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2014-07-16 4:53 PM


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Subject: What would you do?
This weekend I was racing in an Olympic tri. I am a MOP swimmer and a FOP biker ish. I came out of the water in 27 minutes with a plan to hit the bike course at 25+ mph.

Shortly past the mount line all of my plans went sideways. I started to the left side of the lane knowing I would be passing a group of people that came out of transition just before me. I dropped into my aero bars as the road was clear in my lane but out of courtesy I yelled on your left to the group in front of me... In response the left most rider in the group looks over his shoulder and swerves in front of me... If I had to guess the difference in speed was somewhere in the 10 mph range.

I immediately came up into the pursuits and grabbed the breaks or as I would like to say I hit the eject button. Sending me over the handle bars at ~20 mph. My bike and new aero helmet made it out of the crash with only cosmetic damage. I however have torn up palms, elbow, shoulder, leg and ankle. I managed to finish the race in 2 hours and 40 minutes after talking with the medic for 20 minutes.

My question is what would you have done in that situation? Should I have just tried to run him over (most likely damaging both bikes)? I might have been able to make it between the cones into the closed lane.

I am mostly mad because the course was super fast and my time should have been much better and I have an Ironman in 3 weeks.


2014-07-16 5:05 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: What would you do?
Here's what I would have done:

1st - stay right except to pass; even if you know you are going to be passing soon, until you are executing the passes, then stay right.

2nd - use your best judgment as to whether to yell on your left or not; if the riders are sketchy, then I'll give them more room and probably say nothing.

3rd - if you know you'll be riding through a group of less experienced cyclists, be prepared for anything as they are prone to doing the unexpected (from an experienced cyclist's point of view)

ETA - also, sorry to hear about your crash - never fun to hit the pavement.

Shane

Edited by gsmacleod 2014-07-16 5:32 PM
2014-07-16 5:11 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

Wow, sorry to hear about your crash!   heal up well.

To the question though, I dont' understand your options; brake as you did, or run into him?  I can't think that's a serious question......   As the rider coming from behind it's your job to avoid contact if possible.  If you ran into him without having to, you'd turn from the victim of the crash into the aggressor.

The mount line of races is always a sketchy place, same as aid stations.  Just have to be really careful there and expect that people will do dumb things.  as for making it between cones into a closed lane... tough one.  Technically a rules violation, but if done to avoid a certain crash, that  is understandale (of course, if there's traffic there, you are risking a head on, which may be [much] worse).

ANd yeah, I call left depending on circumstances.  And more often than not in races, I don't and just pass wide

Again, sorry about the crash.  Tough situation to be in



Edited by ChrisM 2014-07-16 5:11 PM
2014-07-16 5:35 PM
in reply to: ChrisM


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Subject: RE: What would you do?
I was not really suggesting to run into the other rider those just seemed the only options available. It was within 500 feet of the mount line.

Oncoming traffic was not an issue the road out of the parking lot that I was on was completely closed to traffic just coned off. Probably the best solution would have been to come off the mount line a little slower or learn to swim faster.

Overall I think it was just a bad situation.
2014-07-16 6:19 PM
in reply to: dougie2008

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Subject: RE: What would you do?
Probably the best solution would have been to come off the mount line a little slower...

Yes this.

It is unreasonable to expect to come off the crowded mount area at 25 mph- start slower and get up to speed when it's more clear.

Even if someone swerves in front of you, you are still responsible if you are coming from behind. If your only option was to crash into him or brake and go over your handlebars, then it sounds like you weren't riding in control in this crowded situation.

Heal up well.

2014-07-16 8:34 PM
in reply to: dougie2008

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Subject: RE: What would you do?
Was serving to the other lane an option? I know it is a penalty to cross the center line maybe even DQ? But it might have saved you the crash and soreness.

Seems if you have time to mash the brakes you would have had time to serve?

Or,

Just thinking out loud, waited until you were past the first few slow pokes and let traffic spread out before you dropped into the aero bars?



2014-07-16 9:01 PM
in reply to: dougie2008

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

Sorry about your crash.

