General Discussion Triathlon Talk » USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2014-07-24 8:30 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Billyk Is there a rule for "pitching the aid station bottle?" If I receive a bottle at the aid station and have trouble opening it before being able to drinking it, I might be well past the end of the aid station. If I don't have an open bottle space on my bicycle and end up pitching it, is this a penalty?

It's under littering. If you're past the designated area, then yes, it's a penalty. 




If the aid station is no longer in sight as the rule states.


2014-07-24 8:31 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by LarchmontTri Really? C'mon now, let's be honest here. We all pick and choose to some degree. For example, you always drive the speed limit in your car, right? Never driven more than 30mph in a 30mph zone? Never pushed it on the highway because you're late for something? Really? It's not entitlement - it's just the facts on the ground during a race. If there is no other way to pass and I've tried to do my best to follow the rules, then I will pass safely on the right. No big deal. I'm sure the parable about the man with no sin casting the first stone probably applies here, but for the sake of this thread, let's just agree to disagree. ok?

In spite of what some may say, the rules may be strong, but are not quite absolute. Shane is TriCan Certified and tends to know USAT fairly well. Ben Cagle just went through the USAT part and has explained on the discretion allowed in enforcing this. Ben might be able to help remember the head USAT guy at Knoxville last year who also gave situations where this is permissible in the official course/rules talk (wasn't Crawford). Charlie Crawford himself has given situations where they will not penalize. Charlie has even written a little something where crossing a double yellow is ok. In all cases, do what you can to follow the letter of the rules first, but they understand that not every situation can be completely accounted for in the rules. And do know that if you don't follow the letter that an official's discretion may not match up with what you believe.




Exactly. Charlie denied me a penalty this weekend because safety was not in question.
2014-07-25 10:00 AM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations

Originally posted by LarchmontTri
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by siouxcityhawk

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by ec1974 I'm very much a newbie, Sunday will be my second race and first sanctioned race. I'm not clear on passing on the bike. Your point on passing, does that mean you approach the rider ahead of you but are unable to complete the pass and fall back again? I'm not clear what "exited through the rear" means. Also I understand, for safety, that you should ride to the right and pass on the left but is it illegal to pass on the right?
I was unclear on that, too. I am also wondering about situations where I start to pass someone, they swerve in front of me, and I fall back to avoid hitting them. Does that count as drafting? Can you settle the dispute about what to do if someone is clinging to the yellow line and you need to pass them?

 

I like to yell  "ON YOUR LEFT!!!"  If he still doesn't move then I like to yell "GET THE F-CK OVER!!!"  

Now you could have the issue of pros in the race that do ride on the left side, but chances are "we" are not passing pros.  At least, I know I'm not passing a pro.

 

They get two "On you left"s, followed by "Get the f--- out of the way!" That doesn't always work, though. I have had to pass right on a few occasions (slow swimmer, fast cyclist, so I have a lot of people to pass on the bike). I have found the worst offenders to be people on tribikes who seem to think that because they are aero, I can't possibly be talking to them.

So you admit to being a rule breaker and dangerous rider. 

Mark

I would be surprised if folks haven't had to pass on the right before. I know I have at times and I've seen plenty of folks do it. Circumstances on the road don't always go by the book, and that may require passing folks on the right. Passing on the left is best, but I think that as long as folks call out where they're passing and do it safely(!), then it's no big deal.

I disagree completely with the bold.  I see a lot of posts here and on ST where people claim that circumstances come up where you can't follow the rules.  I'm calling BS.  It's not that the rules can't be followed, it that individuals don't like what the rules say.  You never have to pass on the right.  You choose to.

Under USAT rules, the person riding left is violating the position rule and/or blocking rule.  When you approach them from the rear, and they fail to move right, you can either follow the rules, and stay behind them (out of their draft zone), or choose to pass on the right (knowing that you are violating the rules and subject to a penalty.)

