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2014-07-24 8:54 AM


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Subject: Fast 5k
I've been doing tris for about 4 years and decided to take a break for a few months from strict structured training. But I just have a theoretical question and wanted some opinions. I have lost a good bit of muscle over the years since doing tris because I used to lift a lot. So I am actually going to try to put a few pounds of muscle back on. But I also plan to keep running a good bit. My question is, do you think my 5 k time would improve if 2 to 3 times per week I went out and ran a HARD 5K(race pace). So basically eliminating longer runs, easy runs, intervals, etc. And I guess apply the same principle to biking. If I went out 2 or 3 times per week and did a 20 mile time trial, would my speed for 20 miles improve? Obviously I can't do both each week cuz that would be too much. What do you think?


2014-07-24 9:04 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
I would advise against it, as many others will agree. You want to run LOTS, mostly easy, sometimes hard. Race pace, and perhaps maybe a little faster than race pace, should be done with a speedwork session once or twice a week with something like 6x400m etc.

The really really fast 5K guys I know run 50-70 miles per week. You can improve on less than that, but it has to be quality training with good recovery in between sessions.

Hal Higdon has some free training plans for almost every distance, take a look at what he has.

http://www.halhigdon.com/training/50934/5K-Intermediate-Training-Pr...
2014-07-24 9:05 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
short answer

no. Not unless you are pretty undertrained at the moment.
2014-07-24 9:52 AM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
If you just do three short hard runs, your speed will improve to a point but eventually plateau. To really get faster, you would want to be doing a combination of longer aerobic runs, shorter speed work runs, and tempo runs (longer than 5k but not as hard).
2014-07-24 9:54 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

What is your idea of "fast"?

 

2014-07-24 10:00 AM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
Originally posted by Left Brain

What is your idea of "fast"?

 




Right now my 5k pace is around 6:20-25. I've been training with a coach for the last year and have done all the longer runs, easier runs, speed work, tempo, etc. My 5k speed has not improved. That's why I'm wondering about doing something a little different. I would think I would get better just because I'm getting my body used to that sustained hard effort. I've been doing short hard intervals for so long that when I actually do a 5k, I don't have the mental toughness to hold on to that hard effort. The answer I was looking for is "Yes! You will get SO fast doing that!" Haha! Thanks for your input.


2014-07-24 10:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Originally posted by mchadcota2
Originally posted by Left Brain

What is your idea of "fast"?

 

Right now my 5k pace is around 6:20-25. I've been training with a coach for the last year and have done all the longer runs, easier runs, speed work, tempo, etc. My 5k speed has not improved. That's why I'm wondering about doing something a little different. I would think I would get better just because I'm getting my body used to that sustained hard effort. I've been doing short hard intervals for so long that when I actually do a 5k, I don't have the mental toughness to hold on to that hard effort. The answer I was looking for is "Yes! You will get SO fast doing that!" Haha! Thanks for your input.

So you're a 20:00 5k'er.  Have you ever been faster? How old are you?  These threads have great potential for fun/discussion (the "just-run-more mafia" will eventually show up).....but the variables between people are where the details likely are.  To answer your question....I agree with the others....you won't get a faster 5K by running a race pace 5K 2 or 3 times per week.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-24 10:07 AM
2014-07-24 10:08 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
Originally posted by mchadcota2

Originally posted by Left Brain

What is your idea of "fast"?

 




Right now my 5k pace is around 6:20-25. I've been training with a coach for the last year and have done all the longer runs, easier runs, speed work, tempo, etc. My 5k speed has not improved. That's why I'm wondering about doing something a little different. I would think I would get better just because I'm getting my body used to that sustained hard effort. I've been doing short hard intervals for so long that when I actually do a 5k, I don't have the mental toughness to hold on to that hard effort. The answer I was looking for is "Yes! You will get SO fast doing that!" Haha! Thanks for your input.


Then it sounds like you would benefit fromm some time trials-- but not necessarily a hard 5K three times per week! Generally if you can hold a speed for a 3k time trial you can hold that for a 5K in a race.

Also, race more.

p.s. if you are paying a coach, he/she should really know what kind of advice to give you to get off of a speed plateau, since he/she knows more closely what you've been doing. If the same pattern of long runs, speed work, and intervals isn't working, then you do have to change something up. But dropping your volume and doing all time trialing isn't the answer.

Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-07-24 10:10 AM
2014-07-24 10:12 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Originally posted by jennifer_runs
Originally posted by mchadcota2
Originally posted by Left Brain

What is your idea of "fast"?

 

Right now my 5k pace is around 6:20-25. I've been training with a coach for the last year and have done all the longer runs, easier runs, speed work, tempo, etc. My 5k speed has not improved. That's why I'm wondering about doing something a little different. I would think I would get better just because I'm getting my body used to that sustained hard effort. I've been doing short hard intervals for so long that when I actually do a 5k, I don't have the mental toughness to hold on to that hard effort. The answer I was looking for is "Yes! You will get SO fast doing that!" Haha! Thanks for your input.
Then it sounds like you would benefit fromm some time trials-- but not necessarily a hard 5K three times per week! Generally if you can hold a speed for a 3k time trial you can hold that for a 5K in a race. Also, race more. p.s. if you are paying a coach, he/she should really know what kind of advice to give you to get off of a speed plateau, since he/she knows more closely what you've been doing. If the same pattern of long runs, speed work, and intervals isn't working, then you do have to change something up. But dropping your volume and doing all time trialing isn't the answer.

Wisdom in bold. ^^

2014-07-24 10:13 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Originally posted by mchadcota2 ..., do you think my 5 k time would improve if 2 to 3 times per week I went out and ran a HARD 5K(race pace). So basically eliminating longer runs, easy runs, intervals, etc. ...

You would be eliminating all those parts of your training that make running 20min at 97% MaxHR possible.   5K's, as short as they seem; are endurance races.

I've added a 5K race, once a week for a few weeks to my training... AS my speedwork.  But, it's on top of 50+ mile weeks.  So, still, mostly easy, sometimes hard.  Mostly just because there's a local summer race series that I like to do.  it's actually a 3.5mi hilly course- but my 5K split last night in sticky warm temps was 20:05- and I'm pretty thrilled with that as a 50 year old guy.  I know I can go sub20 now  

2014-07-24 10:18 AM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
I'm 36 years old and I've never been faster than that. Actually the last 5 k race I did was 2 years ago and that was my speed. So I really haven't improved much since. Of course I haven't been training for 5 k's either. Just got done with an ironman in May. Since the consensus is that I wouldn't improve by doing the hard 5ks, my next question is could it hurt? Would I at least be able to maintain my fitness by doing that? Or lets add this to the equation, lets say run hard 5k twice/week and then 2 or 3 easy slightly longer runs each week.


2014-07-24 10:23 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Originally posted by mchadcota2 I'm 36 years old and I've never been faster than that. Actually the last 5 k race I did was 2 years ago and that was my speed. So I really haven't improved much since. Of course I haven't been training for 5 k's either. Just got done with an ironman in May. Since the consensus is that I wouldn't improve by doing the hard 5ks, my next question is could it hurt? Would I at least be able to maintain my fitness by doing that? Or lets add this to the equation, lets say run hard 5k twice/week and then 2 or 3 easy slightly longer runs each week.

What can you run a mile in?  What were the intervals you were doing and how fast?

2014-07-24 10:29 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
To get fast for a 5k you need:

1) Endurance
2) Good pace at threshold
3) Good pace at VO2max

To build 1, run lots; mostly easy, sometimes hard. As frequently as you can, with a long run that is no more than 30% of your overall volume.

For 2, threshold efforts (about one hour race pace) of 15-30 minutes either continuously or broken up in intervals. This should be comfortably hard.

For 3, you want to run fast than 5k pace (I would use VDot to get an idea of you I pace) and do things like 400s at I pace with 400 easy repeats, building to 800s at I pace with 400 easy recovery and finally 1000 or 1200s with 600 easy (max should be about 5:00 for the distance) and total work should be about 15 minutes at I pace to start and max about 25 minutes.

Shane
2014-07-24 10:31 AM
in reply to: Left Brain


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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Fast 5k
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by mchadcota2 I'm 36 years old and I've never been faster than that. Actually the last 5 k race I did was 2 years ago and that was my speed. So I really haven't improved much since. Of course I haven't been training for 5 k's either. Just got done with an ironman in May. Since the consensus is that I wouldn't improve by doing the hard 5ks, my next question is could it hurt? Would I at least be able to maintain my fitness by doing that? Or lets add this to the equation, lets say run hard 5k twice/week and then 2 or 3 easy slightly longer runs each week.

