Food and performance

2014-09-01 9:34 AM

Subject: Food and performance

Hi all,

I'm new here and figured I'd just jump right in. I've done three sprint duathlons (swimming technique is not good enough to even attempt a tri yet...) a few years ago but stopped the sport for a while as things changed in my life. This past summer I've started getting more interested in it again and have started training in earnest for next season by running/biking. My goal this winter is to get my swimming fast enough to not be last out of the lake.

I've been spending a considerable amount of time trying to figure out foods that work for me. Since my goal is also a bit of weight loss as well, it's important that I balance my ability to complete a training run/bike while also not going nuts on calories. I've identified a few foods that I can eat that don't bog my down and still work to keep me going, but I have a very confusing set of problems:

1) although I know that "everyone is different", I still can't quite figure out what it is about those few foods that "work for me". If I knew, then I could seek out more of the same kinds of foods.
2) For whatever reason, the foods that work are typically either fruit or breakfast foods.

I've been trying to find an answer to this question: why do some foods work great, give me tons of immediate energy with enough staying power to last through a workout, and other foods either don't have the staying power (huge energy spike that just dies off) or make me feel tired (the feeling of "I just can't push any harder today")?

as an example, let's take three foods: special K with dates, canteloupe, and bran flakes. Both cereals are eaten with unsweetened almond milk.

Special K with dates is probably my best choice, it meets all of my energy/calorie needs for whatever reason. Canteloupe doesn't bog me down but doesn't have staying power. Bran flakes totally bog me down and I can't seem to get any energy to push through a long run or bike. At first I thought it had something to do with sugars or glycemic loads, but the two cereals are more or less on par with each other on those two metrics (and special k with dates is higher in sugars due to the dates). It really doesn't make much sense to me, since they seem to compare almost exactly.

My meals before a workout, which are typically eaten 30 minutes before, tend to be around 200 calories. I will drink a cup or more water with the meal, and take water with me for the workout. My workouts are currently around 45 minutes to one hour (5km run at a slow pace, 20km bike. Admittedly my pace is slow but I'm working on it :-P )

Here's the big problem: I've tried a lot of other things with what I feel is a wide variety of carb/protein/fat combinations, but most of them just don't work. Unless I'm going to resign myself to special K with dates every time, I'd like to figure out more options. The other big problem - I can't seem to find unbiased nutrition advice. Everywhere I go there seems to be someone with an opinion that contradicts someone else. This is tiresome and doesn't help answer my questions, and just confuses matters.

As an example, here are some other things I've tried:

- dry 0.5% MF cottage cheese with berries and unsweetened almond milk (slows me down)
- meat roll-ups with hummus and carrots (no staying power, no energy)
- Oatmeal (slows me down a LOT, makes workouts a chore)
- Vector cereal (slows me down)
- Pasta (OK but only after two hours or so of waiting, otherwise it's just too heavy)
- Bean salad - OK after waiting, otherwise slows me down.
- Ensure/high energy meal replacements (awful, never again after a bad race experience)
- Yogurt with fruit (slows me down)
- toast/egg (slows me down)
- Apple slices with raisins and cinnamon (not too bad, actually)
- grapefruit (Generally OK, but not always, probably depends on the day or how I'm feeling more than the food)
- Light meal like salad before the workout, then energy gel during (mixed bag, requires a lot of hydration, generally not a fan of this)

So, can anyone see a pattern that I'm missing? Any other suggestions?