 

2014-07-25 10:11 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by LarchmontTri
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by siouxcityhawk

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by ec1974 I'm very much a newbie, Sunday will be my second race and first sanctioned race. I'm not clear on passing on the bike. Your point on passing, does that mean you approach the rider ahead of you but are unable to complete the pass and fall back again? I'm not clear what "exited through the rear" means. Also I understand, for safety, that you should ride to the right and pass on the left but is it illegal to pass on the right?
I was unclear on that, too. I am also wondering about situations where I start to pass someone, they swerve in front of me, and I fall back to avoid hitting them. Does that count as drafting? Can you settle the dispute about what to do if someone is clinging to the yellow line and you need to pass them?

 

I like to yell  "ON YOUR LEFT!!!"  If he still doesn't move then I like to yell "GET THE F-CK OVER!!!"  

Now you could have the issue of pros in the race that do ride on the left side, but chances are "we" are not passing pros.  At least, I know I'm not passing a pro.

 

They get two "On you left"s, followed by "Get the f--- out of the way!" That doesn't always work, though. I have had to pass right on a few occasions (slow swimmer, fast cyclist, so I have a lot of people to pass on the bike). I have found the worst offenders to be people on tribikes who seem to think that because they are aero, I can't possibly be talking to them.

So you admit to being a rule breaker and dangerous rider. 

Mark

I would be surprised if folks haven't had to pass on the right before. I know I have at times and I've seen plenty of folks do it. Circumstances on the road don't always go by the book, and that may require passing folks on the right. Passing on the left is best, but I think that as long as folks call out where they're passing and do it safely(!), then it's no big deal.

I disagree completely with the bold.  I see a lot of posts here and on ST where people claim that circumstances come up where you can't follow the rules.  I'm calling BS.  It's not that the rules can't be followed, it that individuals don't like what the rules say.  You never have to pass on the right.  You choose to.

Under USAT rules, the person riding left is violating the position rule and/or blocking rule.  When you approach them from the rear, and they fail to move right, you can either follow the rules, and stay behind them (out of their draft zone), or choose to pass on the right (knowing that you are violating the rules and subject to a penalty.)

 

I don't know......they can't BOTH be breaking the rules from the way I look at these things.  If someone WON'T move over, then that's the infraction.  It IS a race, not a bike ride.

2014-07-25 10:15 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Extreme Veteran
2261
20001001002525
Ridgeland, Mississippi
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by LarchmontTri
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by siouxcityhawk

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by ec1974 I'm very much a newbie, Sunday will be my second race and first sanctioned race. I'm not clear on passing on the bike. Your point on passing, does that mean you approach the rider ahead of you but are unable to complete the pass and fall back again? I'm not clear what "exited through the rear" means. Also I understand, for safety, that you should ride to the right and pass on the left but is it illegal to pass on the right?
I was unclear on that, too. I am also wondering about situations where I start to pass someone, they swerve in front of me, and I fall back to avoid hitting them. Does that count as drafting? Can you settle the dispute about what to do if someone is clinging to the yellow line and you need to pass them?

 

I like to yell  "ON YOUR LEFT!!!"  If he still doesn't move then I like to yell "GET THE F-CK OVER!!!"  

Now you could have the issue of pros in the race that do ride on the left side, but chances are "we" are not passing pros.  At least, I know I'm not passing a pro.

 

They get two "On you left"s, followed by "Get the f--- out of the way!" That doesn't always work, though. I have had to pass right on a few occasions (slow swimmer, fast cyclist, so I have a lot of people to pass on the bike). I have found the worst offenders to be people on tribikes who seem to think that because they are aero, I can't possibly be talking to them.

So you admit to being a rule breaker and dangerous rider. 

Mark

I would be surprised if folks haven't had to pass on the right before. I know I have at times and I've seen plenty of folks do it. Circumstances on the road don't always go by the book, and that may require passing folks on the right. Passing on the left is best, but I think that as long as folks call out where they're passing and do it safely(!), then it's no big deal.

