Total Immersion Swimming

2014-07-31 3:14 PM

201

Hereford, England

Subject: Total Immersion Swimming

Hi People!

Today in my swimming session I decided to do a little TI swimming on my 10x100m sets. I found I was swimming about 10s per 100m quicker than normally (1m35s down to 1m25s). So when I got home I went and had a look around on youtube, again, at TI swimming.

This is the link which I found best, there are 9 parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BapqHAf96BM

What do you think about this style? Or does it depend on current swimming standards? The guy seems to put good points across, or is it just a good sales pitch? He did have a few stats to back up lower stroke rate = higher speed. I know stats can prove anything - I have more legs than the average man = 2. As some people have fewer, 2 isn't the average, as an example.

Do you look at your stoke rate per length or just time? Any thoughts on this type of swimming?

2014-07-31 3:24 PM

in reply to: Eucid

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Originally posted by Eucid

Hi People!

Today in my swimming session I decided to do a little TI swimming on my 10x100m sets. I found I was swimming about 10s per 100m quicker than normally (1m35s down to 1m25s). So when I got home I went and had a look around on youtube, again, at TI swimming.

This is the link which I found best, there are 9 parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BapqHAf96BM

What do you think about this style? Or does it depend on current swimming standards? The guy seems to put good points across, or is it just a good sales pitch? He did have a few stats to back up lower stroke rate = higher speed. I know stats can prove anything - I have more legs than the average man = 2. As some people have fewer, 2 isn't the average, as an example.

Do you look at your stoke rate per length or just time? Any thoughts on this type of swimming?

I'm not sure what your real concerns are, so it's hard to advise.

you made a deliberate decision to swim with a certain technique (not specified what you did differently) and you swam 10 seconds faster. Sounds good to me.

Statistics are different than math. swim speed = A x B. Stroke length x stroke rate = speed. or inversely, SPL x tempo = time / length.

I never look at "just time", I look at what made that time...you did somethign different and swam faster.

What did you do differently to swim 10 seconds faster that yo udon't normally do?

2014-07-31 3:29 PM

in reply to: AdventureBear

201

Hereford, England

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

I just concentrated on longer, better strokes stokes really.

I was mainly just wondering if others use this type of swimming? Or what would be reasons for not using it?

2014-07-31 3:31 PM

in reply to: Eucid

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Originally posted by Eucid

I just concentrated on longer, better strokes stokes really.

I was mainly just wondering if others use this type of swimming? Or what would be reasons for not using it?

See my sig line for my "bias". I use it. Can't think of any reason not to use it. Others will I am sure.

You interacted with teh water better...you streamlined more...you swam faster...sounds like progress. Enjoy it & keep practicing.

2014-07-31 3:35 PM

in reply to: AdventureBear

201

Hereford, England

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Lol. Yes, I guess you have to use it!

Can you recommend any good resources for it? I want to drop 400m in a 25m pool (for a tri), swimming once a week from 6min to 5m30s by 28th September.

2014-07-31 3:39 PM

in reply to: Eucid

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Originally posted by Eucid

Lol. Yes, I guess you have to use it!

Can you recommend any good resources for it? I want to drop 400m in a 25m pool (for a tri), swimming once a week from 6min to 5m30s by 28th September.

No I don't have to use it. I use it and teach it by choice and teach others how to use it.

YOu could get their 10 lesson freestyle dvd "perpetual Motion Freestyle" that's their most recent DVD. I am currently teaching a course live in the TI academy specifically for triathletes that might be helpful for you as well that takes things like SPL range and tempos into account while creating speed.

What was your pace in the 10 x 100 that you just posted about and how many strokes are you taking to do that? How tall are you?

Are you saying you only swim once a week? (that makes it tougher)

2014-07-31 3:47 PM

in reply to: AdventureBear

201

Hereford, England

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

I'm 188cm, 6`2". I noted on the clips he said use 13-16 strokes for a 25 yard pool. Not really much different from a 25m pool though I guess.

Due to time and money, yeah I only swim once a week. Also, saving 30s in the pool is good, but my bike is weak and with more training on that I could save more time in that section.

For the 10 x 100m, the only thing I know is my time, about 1m25s per 100m. Although I remembered about TI swimming, I forgot about counting strokes.

I will give that DVD a look.