As a crappy swimmer and much faster biker myself, I can relate to your situation.  That said, it is always the responsibility of the person passing to do so safely.  In the future, I would only pass with that type of speed difference (10 mph) if I knew I had a very wide area to make that pass, where calling out "on your left" is not necessary.  With those speed differences, you would have to yell really loud from quite far back in order for it to be useful anyway...which is not only a waste of your energy yelling so loud, but often startles the person being passed.  Not quite the same as passing someone with a 1-3 mph difference where the actual pass takes longer...thus a yell isn't as necessary as just verbally speaking it.

Keep in mind that even applying your brakes to slow down for a 20 second period (going 18 mph instead of 25 mph)...really only costs you about 3-5 seconds total to your time at the most.  I know what it's like to want to race full gas, but sometimes it's just not worth it.  Of course there is always the option of looking for races where there is an elite category starting first and do those races.  Should ensure that almost everyone in front of you at the mount line is an above average bike handler and there aren't 10 mph speed differences.

Hope you recover well for your IM.

2014-07-17 7:44 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: What would you do?
I am a BOP swimmer and FOP cyclist who is fairly new to this sport, but I have noticed the mount line is almost as much of a scrum as the swim start. I am particularly cautious near the mount line because there are so many people who don't stay right if they are slow, who fall over trying to clip in, who get clipped in but fall over because they are trying to take off going uphill in their biggest gear, etc... And don't get me started on that guy who ran into me last year because he just had to put his shoes on after they were clipped in and couldn't control his bike (do NOT do that in a race without adequate practice). It might be that I am just not competitive enough, but I will take a 10s loss there rather than crash.
2014-07-17 8:16 AM
in reply to: dougie2008

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

Originally posted by dougie2008 This weekend I was racing in an Olympic tri. I am a MOP swimmer and a FOP biker ish. I came out of the water in 27 minutes with a plan to hit the bike course at 25+ mph. Shortly past the mount line all of my plans went sideways. I started to the left side of the lane knowing I would be passing a group of people that came out of transition just before me. I dropped into my aero bars as the road was clear in my lane but out of courtesy I yelled on your left to the group in front of me... In response the left most rider in the group looks over his shoulder and swerves in front of me... If I had to guess the difference in speed was somewhere in the 10 mph range. I immediately came up into the pursuits and grabbed the breaks or as I would like to say I hit the eject button. Sending me over the handle bars at ~20 mph. My bike and new aero helmet made it out of the crash with only cosmetic damage. I however have torn up palms, elbow, shoulder, leg and ankle. I managed to finish the race in 2 hours and 40 minutes after talking with the medic for 20 minutes. My question is what would you have done in that situation? Should I have just tried to run him over (most likely damaging both bikes)? I might have been able to make it between the cones into the closed lane. I am mostly mad because the course was super fast and my time should have been much better and I have an Ironman in 3 weeks.

To me, risking injury when you have an Ironman in 3 weeks, just isn't worth it. I think coming out of transition you should have been a bit more cautious with your speed and passing people, till the crowd cleared out. Unfortunately, there are way too many people in tri's who lack basic bike knowledge (aka: passing on your left means you need to move right) and/or bike handling skills. Hitting the person wouldn't have done any better. Either way a wreck was going to happen because they got in your way. 

I always balance my risk vs. the reward. If I'm in a situation where a bike wreck could happen easily, I just back off my speed and wait till the chaos thins out. I can make up that time somewhere else. It's only a few seconds anyways. 

2014-07-17 8:17 AM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

Originally posted by happyscientist I am a BOP swimmer and FOP cyclist who is fairly new to this sport, but I have noticed the mount line is almost as much of a scrum as the swim start. I am particularly cautious near the mount line because there are so many people who don't stay right if they are slow, who fall over trying to clip in, who get clipped in but fall over because they are trying to take off going uphill in their biggest gear, etc... And don't get me started on that guy who ran into me last year because he just had to put his shoes on after they were clipped in and couldn't control his bike (do NOT do that in a race without adequate practice). It might be that I am just not competitive enough, but I will take a 10s loss there rather than crash.

Perfect description of the mount and dismount line. 

2014-07-17 8:25 AM
in reply to: KSH

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

Originally posted by KSH

Originally posted by happyscientist I am a BOP swimmer and FOP cyclist who is fairly new to this sport, but I have noticed the mount line is almost as much of a scrum as the swim start. I am particularly cautious near the mount line because there are so many people who don't stay right if they are slow, who fall over trying to clip in, who get clipped in but fall over because they are trying to take off going uphill in their biggest gear, etc... And don't get me started on that guy who ran into me last year because he just had to put his shoes on after they were clipped in and couldn't control his bike (do NOT do that in a race without adequate practice). It might be that I am just not competitive enough, but I will take a 10s loss there rather than crash.

