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Training hard with no results
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 2014-07-14 12:31 PM |
 439   nashville, Tennessee |  Subject: Training hard with no resultsDoes anybody have any advice? Been doing triathlons for about 4 years now and can't seem to get much faster. Two off seasons ago I worked really hard and did a lot of hard intervals on bike trainer throughout the winter. I was doing hard 5 minute intervals and monitoring my progress. Thought I was making significant gains but when I did the first race of the season I was slower than the year before. Very discouraging. I spent the last year training for an IM which I completed in May with decent results. I took a couple weeks off to recover and then started training hard for a sprint race that I did this past Saturday. I was pretty close to the same speed as the year before. Now I know training for an IM is different than training for a sprint, however, the coach that trained me for IM had me doing LOTS of hard speed work during the ironman training. So it wasn't like I was just running and biking long slow distance. I did a lot of big gear work and hard intervals on the bike and run. So I expected to be stronger in the sprint too but I was not. So after not getting results for the 2013 season, I decided to pay for a coach thinking that would help. Well after a year of training with him, I'm still not much better. I'm planning to take some time off now and just do some other forms of activity to stay in shape but get away from tris just to see if maybe I was overtraining. One more thing, I read somewhere that doing more than 2 or 3 HARD sessions per week might lead to overtraining. My coach had me doing about 4 hard sessions each week. Sometimes two in one day(bike and run). A lot of times they were back to back days. I have heard that it may not be good to do back to back hard days. Any advice? Thanks! |
| 2014-07-14 12:35 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results You'll get much better advice from others, but in my experience, I never hired a coach. I just kept training, and got faster through continued training. I barely did "hard" workouts, but was mostly doing a lot of miles at an easy pace. Four hard workouts, back to back days sounds like a lot. But regardless, you should still improve, it's strange that with all that work you didn't get any better? Were you rested and well hydrated for those races you did worse in? Was your bike in good shape? How did the weather compare from one year to the next? |
| 2014-07-14 12:47 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Champion 6962   Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results I would ask you to not look at how many hard workouts you have, but how many recovery days and 'easy' workouts you have. That will tell you more of the story vs hard workouts. |
| 2014-07-14 12:49 PM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Yeah I think I was adequately hydrated and the weather wasn't an issue. The only thing that wasn't ideal is that I only got about 2 hours of sleep the night before but I've always heard that the night before shouldn't have much impact and that its two nights before that you want to make sure you get good sleep. |
| 2014-07-14 12:57 PM in reply to: Marvarnett |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by Marvarnett I would ask you to not look at how many hard workouts you have, but how many recovery days and 'easy' workouts you have. That will tell you more of the story vs hard workouts. I would usually have one day off and maybe two easy days. |
| 2014-07-14 12:59 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Master 2802 Minnetonka, Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Need more info. What kinds of times are we talking for some standard distances for each sport? Maybe you are already really fast so getting fast is going to be really hard? What kind of background did you bring to triathlon? |
| 2014-07-14 1:04 PM in reply to: ejshowers |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Yeah I'm not at that point where it gets really hard to improve I wouldn't think. For a sprint race I'm usually around 22 mph and 6:45-6:50 runs. Swim is not great, usually middle of the pack swimmer. |
| 2014-07-14 1:16 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by mchadcota2 Yeah I'm not at that point where it gets really hard to improve I wouldn't think. For a sprint race I'm usually around 22 mph and 6:45-6:50 runs. Swim is not great, usually middle of the pack swimmer. Really? You think those are lousy times? I've been at this for 7 years, and I've just recently gotten close to 22 mph and still chasing sub 7 min runes. I realize there are going to be people who think that's slow, but it's not. You're at the high end already. |
| 2014-07-14 1:16 PM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results how is you gauging your improvement / decrease in fitness? If it's by comparing one year's race results to the next, you will drive yourself crazy and likely NOT learn anything useful. no logs makes helping tough. Edited by Leegoocrap 2014-07-14 1:17 PM |
| 2014-07-14 1:19 PM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