Sidney Porter

2014-07-31 3:53 PM

in reply to: Eucid

631

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

I think the knock on TI comes from people that say that it can cause over gliding. I beleive that when TI is properly taught it would not cause over gliding but some beginners see a video or 2 and incorporate the gliding part, but they end up over gliding. They can then get down to 2:00ish/100 but it is hard to get faster (w/o other changes). The haters have latched on to this and claim that it causes everyone to over glide and swim slow.

2014-07-31 3:56 PM

in reply to: Eucid

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Originally posted by Eucid

I'm 188cm, 6`2". I noted on the clips he said use 13-16 strokes for a 25 yard pool. Not really much different from a 25m pool though I guess.

Due to time and money, yeah I only swim once a week. Also, saving 30s in the pool is good, but my bike is weak and with more training on that I could save more time in that section.

For the 10 x 100m, the only thing I know is my time, about 1m25s per 100m. Although I remembered about TI swimming, I forgot about counting strokes.

I will give that DVD a look.

25m pool you can add 1-2 strokes per length. Terry has been swimming TI for 25 years, adn swimming compentitively for another 20 years prior to that, so his 13-16SPL is not necessarily teh "right" target for you. I think he is about 6' tall or 5'11". he's taller than average for sure.

So to clarify, you tried longer strokes and swim 1:25/100 for 10 x 100 with how much rest? And prior to remembering TI you swam 1:35/100m for a 10 x 100?

1:25/100 is certainly pretty decent...how long could you sustain that and at what effort? Conversely, have you tried a 400m time trial whiel thinking of thte same change that took 10 sec/100 off your stroke? What pace are you swimming for that and how many strokes?

You are basically changing one element right now (longer strokes) , and collecting data on 2 other things (SPL & time)

When you collect data like this you start to see patterns that you can then use to start creating plans to get you from point A to point B as in improving your 400m swim time.

2014-07-31 4:08 PM

in reply to: AdventureBear

201

Hereford, England

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

1 min rest between 100s. Last swim session when I did my 10x100m I did the first about 1m25s, the second under 1m30s, then the remaining I was trying to keep under 1m35s.

No I haven't tried a 400m time trial trying for TI swimming. Would that be a good suggestion for next week? I don't know how long I could sustain it for, I have done some 6min 200s, non TI, but I don't know if I could carry it too much further.

Recently I've only been doing 100s or 50s with little rest, 20-30s. Today it was a minute rest, as I did 10 x 50m in about 34s with 1 min rest, not TI, before hand.

2014-07-31 4:54 PM

in reply to: Eucid

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Originally posted by Eucid

1 min rest between 100s. Last swim session when I did my 10x100m I did the first about 1m25s, the second under 1m30s, then the remaining I was trying to keep under 1m35s.

No I haven't tried a 400m time trial trying for TI swimming. Would that be a good suggestion for next week? I don't know how long I could sustain it for, I have done some 6min 200s, non TI, but I don't know if I could carry it too much further.

Recently I've only been doing 100s or 50s with little rest, 20-30s. Today it was a minute rest, as I did 10 x 50m in about 34s with 1 min rest, not TI, before hand.

OK, so I would suggest you continue collecting data while exploring various focal points.

It's great that TI inspired you to try the longer strokes & streamlining mroe (which is what I think happened), but I'm not sure you can say that you are doing "TI Swimming" or "Not trying TI swimming".

Good swimming involves interacting with the water well including good balance, reducing drag, streamlining the torso & body line and creating efficient propulsion. It doesn't matter what you do or don't name it at the time.

You will also want to correlate how your effort is after each repeat.

Here is what I would suggest.

First measure where you are. Thinking about your longer stroke (which for you is TI inspired) swim an evenly paced 400m swim while counting strokes. You may find you have a stroke range, and not just a single stroke count that occurs over and over again. It's also fine i fyou don't remember your coutns for every single lengthbut get the first few when you're fresh, and get the last few as you're fatiguing. Generally staying in a 2 or 3 count range is what you want. If SPL goes up 3 or more strokes you are starting adn finishing with two very different "stroke styles"

See where you are with the new thoughts...maybe you've reduced your time already. : )

2014-07-31 4:58 PM

in reply to: AdventureBear

201

Hereford, England

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Sounds good. I'll report back next Thursday!

