturalized thousands of violent felons - not to mention the 10s of thousands more who just have silly convictions like cocaine trafficking, child trafficking, repeat DUIs, wife and child battery convictions, burglaries, illegal fire arm possessions, multiple property theft convictions, etc. -- but gee, sounds like you now think it should be easy, because well, you never heard anyone say it was easy .... of course, the only ones you have ever talked to are those like your friend the waitress. did you talk to the woman from Romania who got married to a U.S. citizen, and 2 years and one week later had her status? how about her mother who the wife then turned around and petitioned for, who then had her status in 8 months? how about the thousands of Eritreans who make there way here and most every one is granted asylum because once you make U.S. shores, being sent back would mean torture by the ruling government, or the Russian who married the U.S. student studying in England? or the Cuban who can't go back for the same reason - Cuba wont' take them back, or the thousands of women from developing nations who marry the Mormon missionaries or service men, then after 2 years and a day have status? or the business man who has money to invest in the U.S.? or that Albanian youth working at the butcher shop in New York? my point is, just because you never heard it, doesn't mean you know immigration law. you do realize, the diversity program is just that - a diversity program? = there are hundreds of other ways to get status in the U.S. also, how much diversity is there if you say, ok, 8 million Mexicans want in and only 200 Albanians, so come on in all of you. plus the 2 million from china and the Philippines. one little used program in the grand scale of immigration avenues is either taking the one thing some "reporter" published in a bid to bolster the truth you know rather than wanting to hear reality, or you fail to realize the complexity of the system and the many, many avenues to immigration. your friend spent thousands and thousands of dollars because she is getting one useless degree after another to stay. and just what is your position now on "connections" your first post indicated you somehow knew you had to have political or high money connections to get status. now you are changing that to me you need connections in the family sense? yes, marrying a USC makes the path easier. if you, oh, take care of Hillary Clinton's mother who has Alzheimer's and let's say, she is getting nominated for sec of state, then yes, suddenly Hillary's illegal help gets fast tracked to citizenship, but the Clinton connection is one in 13 million, a whole lot of people get status without connections. have a legitimate asylum claim, have money to invest, have skills, have a baby in the U.S. and the kid is automatically a USC, go to school, to a summer jobs program like the big summer tourist attractions, etc. my brother's company hires people from other countries to drive harvest crew -- that is as far from white collar you can get. Disney is not hiring its foreign workers for white collar jobs, nor is wall drug, Wisconsin dells, or six flags. when their jobs end, yet, they have to go home, or find someone to marry while they are here. in terms of cost, it is a matter of public record - go to USCIS.GOV and it will tell you how much it costs - $695 for naturalization, FREE to apply for asylum. FREE. there are plenty of people who navigate the system without an attorney. if you hire an attorney, some are a lot more expensive than others, and higher price doesn't mean better quality. some attys will promise the universe but deliver nothing, some do a great job for a fair price. if you want someone to do the process for you, then you have to expect to pay for the service - not get it free, or would you have no money to feed their children because they shouldn't get any services but yet they should get free services to get status? now, you were some what correct in stating some people have waited more than a decade (not 19 years, but 14 is accurate). those are almost all people from Mexico because millions of Mexican want to come, but only thousands from other countries. again, this is just one of MANY ways to get status in the US, and this program, almost always the case that a child eventually reached 21, then petitioned for their parent. if it's the other round, parent gets status first, very easy to get their minor children status, OR adult children who are not married. adult married children have a harder time because where do you draw the line? adult children, with their spouse, then the spouse brings his entire family, and so on and so on. you have to draw the line somewhere. that said, I find it disgusting that you let these people into the country with the promise of status .. some day, but because they followed the rules, they live in poverty while their 15 million illegal comrades live far better because they do qualify for all kinds of services so any money they make under the table is disposable income. immigration is extremely complicated, so your nut shell statements are false, because they are based on pretty much zero knowledge of the system, learned from one friend, rumor and a newspaper article that touches on ONE aspect of immigration. btw - the joke of a 'test' you can find on google of the citizenship test is a complication of the hardest question found on each test. the test is NOT that hard, and you don't have to get a perfect score, but you should know who is the president, the vice president, the basics about our system of governance, how any stars and stripes, how many states, etc. also, are you aware there are all kinds of waivers from even taking the test? you get that without any "connections" you just need to provide the documentation. also, are you award that even the more expensive applications - like naturalization, allow for a fee waiver? you just need to fill out the paperwork regarding your assets and expenses. I knew a guy who owned a house on Chicago's gold coast out right. he was granted a fee waiver because while he had no mortgage, he had lost his job but wanted to stay. guess what, no connections, no big outlay of cash. I could tell numerous stories from every perspective - like the woman whose mother was dying of brain cancer and asked in tears, could the process please be sped up so her mother had her last wish before she died. two weeks! it was done in two weeks. she had no connections. or the family who had drug arrests, but their US born child had a rare tumor and the parents told the immigration judge, 'we were stupid, we got involved with the wrong crowd, our daughter's condition has changed us -- IJ gave them both status. it's not all heartless, some programs suck, political connections help people here and there, but head on down to the NY CIS office once a month, or any naturalization center in any large city any where in the country every single month at witness the hundreds at each location that are naturalized every single ceremony. ..and that's not including those who are getting the thousands of visas issued every month - TPS, BCC, SEVIS, VAWA, U-visa, S-visa, green cards, etc. etc. bottom line - it is incorrect to say that you need connections, decades of time and vast amounts of money to get status. some people the only chance they have is a connection, but the vast majority have zero connections in the context of the meaning of the word you initially posted. there is no reason to make it "easier" -- it is already a lot more easy than your one article about one program represents. finally - think about these two things . richest man IN THE WORLD, the ENTIRE WORLD is Carlos Slim. where does he live? (although just like denaturalization, you probably won't bother to look it up because you know what you know, and you won't let truth get in the way), and second, 15 years ago, Hispanics came here in waves then already, to work and send money home. do they send money home to the kids now? nope, they get here first, then tell their kids to come join them. these aren't orphans at the border, these are kids who have been separated from their parents who have found work in the US - and are coming here because it makes sense - I work more to send money home to care for you or I have you come here, then I don't have to take care of you any more as the US govt will take care of that, and I get to keep the money I used to send home to also live the American dream. I served in peace corps in a third world country, I don't blame them for coming and it takes a lot more gumption than most any of us have, but again, don't over simplified and pretend you know how the whole process works based on your one friend and something you heard one time.