Perfect description of the mount and dismount line. 

I've taken the 5-10 seconds in places and still come out near 2 minutes faster than the 2nd fastest bike split of the day. It can be really annoying, but do avoid contact and be well aware of when & how situations can turn sketchy quickly.



2014-07-17 12:12 PM
in reply to: dougie2008

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

*I* probably wouldn't be on the aerobars in a congested area.  I'd want better maneuverability and my hands on the brake levers whenever I don't have good exit strategies.  If the traffic has thinned after the first 0.1 miles, I could see moving to an aero position once it's clear enough for me to safely pass other riders.  Coming in, I'm not screaming up to the dismount line at 25+ mph still in an aero tuck.  

I'd probably get a new helmet.  If I went down and my helmet hit the bricks, I wouldn't trust that the damage is only cosmetic.  I crashed in my Ironman and didn't realize my helmet hit the ground until I looked at it and saw the cracked Styrofoam.  .  

2014-07-17 12:45 PM
in reply to: McFuzz

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

 

Sorry but I think you were in the wrong here. Starting to the left is technically against the rules. But going that fast and being in the arrow bars within 500 feet of the line is a bad idea any day of the week. Mount line and aid stations are where people get stupid and unpredictable, best to slow down a bit and be near the brakes in these areas unless they are clear or allow a wide area for passing. 

The guy should not have swerved in front of you, but the accident was avoidable on your part IMO. Unfortunately triathletes get their stereotype for a reason, why be good at one thing when you can suck at 3? Triathletes in general are not good bike handlers, add that to the idiots who think they are the only person on the course and it requires a bit more caution to ride in a triathlon. 

I am a not so hot swimmer and an ok rider. I passed over 500 people on the bike in my IM, there were a lot of them that were not paying any attention to their surroundings, swerving back and forth or just plain riding down the center or left side of the lane. Pretty lame, but part of the sport.

2014-07-17 3:45 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: What would you do?
If your helmet has cosmetic damage that means it hit something and needsto be replaced.
2014-07-18 4:13 PM
in reply to: McFuzz


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Subject: RE: What would you do?
looking over my Garmin transition I was probably closer to 15 mph so the speed difference was probably not as big.

The helmet damage is on the vary tip at the back of the helmet (rudy project aero helmet). I was laying on my back after the accident and hit the point on the pavement. There is no other scratching or damage on the shell that would indicate an impact with the ground during the crash. I have inspected the rest of the helmet and found nothing of concern.

As I stated above my take away from the event is to take it easy out of transition. This will be big during the IM as there are supposed to be over 3000 athletes and I will be exiting the swim with a good number of them.

I also being new to the sport did not realize there was a difference between the elite wave and the pros. So that could be an option in future races.
2014-07-18 4:39 PM
in reply to: dougie2008

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

 

Watch out for aid stations in your IM as well. Not sure which one you are doing but many are multiple lap courses so there are all levels of cyclists on the course at one time. I had a few people do some crazy stuff in the aid stations. Best to slow down, be near the brakes and take them wide if you are not grabbing aid. 

Hope you heal well and have a great IM!



2014-07-18 5:31 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: What would you do?

I realize in a race one would hope that everyone would know what "on your left" means but obviously not.  I have had WAY too many people do exactly what that guy did and look over their left shoulder and serve left rather than move to the right.  I say "Passing on your left" now  If I am passing someone and there is enough space I typically don't say anything.  Less risky.  I slow to a crawl around mom dad their 3 obese kids and the dog who can barely ride a mile.   I guess I end up riding around a lot of clueless people because I stick to trails closed to motorized traffic.   Presume ignorance

2014-07-19 12:44 AM
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Subject: RE: What would you do?
Originally posted by Socks

  • ..... I have had WAY too many people do exactly what that guy did and look over their left shoulder and serve left rather than move to the right.



  • Inexperienced cyclists don't have the bike handling skills to keep from steering where they look. You scream "on your left" new cyclist looks over left shoulder and inadvertently swerves left in the process.

    This is exactly why I also choose to say nothing at all.

