Swimming: arms or legs (Page 8)
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2014-07-18 3:29 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain Not, but he's fast enough to be.....BTW, check out who the fast kid was at Richmond this year.....yep.....a Frenchie.....even better, a French Canadian :-) I would be interested in TJ's comments on the breaststroke kicking as I personally struggle with week adductors and breakstroke kicking certainly stretches them out. Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by Fred D I am curious to see what TJ would suggest as a 2500 kick set, largely because I have no idea how I would approach that? I will assume it's not: 25x100 kick...
I'd personally throw in a good bit of breast kick as that strengthens the supporting bike/run muscles, but that's another thread. You are OBVIOUSLY not French.
With biking and running being so specific, straight forward and straight back movements, as well as specific muscles, it sets you up for lots of imbalance and weakness. I get periformis and psoas (sp?) issues that lead to IT band tightness. I also get some issues with the supporting muscles around the knee that grow weary towards the end of very long rides. When I have time I do weights, but since I'm in the pool, it's easy to do some breast kicking as it works the bootie, adductors, abductors, and some of the smaller muscles around the knee. so it gives some good balance. Challenge for some though is that if you do it wrong you can tweak or pull muscles. so there's that. This is what I was thinking the whole time I'm reading the posts by LB and DMiller about why a larger volume of kicking is important. Biking and running are pretty much 100% in the sagittal plane, which tends to cause the imbalances you mention, but swimming has a considerable amount of movement in the transverse plane. Even a straight forward flutter kick is going to be an isometric transverse core exercise, increasing strength and endurance in many of the core muscles in ways that biking, running, traditional core exercises such as planks, and big strength moves such as squats and dead lifts fail to do. My gut feeling is that for someone who has trained at the volumes and intensities that you have, TJ, this is going to be more crucial for maintaining health than it would be for someone training at lower volumes and intensities, but it could be another angle to take at imbalances in anyone rather than using dry land strength training.
What? I said strength training will make you faster at kick sets.
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2014-07-18 3:38 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain Not, but he's fast enough to be.....BTW, check out who the fast kid was at Richmond this year.....yep.....a Frenchie.....even better, a French Canadian :-) I would be interested in TJ's comments on the breaststroke kicking as I personally struggle with week adductors and breakstroke kicking certainly stretches them out. Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by Fred D I am curious to see what TJ would suggest as a 2500 kick set, largely because I have no idea how I would approach that? I will assume it's not: 25x100 kick...
I'd personally throw in a good bit of breast kick as that strengthens the supporting bike/run muscles, but that's another thread. You are OBVIOUSLY not French.
With biking and running being so specific, straight forward and straight back movements, as well as specific muscles, it sets you up for lots of imbalance and weakness. I get periformis and psoas (sp?) issues that lead to IT band tightness. I also get some issues with the supporting muscles around the knee that grow weary towards the end of very long rides. When I have time I do weights, but since I'm in the pool, it's easy to do some breast kicking as it works the bootie, adductors, abductors, and some of the smaller muscles around the knee. so it gives some good balance. Challenge for some though is that if you do it wrong you can tweak or pull muscles. so there's that. This is what I was thinking the whole time I'm reading the posts by LB and DMiller about why a larger volume of kicking is important. Biking and running are pretty much 100% in the sagittal plane, which tends to cause the imbalances you mention, but swimming has a considerable amount of movement in the transverse plane. Even a straight forward flutter kick is going to be an isometric transverse core exercise, increasing strength and endurance in many of the core muscles in ways that biking, running, traditional core exercises such as planks, and big strength moves such as squats and dead lifts fail to do. My gut feeling is that for someone who has trained at the volumes and intensities that you have, TJ, this is going to be more crucial for maintaining health than it would be for someone training at lower volumes and intensities, but it could be another angle to take at imbalances in anyone rather than using dry land strength training.
What? I said strength training will make you faster at kick sets.