Wow, that's quite a wall of text.

The sad part is I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to argue.  Do you support the existing system and claim that nothing should change, or are you saying we should let everyone in and make them all citizens.  Then again, I think you may be arguing that it's so easy for everyone to get citizenship that they just have to pay $700 and it's done in just a few months.  like I said, I'm very confused but I have to admit you have a lot of passion on this topic.  ;-)

 

2014-07-17 12:11 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
all I know it is my girl came here in 1996. Took her 3 months to get a visa and 1 year to become a citizen. She came here as a refuge during the Bosian war.

As for immigration we had discrimination of our own people when you had excess people coming in and potentially destroying the job market.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article...
2014-11-21 10:11 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

So what do you guys think about this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2843174/We-not-going-deport-Obama-announces-amnesty-millions-anchor-baby-parents-illegal-immigrant-children-long-ve-five-years.html

I'm genuinely curious about the constitutional authority of the President to take an action like this.  I'm also curious if there will be any longstanding political baggage that will come of this in the 2016 election.

My wife was absolutely livid about the announcement, but it was merely because the speech was aired during Grey's Anatomy.  eek, big political mistake with the ladies.  hehe



2014-11-21 10:54 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

I like it!  I think we should welcome all people who want to make a better life for themselves....and if it's citizenship they want, we should make it as easy as we can for them to achieve.

I don't necessarily agree with the executive order that appears to circumvent the standing laws......but somebody had to have some grit on the issue, might as well be the President.  I wish Bush had done the same.

2014-11-21 12:30 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
I agreed with one thing the President said last night. "This is not how democracy works."
2014-11-21 3:21 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
On the substance & human side of the issue, I totally agree with LB.

As for the procedural aspect, I want immigration dealt with by Congress instead of with an EO. The good thing is the issue can still be handled in that manner as Congressional action would be able to supersede the EO. That's why most of the belly-aching coming from Capitol Hill is kind of ridiculous...they still have the power to legislate immigration policy...if they really want to. Sadly, now that Obama has done the dirty work, I doubt either party is eager to fight this out in Congress any further.

The EO once again allows things to get done without Congress having a vote go on their record on a divisive issue. Republicans will be more than happy to continue slinging arrows at the "dictator president." Both Dems & Reps are shielded from future campaign attack ads...the left can't say they voted against Latinos & the right can't say they voted for any leniency for illegals. Just like not debating & voting on the ISIS war, I fear both sides of the aisle will now be more than happy to let it go in exchange for not having to defend a vote in future elections.

On the bright side, this may free up Congress to act on the border security aspect of the issue as they will no longer get hung up debating/voting on how to deal with the people who are already in the country.

2014-11-21 3:22 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Originally posted by Left Brain

I like it!  I think we should welcome all people who want to make a better life for themselves....and if it's citizenship they want, we should make it as easy as we can for them to achieve.

I don't necessarily agree with the executive order that appears to circumvent the standing laws......but somebody had to have some grit on the issue, might as well be the President.  I wish Bush had done the same.