moondawg14

2014-09-01 7:57 PM

in reply to: mstachowsky

Master

2380

Beijing

Subject: RE: Food and performance

Originally posted by mstachowsky Hi all, I'm new here and figured I'd just jump right in. I've done three sprint duathlons (swimming technique is not good enough to even attempt a tri yet...) a few years ago but stopped the sport for a while as things changed in my life. This past summer I've started getting more interested in it again and have started training in earnest for next season by running/biking. My goal this winter is to get my swimming fast enough to not be last out of the lake. I've been spending a considerable amount of time trying to figure out foods that work for me. Since my goal is also a bit of weight loss as well, it's important that I balance my ability to complete a training run/bike while also not going nuts on calories. I've identified a few foods that I can eat that don't bog my down and still work to keep me going, but I have a very confusing set of problems: 1) although I know that "everyone is different", I still can't quite figure out what it is about those few foods that "work for me". If I knew, then I could seek out more of the same kinds of foods. 2) For whatever reason, the foods that work are typically either fruit or breakfast foods. I've been trying to find an answer to this question: why do some foods work great, give me tons of immediate energy with enough staying power to last through a workout, and other foods either don't have the staying power (huge energy spike that just dies off) or make me feel tired (the feeling of "I just can't push any harder today")? as an example, let's take three foods: special K with dates, canteloupe, and bran flakes. Both cereals are eaten with unsweetened almond milk. Special K with dates is probably my best choice, it meets all of my energy/calorie needs for whatever reason. Canteloupe doesn't bog me down but doesn't have staying power. Bran flakes totally bog me down and I can't seem to get any energy to push through a long run or bike. At first I thought it had something to do with sugars or glycemic loads, but the two cereals are more or less on par with each other on those two metrics (and special k with dates is higher in sugars due to the dates). It really doesn't make much sense to me, since they seem to compare almost exactly. My meals before a workout, which are typically eaten 30 minutes before, tend to be around 200 calories. I will drink a cup or more water with the meal, and take water with me for the workout. My workouts are currently around 45 minutes to one hour (5km run at a slow pace, 20km bike. Admittedly my pace is slow but I'm working on it :-P ) Here's the big problem: I've tried a lot of other things with what I feel is a wide variety of carb/protein/fat combinations, but most of them just don't work. Unless I'm going to resign myself to special K with dates every time, I'd like to figure out more options. The other big problem - I can't seem to find unbiased nutrition advice. Everywhere I go there seems to be someone with an opinion that contradicts someone else. This is tiresome and doesn't help answer my questions, and just confuses matters. As an example, here are some other things I've tried: - dry 0.5% MF cottage cheese with berries and unsweetened almond milk (slows me down) - meat roll-ups with hummus and carrots (no staying power, no energy) - Oatmeal (slows me down a LOT, makes workouts a chore) - Vector cereal (slows me down) - Pasta (OK but only after two hours or so of waiting, otherwise it's just too heavy) - Bean salad - OK after waiting, otherwise slows me down. - Ensure/high energy meal replacements (awful, never again after a bad race experience) - Yogurt with fruit (slows me down) - toast/egg (slows me down) - Apple slices with raisins and cinnamon (not too bad, actually) - grapefruit (Generally OK, but not always, probably depends on the day or how I'm feeling more than the food) - Light meal like salad before the workout, then energy gel during (mixed bag, requires a lot of hydration, generally not a fan of this) So, can anyone see a pattern that I'm missing? Any other suggestions?

IMHO, the pattern I notice is: you're working out too soon after you eat. It takes energy to digest food. Your body is still diverting energy to your belly in order to digest. Nearly all of the foods that you list that "slow you down" are either high-fiber or high protein.

You don't describe what your current body shape is... but if I had to guess by what you described, you're already rather thin, OR, you're not eating enough overall to maintain a glycogen store in your muscles.

Again, IMHO, you should be able to complete a 45 minute workout at ANY TIME during the day. You shouldn't need to "fuel" for that. That's just my experience.

The last thing I would suggest is that you are "over-thinking" it. Relax a little, and see what happens.

2014-09-04 6:01 PM

in reply to: moondawg14

538

Brooklyn, New York

Subject: RE: Food and performance

You have many factors to consider, but throughout my years in training and as a personal trainer there are several things here I'd suggest to help:

There are factors that WILL contribute to how food treats you. Even amount of rest can affect what food does. Even stress can impact what food does.
What I would ask you is what you "expect to work for you" since you used that expression, I would want to know what you expect food to do. Clarify that if you could; including your age/weight/and general idea of bf%.

Though treating food solely as fuel is the wise way to go, we can't treat it as gasoline for a car.....fill up the tank and have it last for the ride.
Your body needs proper caloric balance several times a day (depending on individual goals/GENETICS/age/bodweight/exercise routine) roughly every 3 hours or so. If not, glycogen WILL drop low, insulin levels dip, you WILL get sluggish....then eat and then get more insulin spike, spiked glycogen, immediate energy and then worse off DIP into sluggishness, etc etc repeat cycle.

Regarding what you wrote:
> moondawg touched on the fiber detail; fiber WILL slow digestion and make you feel "fuller" - that's it's job.
> dawg also mentioned that heavy food or fiber consumption needs more digestion time, definite bogged down feeling
> Nowhere did you mention clean protein consumption besides beans (see fiber comment)
> Did not mention any "intolerances" or "allergies" - Get checked out - rule out things like gluten sensitivity, celiac issues, ibs, lactose intolerance - So much seems to slow you down that there may be a metabolic issue to investigate.
> You also didn't mention much in the way of meal-timing throughout the day.

That's enough for now, give some more info
TJ

2014-09-06 9:09 AM

in reply to: TJHammer

Subject: RE: Food and performance

hm, these are good points. I guess I didn't really think about the timing between meal and workout. Maybe what I meant was that there were just some foods that I could eat and immediately hit the road with (strangely, special K :-P ) and others that didn't let me do that. I've been trying to figure out how I do respond to a post-meal energy dip, and in the past week I actually have noticed that if I give it enough time (usually about 30 minutes) with reasonable meals I will get over that slow-down hump.