What can you run a mile in?  What were the intervals you were doing and how fast?



My mile speed is about 5:40. I did different types of intervals but mostly time based. Example...1 min hard/1min easy, 2 min hard/1 min easy. And I'd do those at around 5:15-5:30 and 5:45-6:00 respectively.
2014-07-24 10:34 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
Originally posted by jennifer_runs

p.s. if you are paying a coach, he/she should really know what kind of advice to give you to get off of a speed plateau, since he/she knows more closely what you've been doing. If the same pattern of long runs, speed work, and intervals isn't working, then you do have to change something up.


X2 - if you want to get fast for 5k, tell your coach and let them get you there.

Shane
2014-07-24 10:41 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by mchadcota2
Originally posted by Left Brain

What is your idea of "fast"?

 

Right now my 5k pace is around 6:20-25. I've been training with a coach for the last year and have done all the longer runs, easier runs, speed work, tempo, etc. My 5k speed has not improved. That's why I'm wondering about doing something a little different. I would think I would get better just because I'm getting my body used to that sustained hard effort. I've been doing short hard intervals for so long that when I actually do a 5k, I don't have the mental toughness to hold on to that hard effort. The answer I was looking for is "Yes! You will get SO fast doing that!" Haha! Thanks for your input.

So you're a 20:00 5k'er.  Have you ever been faster? How old are you?  These threads have great potential for fun/discussion (the "just-run-more mafia" will eventually show up).....but the variables between people are where the details likely are.  To answer your question....I agree with the others....you won't get a faster 5K by running a race pace 5K 2 or 3 times per week.

 

BOLD Part^^^  

Made me laugh.

 



2014-07-24 10:46 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2


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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
You should really work on extending the distance of your interval workouts. Keep overall mileage high on a weekly basis, but as mentioned above, you need to transition from 400's to 600's to 800's to 1000's. As you do that, you will begin to build the mental toughness you mentioned you are lacking while also increasing VO2 max. Additionally, race more, and by "race," I mean you need to compete against others you are running with. If you are not able to stay focused during the race, then you are only running. If you are actively trying to beat someone, then you are racing and all of your focus will be on being as fast as possible until the finish line.

You should also consider that training for triathlon is different from training just to run. Cutting out biking and swimming, picking a few running races, and then training properly with a good taper will likely get you the results that you're wanting. Right now you're a generalist in 3 sports, if you want to just run, you'll become a specialist in that sport. Don't try to rewrite the book on becoming a fast 5K runner. Whether you believe weekly volume is the only thing that counts or that it counts for very little, no one will tell you to abandon it if you want to be fast.
2014-07-24 11:05 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

everyone here can offer their thoughts on the topic, but i think it would be more interesting if you gave it a try and posted again in this thread the results after 6 weeks.  would make for a perfect reference every time something like this is asked. 

2014-07-24 11:58 AM
in reply to: Clempson

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
Originally posted by Clempson

everyone here can offer their thoughts on the topic, but i think it would be more interesting if you gave it a try and posted again in this thread the results after 6 weeks.  would make for a perfect reference every time something like this is asked. 




I like it.
2014-07-24 2:31 PM
in reply to: Clempson

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
Originally posted by Clempson

everyone here can offer their thoughts on the topic, but i think it would be more interesting if you gave it a try and posted again in this thread the results after 6 weeks.  would make for a perfect reference every time something like this is asked. 




Here ya go, I went ahead and did pretty similar 5 years ago, October and November of 2009, my training logs are complete if you are interested in more detail, Cliff notes follow (apologies for the formatting, this is cut and paste and BT isn't playing nice with Word):

Basic stats at the time were 36 years old, 2 seasons of triathlon, typical SBR volume ~5 hours per week, just coming off of a season plagued with IT band and similar issues, 5k PR was ~19 min and hadn't changed much in over a year (hadn't been training to improve 5k time, the point is my running fitness was fairly stable).