One of my biggest criticisms of President Bush is that he failed to push hard enough for comprehensive immigration reform (President Obama squandered an opportunity as well when his party controlled Congress).  While President Obama's actions fall in line with what I believe is the right direction regarding immigration reform (setting aside any constitutional issues), they also make the much needed legislative immigration reform much less likely.  If the Republicans were smart, they would continue to work on immigration reform legislation and present something for the President's signature next year.  Unfortunately, they will take the bait and direct all of their energy towards fighting the President.    

2014-11-21 3:24 PM
in reply to: Boilermaker

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Originally posted by Boilermaker On the substance & human side of the issue, I totally agree with LB. As for the procedural aspect, I want immigration dealt with by Congress instead of with an EO. The good thing is the issue can still be handled in that manner as Congressional action would be able to supersede the EO. That's why most of the belly-aching coming from Capitol Hill is kind of ridiculous...they still have the power to legislate immigration policy...if they really want to. Sadly, now that Obama has done the dirty work, I doubt either party is eager to fight this out in Congress any further. The EO once again allows things to get done without Congress having a vote go on their record on a divisive issue. Republicans will be more than happy to continue slinging arrows at the "dictator president." Both Dems & Reps are shielded from future campaign attack ads...the left can't say they voted against Latinos & the right can't say they voted for any leniency for illegals. Just like not debating & voting on the ISIS war, I fear both sides of the aisle will now be more than happy to let it go in exchange for not having to defend a vote in future elections. On the bright side, this may free up Congress to act on the border security aspect of the issue as they will no longer get hung up debating/voting on how to deal with the people who are already in the country.

I was typing when you posted.  Well said.



2014-11-22 12:22 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Originally posted by Left Brain

My Grandfather made a fort out of the dead bodies of his friends on the beach at Tarawa in WWII.  He survived that landing, one of only two in his Marine Corps platoon to do so, to come home and raise 7 children and 48 grandchildren and great-grandchildren.  He was fighting for a country that allowed his grandfather to come here to escape starvation in Ireland.  His wife, my grandmother, was here because her parents escaped Yugoslavia, and certain death, under Marshall Tito. It's a great American story.

I am proud to be their first grandchild.  I am nothing but a living legacy to the opportunity my ancestors had to come to my country and make a better life for themselves.

I don't care about the politics, or some misplaced sense of nationalism.  This is America.  This is a place that is made up of generations of people like my grandparents and great-grandparents.  We have NO right to deny the same opportunity to anyone who comes here to better themselves.  That's what freedom means and that's what we have always stood for.

I would fight over it and for it...the same as my Grandpa did. 

Our borders should be open to all who seek a better life, and we should welcome them with a process that makes it easy for them to become Americans if that's what they desire.   

Wonderfully said, LB.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

2014-11-24 9:34 AM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Left Brain

My Grandfather made a fort out of the dead bodies of his friends on the beach at Tarawa in WWII.  He survived that landing, one of only two in his Marine Corps platoon to do so, to come home and raise 7 children and 48 grandchildren and great-grandchildren.  He was fighting for a country that allowed his grandfather to come here to escape starvation in Ireland.  His wife, my grandmother, was here because her parents escaped Yugoslavia, and certain death, under Marshall Tito. It's a great American story.

I am proud to be their first grandchild.  I am nothing but a living legacy to the opportunity my ancestors had to come to my country and make a better life for themselves.

I don't care about the politics, or some misplaced sense of nationalism.  This is America.  This is a place that is made up of generations of people like my grandparents and great-grandparents.  We have NO right to deny the same opportunity to anyone who comes here to better themselves.  That's what freedom means and that's what we have always stood for.

I would fight over it and for it...the same as my Grandpa did. 

Our borders should be open to all who seek a better life, and we should welcome them with a process that makes it easy for them to become Americans if that's what they desire.   

Wonderfully said, LB.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

When I lived in Chula Vista, CA (south of San Diego) in the mid 90's I used to be pretty against "illegals" until one morning I heard a bunch of helicopters and sirens whaling through the air as the Border Patrol was chasing down a bunch of "illegals" in the field across from our house.  I was startled when I looked on the back patio to see a husband, wife, and their three beautiful kids huddled in fear.  At first I was scared myself, but it wasn't a matter of seconds that human nature kicked in I opened the door and invited them in with the best Spanish I could remember.
I made them a nice breakfast and really wanted to help them more, but knew I was likely already crossing legal boundaries.  With full bellies and a few toys for the little ones, I sent them on their way and have no idea what ever happened to them.  However, I had a whole new appreciation for these immigrants and what they really wanted.  They wanted the same thing I did, they wanted a better life for their kids and there's no better place than America to give them that.  If I were born south of the border, I know that the rolls would have easily been reversed and I'd stop at nothing to get my family to America.