That's what I thought. |
2014-07-18 5:24 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain Not, but he's fast enough to be.....BTW, check out who the fast kid was at Richmond this year.....yep.....a Frenchie.....even better, a French Canadian :-) I would be interested in TJ's comments on the breaststroke kicking as I personally struggle with week adductors and breakstroke kicking certainly stretches them out. Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by Fred D I am curious to see what TJ would suggest as a 2500 kick set, largely because I have no idea how I would approach that? I will assume it's not: 25x100 kick...
I'd personally throw in a good bit of breast kick as that strengthens the supporting bike/run muscles, but that's another thread. You are OBVIOUSLY not French.
With biking and running being so specific, straight forward and straight back movements, as well as specific muscles, it sets you up for lots of imbalance and weakness. I get periformis and psoas (sp?) issues that lead to IT band tightness. I also get some issues with the supporting muscles around the knee that grow weary towards the end of very long rides. When I have time I do weights, but since I'm in the pool, it's easy to do some breast kicking as it works the bootie, adductors, abductors, and some of the smaller muscles around the knee. so it gives some good balance. Challenge for some though is that if you do it wrong you can tweak or pull muscles. so there's that. This is what I was thinking the whole time I'm reading the posts by LB and DMiller about why a larger volume of kicking is important. Biking and running are pretty much 100% in the sagittal plane, which tends to cause the imbalances you mention, but swimming has a considerable amount of movement in the transverse plane. Even a straight forward flutter kick is going to be an isometric transverse core exercise, increasing strength and endurance in many of the core muscles in ways that biking, running, traditional core exercises such as planks, and big strength moves such as squats and dead lifts fail to do. My gut feeling is that for someone who has trained at the volumes and intensities that you have, TJ, this is going to be more crucial for maintaining health than it would be for someone training at lower volumes and intensities, but it could be another angle to take at imbalances in anyone rather than using dry land strength training.
What? I said strength training will make you faster at kick sets.
That's what I thought. What he said was "as triathletes we do too much forward backward of the legs" A little more strength in the side to side would help Get Jr on a healthy does of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-50GjySwew |
2014-07-18 5:31 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs Marc, I showed him that last year......it's probably as hard as a father and son can laugh together. But.....back to the topic and hand and the "forward/backward"......how many do dolphin kicks? Jr. has a crazy strong core, and hips.....and a staple of their workouts are underwater dolphin kicks for the length of the pool.....bunches of them. Helps with balance, breath control, etc......and geez, the core it builds is nuts. Probably not something a new swimmer can even work on, but if you've been at it for awhile, it's pretty awesome as a swim builder. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-18 5:32 PM |
2014-07-18 8:33 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain Not, but he's fast enough to be.....BTW, check out who the fast kid was at Richmond this year.....yep.....a Frenchie.....even better, a French Canadian :-) I would be interested in TJ's comments on the breaststroke kicking as I personally struggle with week adductors and breakstroke kicking certainly stretches them out. Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by Fred D I am curious to see what TJ would suggest as a 2500 kick set, largely because I have no idea how I would approach that? I will assume it's not: 25x100 kick...
I'd personally throw in a good bit of breast kick as that strengthens the supporting bike/run muscles, but that's another thread. You are OBVIOUSLY not French.