There definitely are foods that make me feel slower even with the wait, but these tend to be foods that I know aren't healthy anyway - things like pancakes or high sugar cereals need more digestion time or at least my body seems to need longer to get out of the funk after eating things like that.

protein is a strange mixed bag. I usually don't like to eat even lean protein like grilled chicken breast any time before a workout, but I've never tried it early in the morning. I have a "protein is for dinner" type mentality that is hard to break out of. I'll do an experiment with some lean protein in the morning before a workout some time and see.

For the record:

- 205 pounds
- 5' 10"
- Last time it was measured I was around 25% body fat
- I'm certainly not lean
- No sensitivities that I know of (except perhaps eggs)
- I can easily handle a 3K run at a 6 minute km pace, and a 5k run at a 7 min/km pace
- 20km rides at 20km/hr pace are fine (I am not in it to win it just yet, just trying for distance)
- I've never been a sprinter - low-intensity distance has always been my thing, even when I was a lot more active and fit.

2014-09-06 10:30 AM

in reply to: mstachowsky

538

Brooklyn, New York

Subject: RE: Food and performance

With no real gluten or wheat issues, you can try shifting your carbs into couscous/quinoa*(which I swear by)/sweet potatoes. These carbs are much "lighter" than white potatoes, oatmeals, more hardcore wheats like bread/brown rice/oatmeal & the pastas (unless you give quinoa pasta a shot. Try to consume less severe glycogen impactful fruits & focus on bananas, strawberries (heck - all of the berries are excellent in so many ways)

You can eat a relatively small portion of cous/quinoa/ or sweet pot & get a healthy sustained glycogen level until it's burned off (obviously quicker if exercise takes place)

Do you eat frequent meals throughout the day? What's the issue with eggs? They are perhaps the lightest, quickly digested food protein with complete amino acid profile. Trying to balance meals and time them throughout the day where the result is barely a "boost" & "dip" but more sustained levels is your objective. Personally, I have always avoided (in myself & advice of others) to never let a diet get out of hand or go long hours without food, that one becomes dependent on a big food meal as a "boost" - This tends to result in inconsistent energy levels & the dreaded fat storage.
Food can be handled with much more leveled sustenance & herbs or supplements used for the "kick"/"boost" category.

Try to write down a few daily routines. Include how much you slept, how easy it is to get to eat food food throughout day (sometimes life & work really might call for a shake to shoot down to maintain this balance when food can't be consumed). Jot down relative portion size and time you ate for sure.
Step by step you can start to eliminate variables, add as much control a possible. When you do that you narrow down just exactly what works for you.

Though everyone is different; here's tried and true (for virtually all of the different goals out there (muscle gain/fat loss/hardcore training etc)
>Meals frequently throughout day ( minimum 4, but variables to consider)
>Protein in every meal (unless it's an immediate post workout (though protein is soon needed therafter anyway)
>HEALTHY fat consumption (nuts/coconut oil/olive oil/flaxseed oil/ fish oil - or EAT fish - nothing better!)
>Soluble & Insoluble fiber in at least 3 meals (veggies best way)
>Low glycemic carbs (one's i mentioned are best - i am just starting to look into amaranth as well) *for a person trying to get leaner - heavy carbs and grains and cereals are really a no no
>drink TONS of water
>sleep! (nothing worse than too little sleep - that results in nothing but elevated cortisol - fat storage - and the dreaded catabolic state of burning through your own hard earned muscle (which is what drives metabolism/workouts and the leaner physique)

Step by step
Get back to me
Stay motivated!

2014-09-07 12:56 PM

in reply to: TJHammer

Subject: RE: Food and performance

Yes, I definitely think switching to alternatives (ie; sweet potatoes for regular) is a good idea (more flavorful too!). I've also been considering switching to a more regimented, smaller but more frequent meal plan. I currently eat breakfast, lunch and dinner, with snacks, but the dinner is typically quite large while the others are smaller. Remember, since I'm primarily interested in how I perform after eating with weight loss as a secondary goal, I've typically been OK with that model.

However, I've since come to realize something pretty simple: I feel better when I eat less in one sitting. Although this weekend has been a write-off (whenever my parents drop by it always is :-P ) I'm going to start with a smaller dinner tonight and try to keep more frequent meals going throughout the day next week and document my progress.

Eggs are tricky for me. I am not sure why, but they definitely never leave me feeling good. Often they lead to headaches and at the very best of times I get slight nausea. It doesn't really matter how they're prepared, either, so I'm guessing it's a combination of prior bad experiences, especially as a kid, and something in eggs that just doesn't work for me.