I do tend to look at the economical side of things as well, which is why I gravitate towards us creating a guest worker program that enables anyone who wants to work here a method to do so legally.  This program should allow for people to bring their families as well because it's heartless to force families to split up.
I know entitlements are a sticky subject in this debate, but knowing the Hispanic people I know I'd tend to say they're a lot harder working than a lot of American kids I know.  So, overall I would say there would be a lot more contribution to the economy and that problem would fix itself.  Without the ability to work "legally" people are forced to only use free services, because they can't get a legitimate job with benefits, or even pay taxes in many cases today.

2014-11-24 10:40 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Just saw the SNL remake of the "Bill on Capital Hill" song.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUDSeb2zHQ0

 

2014-11-24 11:30 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
Problem with the guest working program extended from this.

"Those Who Entered Legitimately Account for 40% of the 11 Million Total, Complicating Attempts to Craft New Legislation"

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412788732391630457840496010...

Issue is not always people risking there lives to come here but people who do not leave.





2014-11-24 11:44 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Originally posted by chirunner134 Problem with the guest working program extended from this. "Those Who Entered Legitimately Account for 40% of the 11 Million Total, Complicating Attempts to Craft New Legislation" http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412788732391630457840496010... Issue is not always people risking there lives to come here but people who do not leave.

Why should they have to?



2014-11-24 11:46 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134 Problem with the guest working program extended from this. "Those Who Entered Legitimately Account for 40% of the 11 Million Total, Complicating Attempts to Craft New Legislation" http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412788732391630457840496010... Issue is not always people risking there lives to come here but people who do not leave.

Why should they have to?




Because if you do not your breaking the law.
2014-11-24 12:24 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134 Problem with the guest working program extended from this. "Those Who Entered Legitimately Account for 40% of the 11 Million Total, Complicating Attempts to Craft New Legislation" http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412788732391630457840496010... Issue is not always people risking there lives to come here but people who do not leave.

Why should they have to?




Why have a country with boarders then?

2014-11-24 12:39 PM
in reply to: Jackemy1

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134 Problem with the guest working program extended from this. "Those Who Entered Legitimately Account for 40% of the 11 Million Total, Complicating Attempts to Craft New Legislation" http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412788732391630457840496010... Issue is not always people risking there lives to come here but people who do not leave.

Why should they have to?

Why have a country with boarders then?

For protection.  Of course we should work to keep people who want to harm our country out......but that just doesn't include those wishing to make a better life for themselves.....it never has. 

If you want more compliance then make it EASIER to become a citizen.....remove the barriers to citizenship, not the barriers on our borders.

2014-11-24 1:24 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134 Problem with the guest working program extended from this. "Those Who Entered Legitimately Account for 40% of the 11 Million Total, Complicating Attempts to Craft New Legislation" http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412788732391630457840496010... Issue is not always people risking there lives to come here but people who do not leave.

Why should they have to?

Why have a country with boarders then?

For protection.  Of course we should work to keep people who want to harm our country out......but that just doesn't include those wishing to make a better life for themselves.....it never has. 

If you want more compliance then make it EASIER to become a citizen.....remove the barriers to citizenship, not the barriers on our borders.




I think about a million people get green cards every year. How many more green cards should we give out a given year? 2 million, 10 million.....as many as there are who want to make a better life for themselves? What's a good number?

The other question I have is what immigration law is actually broken? Is there a specific one or a list of them that we can all point to and say it needs to be changed? What law should get changed? I am asking because I simple don't know the answer. It seems to me that the mess has been created by the Executive Branch itself (and not just Obama) not enforcing the law and not any failure of the law.


2014-11-24 3:06 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134 Problem with the guest working program extended from this. "Those Who Entered Legitimately Account for 40% of the 11 Million Total, Complicating Attempts to Craft New Legislation" http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412788732391630457840496010... Issue is not always people risking there lives to come here but people who do not leave.

Why should they have to?

Why have a country with boarders then?

For protection.  Of course we should work to keep people who want to harm our country out......but that just doesn't include those wishing to make a better life for themselves.....it never has. 

If you want more compliance then make it EASIER to become a citizen.....remove the barriers to citizenship, not the barriers on our borders.

Hopefully their better life doesn't involve 72 virgins. ;-)

 



2014-11-26 8:16 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Immigration mess

I thought this was an interesting loophole.  I don't feel there was anything intentional about this by the administration, but the net effect is that it would appear a company that is struggling with the ACA mandates could exploit this loophole by not hiring US citizens.  hmm

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/25/obama-amnesty-obamacare-clash-businesses-have-3000/

 

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