With biking and running being so specific, straight forward and straight back movements, as well as specific muscles, it sets you up for lots of imbalance and weakness. I get periformis and psoas (sp?) issues that lead to IT band tightness. I also get some issues with the supporting muscles around the knee that grow weary towards the end of very long rides. When I have time I do weights, but since I'm in the pool, it's easy to do some breast kicking as it works the bootie, adductors, abductors, and some of the smaller muscles around the knee. so it gives some good balance. Challenge for some though is that if you do it wrong you can tweak or pull muscles. so there's that. This is what I was thinking the whole time I'm reading the posts by LB and DMiller about why a larger volume of kicking is important. Biking and running are pretty much 100% in the sagittal plane, which tends to cause the imbalances you mention, but swimming has a considerable amount of movement in the transverse plane. Even a straight forward flutter kick is going to be an isometric transverse core exercise, increasing strength and endurance in many of the core muscles in ways that biking, running, traditional core exercises such as planks, and big strength moves such as squats and dead lifts fail to do. My gut feeling is that for someone who has trained at the volumes and intensities that you have, TJ, this is going to be more crucial for maintaining health than it would be for someone training at lower volumes and intensities, but it could be another angle to take at imbalances in anyone rather than using dry land strength training. ETA: I'm not making an argument for or against more kicking. Rather, I'm saying do everything with a purpose. Don't just train a certain way just because it worked for someone else, or because you read it some place.
sorry man, you lost me.so i need to kick breast to stay healthy but others don't need it? |
2014-07-20 9:21 AM in reply to: tjfry |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain Not, but he's fast enough to be.....BTW, check out who the fast kid was at Richmond this year.....yep.....a Frenchie.....even better, a French Canadian :-) I would be interested in TJ's comments on the breaststroke kicking as I personally struggle with week adductors and breakstroke kicking certainly stretches them out. Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by Fred D I am curious to see what TJ would suggest as a 2500 kick set, largely because I have no idea how I would approach that? I will assume it's not: 25x100 kick...
I'd personally throw in a good bit of breast kick as that strengthens the supporting bike/run muscles, but that's another thread. You are OBVIOUSLY not French.
With biking and running being so specific, straight forward and straight back movements, as well as specific muscles, it sets you up for lots of imbalance and weakness. I get periformis and psoas (sp?) issues that lead to IT band tightness. I also get some issues with the supporting muscles around the knee that grow weary towards the end of very long rides. When I have time I do weights, but since I'm in the pool, it's easy to do some breast kicking as it works the bootie, adductors, abductors, and some of the smaller muscles around the knee. so it gives some good balance. Challenge for some though is that if you do it wrong you can tweak or pull muscles. so there's that. This is what I was thinking the whole time I'm reading the posts by LB and DMiller about why a larger volume of kicking is important. Biking and running are pretty much 100% in the sagittal plane, which tends to cause the imbalances you mention, but swimming has a considerable amount of movement in the transverse plane. Even a straight forward flutter kick is going to be an isometric transverse core exercise, increasing strength and endurance in many of the core muscles in ways that biking, running, traditional core exercises such as planks, and big strength moves such as squats and dead lifts fail to do. My gut feeling is that for someone who has trained at the volumes and intensities that you have, TJ, this is going to be more crucial for maintaining health than it would be for someone training at lower volumes and intensities, but it could be another angle to take at imbalances in anyone rather than using dry land strength training. ETA: I'm not making an argument for or against more kicking. Rather, I'm saying do everything with a purpose. Don't just train a certain way just because it worked for someone else, or because you read it some place.
sorry man, you lost me.so i need to kick breast to stay healthy but others don't need it? Sorry, TJ...That post was a bit of thinking out loud. lol! Let's see if I can be a little more coherent... LB and DMiller both contend that more kicking will make a triathlete faster, but nothing we do exists in a vacuum, and most AG athletes have limited time available for training. Time-crunched AGers can frequently get a bigger bang for their training buck by training is ways that provide multiple benefits. Biking and running are pretty much 100% in the sagittal plane (front to back movements), which tends to cause imbalances such as ITBS. Imbalances are normally addressed through separate strength training sessions. Swimming has a considerable amount of movement in the transverse plane (rotational movements), and breast stroke kicking like you suggest, adds hip abduction and adduction movements (frontal plane / side to side movements), which can help address the imbalances caused from focusing almost exclusively on bike and run. Rather than finding time for strength training specifically to correct known imbalances, incorporating breast stroke kicking (or other types of drills depending on their specific needs) into their swim training sessions could be an alternative way to help correct imbalances rather than only using dry land strength training.
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