    Edited by JZig 2014-07-19 12:45 AM
    2014-07-19 9:03 PM
    in reply to: dougie2008

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    Subject: RE: What would you do?
    Originally posted by dougie2008

    I was not really suggesting to run into the other rider those just seemed the only options available. It was within 500 feet of the mount line.

    Oncoming traffic was not an issue the road out of the parking lot that I was on was completely closed to traffic just coned off. Probably the best solution would have been to come off the mount line a little slower or learn to swim faster.

    Overall I think it was just a bad situation.


    honestly, what you should have done is not try to ride 20 mph coming out of the bike mount area, especially seeing there was a pack of cyclists in front of you. someone in the front of the pack might have been having trouble getting a foot into a clip, swerved, and forced the others to swerve, or, or, or. as people are mounting, you need to keep in mind that you are responsible for everyone's safety. that close to the mount line, stay on the brakes and wait until you get around them to accelerate to your 20 mph. until you become a faster swimmer, you have no business being that aggressive that close to the mount line.

    sorry about the crash, good news you are ok and hopefully learned a relatively painless something.
    2014-07-19 9:41 PM
    in reply to: sheesleeva

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    Subject: RE: What would you do?
    Sorry about the crash. It sounds like you learned your lesson and it's a good reminder for all of us.
    I've learned to say "passing on your left" in a pleasant voice, esp on charity rides, MUPs, or around swervy riders in tris. Most of those don't really know what "on your left" means, and shouting usually startles them.
    Also a good reminder for all of us to ride on the right, and ride in a straight line! Just like there's always that person on a highway who goes 5 over the speed limit in the left lane, there's always that person (mostly in charity rides) who's going 14 mph and thinks because he's passing kids on cruisers, he should keep left.
    2014-07-20 10:08 AM
    in reply to: 0

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    Subject: RE: What would you do?

    Everybody has pretty much covered it, but I'll summarize how I think about the start of the bike leg.

    1.Control yourself and resist the adrenaline fueled "GO GO GO" screaming in your mind.
    2.Evaluate and predict the skills and behaviors of the riders around you and adjust your behavior accordingly.
    3.Don't ride significantly slower or faster than other riders until you're out of the race start and onto the real part of the course and spacing out has started.
    4.Don't get on the aero bars until it's clearly safe to do so.
    5.If you can't do advanced stuff like putting your feet into shoes already mounted on the bike, then don't even try it.  You're a danger to yourself and others.

    After 11 seasons of racing, I've got story where I or someone around me has violated each of those rules and ran into problems.

    The OP story can be summarized as "a guy blasting out of transition at 20mph on his aerobars crashing after startling a group of newbies going much slower."  I've seen that before, and it's a result of violating #1 (go go go mentality), #2 (not figuring out it was a group of newbies, and that on your left might startle them), a #3 and #4 (going too fast too early, and aerobars too early).

    I've seen the pile up at an Ironman bike start where someone fell over trying to buckle their shoes while on the bike. Some races now ban that kind of thing because of it's too crash-prone, and only allow the pros to do that.

     



    Edited by brucemorgan 2014-07-20 10:23 AM


    2014-07-20 10:21 AM
    in reply to: dougie2008

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    Subject: RE: What would you do?

    Dougie2008, you might want to rethink your attitude and race day behavior. If I take your comments out of context, it summarizes as a very "it's all about me and my race" attitude.

    >> shortly past the mount line all of my plans went sideways.
    >> I started to the left side of the lane knowing I would be passing a group of people that came out of transition just before me.
    >> I dropped into my aero bars as the road was clear in my lane but out of courtesy I yelled on your left to the group in front of me...
    >> Should I have just tried to run him over (most likely damaging both bikes)? I might have been able to make it between the cones into the closed lane.
    >> I am mostly mad because the course was super fast and my time should have been much better and I have an Ironman in 3 weeks.
    >> I was not really suggesting to run into the other rider those just seemed the only options available.

    It's understandable you want to do well on your races, but you're going to be one of 2500 riders out on that course and everyone wants to do well, no one wants to crash or cause others to crash.

    The fact you would even write "should I have just tried to run him over", even if you later say you weren't really doing that, should be a big warning to you. And it looks like you wrote your post a few days after the race, enough time for some perspective on your race behavior to develop.

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