• Plan was loosely based on Furman Institute (Run Less, Run Faster) modified with a more tri flavor to run even less
• Objectives were:
o improve 5k PR
o run fewer than 3 days per week
o run fewer than 20 miles per week
o avoid overuse injuries
• Ran generally every 3 days, occasional every 2 when feeling good towards the end (averaged 2.5 runs/week)
• Rotated through VO2max (sub 5k pace, 400m-1600m intervals), threshold (10k pace, 1-3 mile intervals), endurance (5-8 miles somewhere between half-marathon and ‘comfortable’ pace)
• Weekly mileage averaged 13.3, max was 20
• Mixed biking and swimming (limited due to pool access) between run workouts as active recovery and additional workout stimulation
• Bike workouts were also interval focused, although loosely structured
• Running breakdown by time: 12% at VO2max, 11% at threshold, 27% at endurance, balance was WU, CD, & recovery
• Total workout time was 200-300 minutes per week including time spent stretching/strength
• Results:
o The first 2 weeks were miserable: blew up, missed interval times, cut workouts short (long run Furman paces are ridiculous fast)
o The next 2 weeks were better but less focus on times and more on perceived exertion
o 5th or 6th week was the breakout week, interval times were spot-on, workouts started leaving me wanting more
o Results was 40s improvement in 5k from 2 races 8 weeks apart (19:06 to 18:26)
o Big improvements in my benchmark bike hillclimb from 2:45 to 2:17 (Ogg Rd.)
o Hips, knees, and shins are as pain free as anytime within the past 2 years
• My guess is there would be several more weeks of big gains to be had before a plateau, however, the off-season was calling.
Note, raced 2 more 5ks over the next 5 months without any more run focused training (i.e. went back to general tri mode) and improved PR by a couple more seconds in each
2014-07-24 2:45 PM
in reply to: mikec123

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Originally posted by mikec123
Originally posted by Clempson

everyone here can offer their thoughts on the topic, but i think it would be more interesting if you gave it a try and posted again in this thread the results after 6 weeks.  would make for a perfect reference every time something like this is asked. 

Here ya go, I went ahead and did pretty similar 5 years ago, October and November of 2009, my training logs are complete if you are interested in more detail, Cliff notes follow (apologies for the formatting, this is cut and paste and BT isn't playing nice with Word): Basic stats at the time were 36 years old, 2 seasons of triathlon, typical SBR volume ~5 hours per week, just coming off of a season plagued with IT band and similar issues, 5k PR was ~19 min and hadn't changed much in over a year (hadn't been training to improve 5k time, the point is my running fitness was fairly stable). • Plan was loosely based on Furman Institute (Run Less, Run Faster) modified with a more tri flavor to run even less • Objectives were: o improve 5k PR o run fewer than 3 days per week o run fewer than 20 miles per week o avoid overuse injuries • Ran generally every 3 days, occasional every 2 when feeling good towards the end (averaged 2.5 runs/week) • Rotated through VO2max (sub 5k pace, 400m-1600m intervals), threshold (10k pace, 1-3 mile intervals), endurance (5-8 miles somewhere between half-marathon and ‘comfortable’ pace) • Weekly mileage averaged 13.3, max was 20 • Mixed biking and swimming (limited due to pool access) between run workouts as active recovery and additional workout stimulation • Bike workouts were also interval focused, although loosely structured • Running breakdown by time: 12% at VO2max, 11% at threshold, 27% at endurance, balance was WU, CD, & recovery • Total workout time was 200-300 minutes per week including time spent stretching/strength • Results: o The first 2 weeks were miserable: blew up, missed interval times, cut workouts short (long run Furman paces are ridiculous fast) o The next 2 weeks were better but less focus on times and more on perceived exertion o 5th or 6th week was the breakout week, interval times were spot-on, workouts started leaving me wanting more o Results was 40s improvement in 5k from 2 races 8 weeks apart (19:06 to 18:26) o Big improvements in my benchmark bike hillclimb from 2:45 to 2:17 (Ogg Rd.) o Hips, knees, and shins are as pain free as anytime within the past 2 years • My guess is there would be several more weeks of big gains to be had before a plateau, however, the off-season was calling. Note, raced 2 more 5ks over the next 5 months without any more run focused training (i.e. went back to general tri mode) and improved PR by a couple more seconds in each

You should have ran more.   

Nice work!