I disagree completely with the bold.  I see a lot of posts here and on ST where people claim that circumstances come up where you can't follow the rules.  I'm calling BS.  It's not that the rules can't be followed, it that individuals don't like what the rules say.  You never have to pass on the right.  You choose to.

Under USAT rules, the person riding left is violating the position rule and/or blocking rule.  When you approach them from the rear, and they fail to move right, you can either follow the rules, and stay behind them (out of their draft zone), or choose to pass on the right (knowing that you are violating the rules and subject to a penalty.)

 

I don't know......they can't BOTH be breaking the rules from the way I look at these things.  If someone WON'T move over, then that's the infraction.  It IS a race, not a bike ride.

Yeah all the rider passing on the right is doing is ignoring the rider on the left that refuses to move over.  I deal with crap like this occasionally when races start younger waves last for whatever reason they do that.  Sometime you have to make a dodgy pass if you want to keep progressing.  It's part of racing.



Edited by msteiner 2014-07-25 10:15 AM
2014-07-25 10:24 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

User image

Master
3205
20001000100100
ann arbor, michigan
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by LarchmontTri
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by siouxcityhawk

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by ec1974 I'm very much a newbie, Sunday will be my second race and first sanctioned race. I'm not clear on passing on the bike. Your point on passing, does that mean you approach the rider ahead of you but are unable to complete the pass and fall back again? I'm not clear what "exited through the rear" means. Also I understand, for safety, that you should ride to the right and pass on the left but is it illegal to pass on the right?
I was unclear on that, too. I am also wondering about situations where I start to pass someone, they swerve in front of me, and I fall back to avoid hitting them. Does that count as drafting? Can you settle the dispute about what to do if someone is clinging to the yellow line and you need to pass them?

 

I like to yell  "ON YOUR LEFT!!!"  If he still doesn't move then I like to yell "GET THE F-CK OVER!!!"  

Now you could have the issue of pros in the race that do ride on the left side, but chances are "we" are not passing pros.  At least, I know I'm not passing a pro.

 

They get two "On you left"s, followed by "Get the f--- out of the way!" That doesn't always work, though. I have had to pass right on a few occasions (slow swimmer, fast cyclist, so I have a lot of people to pass on the bike). I have found the worst offenders to be people on tribikes who seem to think that because they are aero, I can't possibly be talking to them.

So you admit to being a rule breaker and dangerous rider. 

Mark

I would be surprised if folks haven't had to pass on the right before. I know I have at times and I've seen plenty of folks do it. Circumstances on the road don't always go by the book, and that may require passing folks on the right. Passing on the left is best, but I think that as long as folks call out where they're passing and do it safely(!), then it's no big deal.

I disagree completely with the bold.  I see a lot of posts here and on ST where people claim that circumstances come up where you can't follow the rules.  I'm calling BS.  It's not that the rules can't be followed, it that individuals don't like what the rules say.  You never have to pass on the right.  You choose to.

Under USAT rules, the person riding left is violating the position rule and/or blocking rule.  When you approach them from the rear, and they fail to move right, you can either follow the rules, and stay behind them (out of their draft zone), or choose to pass on the right (knowing that you are violating the rules and subject to a penalty.)

 




I wish I could find the post.

One of the bigger name officials, Crawford, Riccitello, can't remember who, actually commented on this at one point and to my memory basically said that if someone would not move right, and that you could complete the pass on their right safely, that you could do so and not be penalized. Instead the other athlete would be penalized for blocking. Again, this is from my memory. I have looked in the past and been unable to find my 'source' but I think that it is true.... Obviously the defense at a race, "well this guy, Jason on BT said it would be ok," is probably not going to fly.

It sure would be nice if a higher-up/experienced USAT ref would comment on this (no offense to Ben ) In fact, if you still have a way to contact Charlie Crawford it would be awesome if he popped in here to BT for a short guest appearance to enlighten us.