Expert 721 | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by mchadcota2 Yeah I'm not at that point where it gets really hard to improve I wouldn't think. For a sprint race I'm usually around 22 mph and 6:45-6:50 runs. Swim is not great, usually middle of the pack swimmer. Really? You think those are lousy times? I've been at this for 7 years, and I've just recently gotten close to 22 mph and still chasing sub 7 min runes. I realize there are going to be people who think that's slow, but it's not. You're at the high end already. Yup, definitely at the fast end for the run and bike, but it sounds like you have the most room for improvement in the swim, and that is the one sport you didn't mention in the initial email. How much are you swimming? Have you had coaching on technique? Do you swim with a Master's group? |
| 2014-07-14 1:24 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by mchadcota2 Yeah I'm not at that point where it gets really hard to improve I wouldn't think. For a sprint race I'm usually around 22 mph and 6:45-6:50 runs. Swim is not great, usually middle of the pack swimmer. How far do your paces fall off from sprint to oly? |
| 2014-07-14 1:29 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results I guess what frustrates me is seeing people who people who were slower than me a year ago make big improvements and are now much faster than me while I'm sitting still. |
| 2014-07-14 1:46 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results What's your age? |
| 2014-07-14 3:02 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results 36 |
| 2014-07-14 3:30 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 370 , North Carolina | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results What are you calling not improving much? Do you have splits from same distance triathlons? Not that I have any answers at all I am just curious. |
| 2014-07-14 3:33 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Extreme Veteran 933 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by mchadcota2 One more thing, I read somewhere that doing more than 2 or 3 HARD sessions per week might lead to overtraining. My coach had me doing about 4 hard sessions each week. Sometimes two in one day(bike and run). A lot of times they were back to back days. I have heard that it may not be good to do back to back hard days. Any advice? Thanks! You sound tired. I'll pick a number out of thin air and guess you're doing anywhere from 8-12 'sessions' a week, if 4 of them are hard, you're destroying yourself. That's a build week, and a brutal one, you don't do that every week. Conversely, it also isn't just about long slow distance...and of course there's balancing the disciplines you're working on...there's a lot to it. How's your swim? I never miss an opportunity to tell people how crucial swimming really is. the other consideration here of course is that you might have hit a ceiling. What are your splits like? At some point, the marginal gains are just very hard to come by. |
| 2014-07-14 4:14 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Just looked at this weeks training plan. Did a sprint race Saturday. Sunday was a 2 hour bike. (not hard) So today is day off. Tuesday- 1 hour bike with 10 x 0.5 mile Max hill climbs, easy pedal downhill. Swim 2400 yds (15 x 100) and drills. Wednesday-45 min easy run w/drills. Thurs-45 min swim(2200 yds). 1 hour bike (10 x 2 min hardest gear push,1 min easy). Friday- swim 2100 yds, Run- 1hour easy. Saturday- bike 2hr 30 min(5 min HARD, 5 min easy, 10 min HARD, 5 easy, 20 min HARD, 5 easy, 10 min HARD, 5 EASY, 5 MIN HARD, 5 easy, then 5 x 1 min MAX, 1 min easy, 35 min easy. Sunday-Run 1 hr 30 min with 10 x 800 m HARD, 250 m recovery. The following Monday would probably be a swim or easy bike. Does that seem like a lot? |
| 2014-07-14 4:35 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results This is sprint training? Seems like a lot to me, but I kinda suck, so I wouldn't be a great judge. I'd think your long bike and long run could probably be modified a little and that would make big difference I bet. Again, though, I'm certainly in no position to offer good advice, although I find it's easier for me to see what others should be doing compared to knowing what I should be doing, lol. |
| 2014-07-14 5:34 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Member 622 Franklin, TN | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Are you getting enough sleep? Did you taper at all for the sprint this weekend? Both of these will obviously affect your performance. Bike & run speed seem pretty good to me but if you've plateaued then you might want to look at doing some things differently. Run: I don't know what your potential is on the run but it wouldn't hurt to follow more of the BarryP plan and put some more runs in your training (they don't have to be long efforts)...right now, it looks like your only running 3 times a week. What pace are you holding for the 10 x 800? Swim: You didn't mention your swim times but this may be the low-hanging fruit to better overall performance. Are you swimming with a masters group or are you doing all your swim training on your own? If you're currently averaging 1:30-1:45 per 100m then big gains will be tough...slower than that and you can see some real progress by swimming with a masters group that will push you and help identify stroke inefficiencies. Bike: Do you do any group rides...riding with others that are faster than you forces you to push harder than you would on your own. This was the number 1 recommendation to me from a buddy that is a Cat 1 cyclist. Hang with the faster folks as long as you can, get dropped, try again next time to hang a little longer.