I am *extremely* wary of supplements. I should make that clear right away. It's not that I inherently distrust supplements, it's that I can find so much contradictory information on any given supplement that I've simply given up trying to distinguish truth from reality. I avoid supplements and instead focus on foods.

I'll start paying a lot of attention this week to what I eat and how it works, and I'll post preliminary results as soon as I can. Thanks for the help so far!

Mike

2014-09-12 9:05 PM

in reply to: mstachowsky

Subject: RE: Food and performance

So the results are in, and in hindsight, they were pretty obvious:

1) Eating just about anything causes a slight dip in my energy levels and makes it very hard to do a workout immediately after. I had mistakenly believed that, since there were some rare foods that didn't have much of a dip, there must be some types of food that 'work' and others that 'don't".

2) Each food takes a while to get me up to running/biking speed. It takes longer for some foods than others. For whatever reason, special-K and dates happened to be the fastest to digest or whatever it was. However, unless it's something really not workout worthy like cheesecake, it typically takes only 30 minutes or so for that initial dip to wear off.

3) The size of the meal matters not only in terms of how long the dip lasts, but how intense the dip is. There are some things I can eat a lot of (like salads, "light foods", as it were) that don't do this much, but in general even relatively healthy options like quinoa have to be limited. Again, this should have been obvious from the get-go but it took a while for it to sink in.

4) Strangely, the dip is stronger if the food is hot - warm quinoa with vegetables took me longer to get over than when it was cooled and turned into a salad, despite being the same thing.

5) There are definitely some foods that don't work for my workouts even after the 30 minutes. Eggs are a top contender but that's probably due to some kind of sensitivity or just bad experiences. Sugary cereals and fats are another, but then I knew that already :-P .

6) Absolutely NONE of the above has much scientific merit, but it did seem to establish a pattern.

So, long story short: eat smaller, more frequent meals and wait long enough.

2014-09-13 9:04 AM

in reply to: mstachowsky

538

Brooklyn, New York

Subject: RE: Food and performance

Couple of other considerations as you move along...

Does diabetes run in your family?
Have you gotten checked just to make sure you aren't pre-diabetic. The "dip" issue is something to still understand. Nothing is perfect, nothing is ideal, but if you can still feel a see-saw reaction despite a weeks worth of smaller frequent meals of better glycemic effect & still get lulls or "dips", you may want to assure yourself of insulin behavior.

If all is good to go, then a logical next step is developing a further plan that estimates your caloric necessities and then get more specific on total calories per meal and each meal's specific pro/carb/fat ratios. That next step can help improve energy levels and how the body reacts on a meal by meal basis.
A "dip" as you might be describing it may result simply from too many calories or too many carbs alltogether. Sometimes you can get more energy out of healthy fats like nuts than a carb-laden meal. Remember that foods' impact on blood glycogen levels has A LOT to do with how they make you feel. Of course something like cereal & dates make energy levels boost quickly without much "dip" because they cause insulin spikes because they are high on that glycemic index. Make a goal day by day to make your blood glycogen levels as straight a line as possible....making the only two real drops off from a night's sleep & a workout.

Forgot to ask your age.....and appx amount of sleep daily.
Keep it up. Nutrition an exact science on an individual basis. Don't let it overwhelm you, you'll transform yourself into a machine

2014-09-13 4:31 PM

in reply to: TJHammer

Subject: RE: Food and performance

My mother is apparently borderline but she has been for a few years now. Other than that no diabetes. I'm 27 and tend to get adequate sleep. My job is nice since it starts around 8:30 or 9:00 in the morning, so I usually can sleep a full 8 hours.

I wonder: what is the goal of getting different carb/protein/fat ratios in a meal?

2014-09-13 8:46 PM

in reply to: mstachowsky

538

Brooklyn, New York

Subject: RE: Food and performance

Originally posted by mstachowsky

My mother is apparently borderline but she has been for a few years now. Other than that no diabetes. I'm 27 and tend to get adequate sleep. My job is nice since it starts around 8:30 or 9:00 in the morning, so I usually can sleep a full 8 hours.

I wonder: what is the goal of getting different carb/protein/fat ratios in a meal?

Good to hear on the diabetes front, and good news your mom is in control of the borderline condition. Every meal won't always warrant the same necessities. For instance, after most workouts, carb and electrolyte replenishment of more importance. Within hour of that, protein very necessary for muscle maintenance &/or growth/ development. First meal of the day can be higher in carbs since a full night's sleep amounts to a fast - so blood sugar is low. If last meal of the day is later on & close to sleep, safer to be higher in protein for overnight (extra carbs, especially heavy ones, will just sit and likely store as fat overnight). Those few good general rules....then again....body type and exercise frequency & intensity play a huge role as well.