I suspect that he would say what others have said, that it is situational and would vary. I also suspect that he would not actually say it was OK to pass on the right for fear of opening the flood gates. I also suspect that most people see this as a much less serious infraction than drafting.
Obviously some folks are absolute, letter of the law people, and I can respect that.


2014-07-25 10:41 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations
Originally posted by wannabefaster

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by LarchmontTri
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by siouxcityhawk

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by ec1974 I'm very much a newbie, Sunday will be my second race and first sanctioned race. I'm not clear on passing on the bike. Your point on passing, does that mean you approach the rider ahead of you but are unable to complete the pass and fall back again? I'm not clear what "exited through the rear" means. Also I understand, for safety, that you should ride to the right and pass on the left but is it illegal to pass on the right?
I was unclear on that, too. I am also wondering about situations where I start to pass someone, they swerve in front of me, and I fall back to avoid hitting them. Does that count as drafting? Can you settle the dispute about what to do if someone is clinging to the yellow line and you need to pass them?

 

I like to yell  "ON YOUR LEFT!!!"  If he still doesn't move then I like to yell "GET THE F-CK OVER!!!"  

Now you could have the issue of pros in the race that do ride on the left side, but chances are "we" are not passing pros.  At least, I know I'm not passing a pro.

 

They get two "On you left"s, followed by "Get the f--- out of the way!" That doesn't always work, though. I have had to pass right on a few occasions (slow swimmer, fast cyclist, so I have a lot of people to pass on the bike). I have found the worst offenders to be people on tribikes who seem to think that because they are aero, I can't possibly be talking to them.

So you admit to being a rule breaker and dangerous rider. 

Mark

I would be surprised if folks haven't had to pass on the right before. I know I have at times and I've seen plenty of folks do it. Circumstances on the road don't always go by the book, and that may require passing folks on the right. Passing on the left is best, but I think that as long as folks call out where they're passing and do it safely(!), then it's no big deal.

I disagree completely with the bold.  I see a lot of posts here and on ST where people claim that circumstances come up where you can't follow the rules.  I'm calling BS.  It's not that the rules can't be followed, it that individuals don't like what the rules say.  You never have to pass on the right.  You choose to.

Under USAT rules, the person riding left is violating the position rule and/or blocking rule.  When you approach them from the rear, and they fail to move right, you can either follow the rules, and stay behind them (out of their draft zone), or choose to pass on the right (knowing that you are violating the rules and subject to a penalty.)

 




I wish I could find the post.

One of the bigger name officials, Crawford, Riccitello, can't remember who, actually commented on this at one point and to my memory basically said that if someone would not move right, and that you could complete the pass on their right safely, that you could do so and not be penalized. Instead the other athlete would be penalized for blocking. Again, this is from my memory. I have looked in the past and been unable to find my 'source' but I think that it is true.... Obviously the defense at a race, "well this guy, Jason on BT said it would be ok," is probably not going to fly.

It sure would be nice if a higher-up/experienced USAT ref would comment on this (no offense to Ben ) In fact, if you still have a way to contact Charlie Crawford it would be awesome if he popped in here to BT for a short guest appearance to enlighten us.

I suspect that he would say what others have said, that it is situational and would vary. I also suspect that he would not actually say it was OK to pass on the right for fear of opening the flood gates. I also suspect that most people see this as a much less serious infraction than drafting.
Obviously some folks are absolute, letter of the law people, and I can respect that.