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| 2014-07-14 5:45 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by mchadcota2 Just looked at this weeks training plan. Did a sprint race Saturday. Sunday was a 2 hour bike. (not hard) So today is day off. Tuesday- 1 hour bike with 10 x 0.5 mile Max hill climbs, easy pedal downhill. Swim 2400 yds (15 x 100) and drills. Wednesday-45 min easy run w/drills. Thurs-45 min swim(2200 yds). 1 hour bike (10 x 2 min hardest gear push,1 min easy). Friday- swim 2100 yds, Run- 1hour easy. Saturday- bike 2hr 30 min(5 min HARD, 5 min easy, 10 min HARD, 5 easy, 20 min HARD, 5 easy, 10 min HARD, 5 EASY, 5 MIN HARD, 5 easy, then 5 x 1 min MAX, 1 min easy, 35 min easy. Sunday-Run 1 hr 30 min with 10 x 800 m HARD, 250 m recovery. The following Monday would probably be a swim or easy bike. Does that seem like a lot? No, that doesn't seem like a lot at all, and it looks fairly well structured. I only see one hard run workout and 2 hard bike workouts. Swim workouts should all be pretty hard since it's so easy on your body. If you are only training for fast sprint races the only thing I'd do is split some of those runs up and make more running days. That Sunday run is pretty brutal and you can build run speed easier than 10 X 800 Hard. Unless you are VERY well trained your run form likely falls apart after about 4 X 800 so half of that workout is junk.....and at a 6:45 mile race pace I'd be willing to bet that's the case. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-14 5:47 PM |
| 2014-07-14 8:02 PM in reply to: #5025464 |
Extreme Veteran 680 Acworth, GA | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Does that seem like a lot? I am no coach and just compare to what I do. What you have listed as a typical week is about double in distance/duration than me. If you are focused on sprints, 2 1/2 rides to train for a 30 min bike leg and a 1 1/2 hour run for a 20 min run leg (at your stated speeds) would put me in a big hole fatigue wise. Those numbers are what I train at for a HIM. For a sprint, easily dial back the volume but keep the frequency. That is what I would do if I was focused in getting faster. |
| 2014-07-14 8:59 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by Mc Q Does that seem like a lot? I am no coach and just compare to what I do. What you have listed as a typical week is about double in distance/duration than me. If you are focused on sprints, 2 1/2 rides to train for a 30 min bike leg and a 1 1/2 hour run for a 20 min run leg (at your stated speeds) would put me in a big hole fatigue wise. Those numbers are what I train at for a HIM. For a sprint, easily dial back the volume but keep the frequency. That is what I would do if I was focused in getting faster. I counted 12.5 hours.....he's pretty fast....not out of the ordinary for a fast sprint program. In fact, light for the really fast sprint racers, especially on the swim. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-14 9:00 PM |
| 2014-07-15 1:44 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by mchadcota2 Just looked at this weeks training plan. Did a sprint race Saturday. Sunday was a 2 hour bike. (not hard) So today is day off. Tuesday- 1 hour bike with 10 x 0.5 mile Max hill climbs, easy pedal downhill. Swim 2400 yds (15 x 100) and drills. Wednesday-45 min easy run w/drills. Thurs-45 min swim(2200 yds). 1 hour bike (10 x 2 min hardest gear push,1 min easy). Friday- swim 2100 yds, Run- 1hour easy. Saturday- bike 2hr 30 min(5 min HARD, 5 min easy, 10 min HARD, 5 easy, 20 min HARD, 5 easy, 10 min HARD, 5 EASY, 5 MIN HARD, 5 easy, then 5 x 1 min MAX, 1 min easy, 35 min easy. Sunday-Run 1 hr 30 min with 10 x 800 m HARD, 250 m recovery. The following Monday would probably be a swim or easy bike. Does that seem like a lot? I take it you raced Sunfish last weekend? Here's a screenshot of my training plan this week, and I'm training for Sprint Nationals.
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| 2014-07-15 2:17 PM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by mchadcota2 Yeah I'm not at that point where it gets really hard to improve I wouldn't think. For a sprint race I'm usually around 22 mph and 6:45-6:50 runs. Swim is not great, usually middle of the pack swimmer. Really? You think those are lousy times? I've been at this for 7 years, and I've just recently gotten close to 22 mph and still chasing sub 7 min runes. I realize there are going to be people who think that's slow, but it's not. You're at the high end already. The sprint coarse where you average 22mph, is that a flat coarse? If it's flat, at 22mph you are probably front MOP on the bike? I would bet if you did some group rides with better cyclist (B+ to A- riders) you could improve your bike quickly- into the 23mph range for flat sprints. |
| 2014-07-16 9:50 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
New user 147 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Training hard with no results In my opinion 12.5 hours per week is a lot, combine that with the plan's lack of specifics about intensity and I suspect that you don't get enough race pace and higher intensity. I would expect to see much more specific direction in place of HARD and MAX. Assuming you have GPS for the run, those intervals could easily be defined as '5k pace', 'HM pace', etc. Without a power meter it is a little more difficult on the bike, unless you do the quality sessions on the trainer, but 'hardest gear push' come on, there is a big difference between potential gearing, say 53x11 and 50x12, what about uphill, wind, or which trainer you use? How about 50-60 rpm and a zone, power, or RPE level. For the Saturday bike, is 5 minutes HARD the same power as 20 minutes HARD? or is it a power that is hard for 5 minutes and a power that is hard for 20 minutes? And that Sunday run really bugs me, I don't know anybody who would advocate putting that much intensity into your longest run of the week. If I was to run 10 x 800m HARD with a 250m recovery I would have to take the recovery at a literal crawling pace, but that probably come back to the definition of HARD, I would think for an 800m interval that should be 10-20s/mile faster than 5k pace. My guess, based on limited information (and limited experience) is that you would benefit from reducing the total volume of high intensity work and increasing the level of intensity of that volume, probably cutting number of intervals back in a given session and likely increasing recovery time between intervals so you can really hit those high efforts. |
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