ECS49

2014-07-31 9:40 PM

in reply to: Eucid

152

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

My very short experience with it, and I am POSITIVE I am still doing many things incorrect as I try to learn more and more how to do things correct, is this:

25m pool I usually averaged 22-24 strokes per length, once I switched to TI swimming I was doing the same length at 15-17. Now for me that is a huge number. Let me add this though, even though the # of strokes dramatically reduced my TIME didn't improve nearly the same. 100% sure because I am doing something(s) wrong, I would say my time over 100m improved 5-7 seconds. Secondary benefit though of not being nearly as worn out going from 100ish strokes per 100 to 70ish strokes per 100 has to be noted.

Just got the book so the lessons shall continue

2014-08-01 12:54 PM

in reply to: ECS49

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

that sounds like a common initial outcome...time may or may not be faster, but RPE is signfiicantly reduced. That means WHEN you sort out how to put energy back into it correctly, you'll be a lot faster.

tjfry

2014-08-02 12:15 PM

in reply to: AdventureBear

Expert

2547

The Woodlands, TX

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Originally posted by AdventureBear . Statistics are different than math. swim speed = A x B. Stroke length x stroke rate = speed. or inversely, SPL x tempo = time / length. I never look at "just time", I look at what made that time...

When I kick my Stroke length = 0 and my stroke rate =0, but my speed is 1:30 per 100. Swimming isn't a simple math equation.

To the OP, if a change makes you faster, it seems like you're on the right track. I'm not a TI guy, nor a TI fan when it's over prescribed, but it sounds like TI could be a fit for you.

2014-08-02 6:30 PM

in reply to: tjfry

Subject: ...

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2014-08-03 9:49 PM

in reply to: tjfry

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Originally posted by tjfry

When I kick my Stroke length = 0 and my stroke rate =0, but my speed is 1:30 per 100. Swimming isn't a simple math equation.

To the OP, if a change makes you faster, it seems like you're on the right track. I'm not a TI guy, nor a TI fan when it's over prescribed, but it sounds like TI could be a fit for you.

So just look at what makes the time and add another element..kick rate and distance moved per kick...probabaly easier to count sets of kicks in freestyle. Misty Hyman used underwater kick length & speed vs. surface stroke rate & speed to determine her best strategy to win gold. UDKs are a little easier to count than freestyle kicks.

But most swimmers develop SOME sort of a consistent kick with their freestyle, even if its ineffective making the basic stroke rate & length formula work fine for someone like the OP.

2014-08-07 1:51 PM

in reply to: Eucid

201

Hereford, England

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Just reporting back after my next swim session.

What I did tonight was:

400m
5 x 50m
2 x 100m

On the 400m I only concentrated on counting my stroke, along with trying to counting the lengths, it can be fun...

. I was doing a flip turn every turn, and I always try to make sure my first breath (1 stoke with my right arm, and breath left) is after the 5m flag.

I managed it in 5m55s. About the same as my last tri, but 25s off what I want. I think I started too fast, as I suffered on the last 50-75m. The first couple of lengths I did it in 14 strokes. The last couple of lengths in 17 strokes. The middle 12 lengths were 15 or 16 strokes.

The 50m were done in 37s, with 1 min rest. I didn't really focus on much, apart from not rushing the stroke.

I decided to do an "easy" 100m, just focusing on long strokes (16 per length), and I came back in 1m21s. I was a bit shocked about that, as normally at the end of a session I'd be expecting 1m30-35s. So I decided to do another 100m.

This 100m I focused on long stroke and also when my lead arm was getting thrust forward, I was trying a powerful twist of the hips. I don't know if this is a "thing" in TI? But I finished in 1m18s!

When I've been doing sets of 100m, the first, where I normally go off too fast, it's normally about 1m25s. So I don't know where the 1m18s came from.

Is a powerful hip twist something in TI or does it just work for me? Either way is fine with me

2014-08-07 2:11 PM

in reply to: Eucid

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Total Immersion Swimming

Originally posted by Eucid

Just reporting back after my next swim session.

What I did tonight was:

400m
5 x 50m
2 x 100m

On the 400m I only concentrated on counting my stroke, along with trying to counting the lengths, it can be fun...

It's good swimming! You are finding length & streamlining in the water, which means that each stroke you take starts from a further forward position, and as a result you're getting more distnace with what sounds like less effort.

Congratulations

(yes TI does teah "hip nudge", "hip drive", "core rotation" but so do many other great coaches, it's not exclusive)