Yup, ditto. You take the offenses in-line with how the play out in the race. If blocking is preventing from someone passing on the right, the blocking individual will be penalized first, and if the athlete passing on the right is not putting anyone in danger the penalty will be waived. This is where "overtaken" comes into play. If you are passed, it become your responsibility to move out of the draft zone, not the passers job to get the required distance ahead of you.
2014-07-25 11:39 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

User image


754
5001001002525
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations
See why I asked?
2014-07-25 12:48 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

User image

Member
1748
100050010010025
Exton, PA
Subject: RE: USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by LarchmontTri
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by siouxcityhawk

Originally posted by happyscientist
Originally posted by ec1974 I'm very much a newbie, Sunday will be my second race and first sanctioned race. I'm not clear on passing on the bike. Your point on passing, does that mean you approach the rider ahead of you but are unable to complete the pass and fall back again? I'm not clear what "exited through the rear" means. Also I understand, for safety, that you should ride to the right and pass on the left but is it illegal to pass on the right?
I was unclear on that, too. I am also wondering about situations where I start to pass someone, they swerve in front of me, and I fall back to avoid hitting them. Does that count as drafting? Can you settle the dispute about what to do if someone is clinging to the yellow line and you need to pass them?

 

I like to yell  "ON YOUR LEFT!!!"  If he still doesn't move then I like to yell "GET THE F-CK OVER!!!"  

Now you could have the issue of pros in the race that do ride on the left side, but chances are "we" are not passing pros.  At least, I know I'm not passing a pro.

 

They get two "On you left"s, followed by "Get the f--- out of the way!" That doesn't always work, though. I have had to pass right on a few occasions (slow swimmer, fast cyclist, so I have a lot of people to pass on the bike). I have found the worst offenders to be people on tribikes who seem to think that because they are aero, I can't possibly be talking to them.

So you admit to being a rule breaker and dangerous rider. 

Mark

I would be surprised if folks haven't had to pass on the right before. I know I have at times and I've seen plenty of folks do it. Circumstances on the road don't always go by the book, and that may require passing folks on the right. Passing on the left is best, but I think that as long as folks call out where they're passing and do it safely(!), then it's no big deal.

I disagree completely with the bold.  I see a lot of posts here and on ST where people claim that circumstances come up where you can't follow the rules.  I'm calling BS.  It's not that the rules can't be followed, it that individuals don't like what the rules say.  You never have to pass on the right.  You choose to.

Under USAT rules, the person riding left is violating the position rule and/or blocking rule.  When you approach them from the rear, and they fail to move right, you can either follow the rules, and stay behind them (out of their draft zone), or choose to pass on the right (knowing that you are violating the rules and subject to a penalty.)

 




Your right it is a choice, you can choose to sit behind the person that is violating the blocking rule or choose to make the illegal pass.

I have passed on the right several times and I'm sure I will again. If I'm being blocked and its safe to pass I'm going around. My age group gets started in the back a lot, so there are a lot of slower riders on the coarse. I know the rules, and if I get a penalty then that's fine. Not like I'm taking any money home. I am there to race, not sit behind someone for 20 miles at 15 mph because they don't want to move.
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » USAT Officials Clinic/First Race Observations Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2
 
 
RELATED POSTS

USAT Level I clinic ?

Started by asj10
Views: 921 Posts: 4

2010-04-27 7:53 PM KSH

USAT Coaching Clinic anyone?

Started by cam224
Views: 666 Posts: 3

2010-01-15 11:11 AM cam224

Race official observation/question

Started by cobannero
Views: 733 Posts: 4

2006-05-03 1:09 PM Rocket Man

Spectator at First Triathlon: Observations

Started by stupidnickname
Views: 2577 Posts: 18

2005-09-21 8:22 AM apw0397

USAT official observations

Started by madkat
Views: 823 Posts: 10

2005-09-12 9:45 PM madkat
RELATED ARTICLES
date : March 15, 2012
author : USATriathlon
comments : 1
This USAT Rules Clinic will help you avoid penalties. Topics discussed will be rules of the transition area, drafting penalties, the drafting zone, challenging penalties and more.
 
date : June 4, 2006
author : Rich Strauss
comments : 2
I was not an official; I simply observed the race and the officials doing their thing. Here is what I saw:
date : April 17, 2005
author : Team BT
comments : 0
How to be a BOPer or MOPer in a FOPer world. As a middle of the pack athlete, I have adopted some things I do to assure a victorious feeling at every event I finish.