2014-07-24 3:10 PM
in reply to: mikec123

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Originally posted by mikec123
Originally posted by Clempson

everyone here can offer their thoughts on the topic, but i think it would be more interesting if you gave it a try and posted again in this thread the results after 6 weeks.  would make for a perfect reference every time something like this is asked. 

Here ya go, I went ahead and did pretty similar 5 years ago, October and November of 2009, my training logs are complete if you are interested in more detail, Cliff notes follow (apologies for the formatting, this is cut and paste and BT isn't playing nice with Word): Basic stats at the time were 36 years old, 2 seasons of triathlon, typical SBR volume ~5 hours per week, just coming off of a season plagued with IT band and similar issues, 5k PR was ~19 min and hadn't changed much in over a year (hadn't been training to improve 5k time, the point is my running fitness was fairly stable). • Plan was loosely based on Furman Institute (Run Less, Run Faster) modified with a more tri flavor to run even less • Objectives were: o improve 5k PR o run fewer than 3 days per week o run fewer than 20 miles per week o avoid overuse injuries • Ran generally every 3 days, occasional every 2 when feeling good towards the end (averaged 2.5 runs/week) • Rotated through VO2max (sub 5k pace, 400m-1600m intervals), threshold (10k pace, 1-3 mile intervals), endurance (5-8 miles somewhere between half-marathon and ‘comfortable’ pace) • Weekly mileage averaged 13.3, max was 20 • Mixed biking and swimming (limited due to pool access) between run workouts as active recovery and additional workout stimulation • Bike workouts were also interval focused, although loosely structured • Running breakdown by time: 12% at VO2max, 11% at threshold, 27% at endurance, balance was WU, CD, & recovery • Total workout time was 200-300 minutes per week including time spent stretching/strength • Results: o The first 2 weeks were miserable: blew up, missed interval times, cut workouts short (long run Furman paces are ridiculous fast) o The next 2 weeks were better but less focus on times and more on perceived exertion o 5th or 6th week was the breakout week, interval times were spot-on, workouts started leaving me wanting more o Results was 40s improvement in 5k from 2 races 8 weeks apart (19:06 to 18:26) o Big improvements in my benchmark bike hillclimb from 2:45 to 2:17 (Ogg Rd.) o Hips, knees, and shins are as pain free as anytime within the past 2 years • My guess is there would be several more weeks of big gains to be had before a plateau, however, the off-season was calling. Note, raced 2 more 5ks over the next 5 months without any more run focused training (i.e. went back to general tri mode) and improved PR by a couple more seconds in each

There you go OP.  Now go forth and get faster. 

2014-07-25 5:41 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k
The short answer is no, it won't make you faster.

To really get faster, you need endurance to sustain the effort; hence you need the long runs. I would add 2 interval sessions per week, one longer interval (to gain sustained speed) and one short intervals (to gain top end speed).

If your mile is 5:40 and you run a 5k at 6:20 pace, then you need increased endurance. I bet if you run 1/2 mile, that pace is significantly faster than 5:40…

Same thing goes for the bike. Long ride to gain endurance, long intervals to raise FTP and short intervals to gain top end power.
2014-07-25 9:51 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Originally posted by gsmacleod To get fast for a 5k you need: 1) Endurance 2) Good pace at threshold 3) Good pace at VO2max To build 1, run lots; mostly easy, sometimes hard. As frequently as you can, with a long run that is no more than 30% of your overall volume. For 2, threshold efforts (about one hour race pace) of 15-30 minutes either continuously or broken up in intervals. This should be comfortably hard. For 3, you want to run fast than 5k pace (I would use VDot to get an idea of you I pace) and do things like 400s at I pace with 400 easy repeats, building to 800s at I pace with 400 easy recovery and finally 1000 or 1200s with 600 easy (max should be about 5:00 for the distance) and total work should be about 15 minutes at I pace to start and max about 25 minutes. Shane

Shane's post seems to have been glossed over, but he gave you pretty much everything you need to know right here.

 

 

2014-07-25 12:31 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast 5k

Outside of the training aspect (there's already been good stuff mentioned) it sounds like you just need to learn to suffer too. Sign up for a 5k and go blow it up. I don't mean just run hard until you feel like you have to slow down, I mean absolutely, completely, blow up out there. Bet you make it a lot farther than you think

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