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2014-09-01 12:11 PM

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Subject: Splurging for LT Testing
I think I am going to bite the bullet and go in for LT testing. I really want to nail down my correct HR Zones prior to my IM training plan taking effect. A couple of questions, what is the difference between LT testing and VO2 Max testing? What can I expect when I go to the appointment? Those of you that have done this, was it helpful? Worth the money? Thanks in advance!


2014-09-01 12:25 PM
in reply to: KatieLimb

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
I wouldn't bother with LT testing unless you plan to follow up the testing every two to three months and even then, IME field testing is just as valuable to set training zones. Further, unless (and sometimes even when) the testing is conducted by someone with a great deal of experience, the results can be flawed and not provide the insight that you are looking for. Finally, it will be useful to test both the bike and run (and not on the same day) so assuming testing bike and run every three months, you're looking at a fair amount of money for testing that might be useful.

Having said that:

Lactate testing

Generally done as a ramp test, often in conjunction with VO2max testing. Depending on the protocol, you will ride at a certain power or run at a certain pace for a length of time (say three minutes) blood will be drawn and you will increase power/pace. This will continue until there is a clear deflection or exhaustion, depending on the type of test. There are several different points which will typically be given to you based on the graph of blood lactate, HR and power/pace.

VO2max testing

Often done in a similar manner (to exhaustion) and wearing a mask. This will measure O2/CO2 exchange through the test and provide you with your VO2max in mL/kg(min) as well as power/pace and HR when it occurs. If combined with lactate testing, you may also get VO2 numbers for the points on the lactate testing as well. Generally will also give you an RER which is a measure of how you metabolize different substrates and various intensities.

If you get the testing done, you want it done with lab grade equipment and by someone with lots of experience. Also, for VO2max, ask how the equipment will be calibrated - if they tell you it is self calibrating or doesn't need calibration, walk away.

Shane

2014-09-01 12:34 PM
in reply to: KatieLimb

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by KatieLimb

I think I am going to bite the bullet and go in for LT testing. I really want to nail down my correct HR Zones prior to my IM training plan taking effect. A couple of questions, what is the difference between LT testing and VO2 Max testing? What can I expect when I go to the appointment? Those of you that have done this, was it helpful? Worth the money? Thanks in advance!


I worked in my schools human performance lab and we did lots of lactate testing. Usually it was for research so the subjects were never really charged, but depending on who and where you go it can get expensive. We very rarely had people come in for their own information. I would first check to see if any schools around you are doing any of this testing and need subjects (you might even get paid). If all you want is to setup your HR zones then I suggest shying away from LT testing, while it is the most accurate, in the long run it doesn't really matter that much. LT is the best predictor of race performance (based on power output), whereas VO2 max is of cardio fitness. A simple way to get similar data for HR zone is to use a 10k performance.

Keep in mind that doing this type of testing in a race environment will typically give you a bit higher numbers (pace, HR, etc) since a race environment usually evokes slightly higher levels.
2014-09-01 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
I agree in that you could do LT testing at home. Take a look at this page: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=... It has a lot of great info on how you can do this at home and probably get better results since it's in the real world. I try to do these 1-2 times a year but they tend to be pretty stable. You just need to make sure you're rested and give it 100%. I tried when I my legs were tired/sore and I was 10bpm lower than last year. I threw that test out and retested.

I also thought about getting V02Max done but just for something for me to know what my potential is in life. It's just something I'd like to know for the hell of it but it wouldn't change my training at all because I don't think there any training based off V02MAx (unless I can't find it), as LT and LTHR is more important. It's about $75 at the local university here but since it's just an FYI thing for me, I haven't made an appointment yet.

Edited by Blastman 2014-09-01 1:51 PM
2014-09-01 5:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by KatieLimb

I think I am going to bite the bullet and go in for LT testing. I really want to nail down my correct HR Zones prior to my IM training plan taking effect. A couple of questions, what is the difference between LT testing and VO2 Max testing? What can I expect when I go to the appointment? Those of you that have done this, was it helpful? Worth the money? Thanks in advance!


This depends on a few things.

a) How much does it cost ?

b) As Shane mentionned, the quality of the test equipment is very important. Lab grade equipment, properly calibrated is much different than the guy with a $200 lactate meter.

c) Who will interpret the results. There is some very valuable information that a knowledgeable person can use to tailor a training program based on your results.

If properly done, the tests will show your VO2max and ability to hold a large % of VOmax for a long period of time. If one is abnormal relative to the other, your coach may change the plan. It will tell you exactly where your roof and where your ceiling is.

The profile/shape of your lactate curve may have your coach change your training plan.

If they measure RER during the VO2max test it may provide insight into your caloric needs, whether you use fat or carbohydrates. This is useful information in establishing a nutrition plan and possibly changing diet.

There is useful information in Lactate and VO2 testing. But only if it's properly interpreted and used to adjust your training.

There is other useful information in properly done tests.

If it's simply to set your training zones, do a 10km race.
If there isn't someone competent to analyze the results, save the money.
If it's not done with the right equipment/protocols, save the money.

I had it done, but I am the biggest data geek alive.

Is it worth it ? Depends on how much they charge, the quality of the data and your ability to interpret the results.


Edited by marcag 2014-09-01 6:03 PM
2014-09-02 7:52 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by KatieLimb

I think I am going to bite the bullet and go in for LT testing. I really want to nail down my correct HR Zones prior to my IM training plan taking effect. A couple of questions, what is the difference between LT testing and VO2 Max testing? What can I expect when I go to the appointment? Those of you that have done this, was it helpful? Worth the money? Thanks in advance!


I worked in my schools human performance lab and we did lots of lactate testing. Usually it was for research so the subjects were never really charged, but depending on who and where you go it can get expensive. We very rarely had people come in for their own information. I would first check to see if any schools around you are doing any of this testing and need subjects (you might even get paid). If all you want is to setup your HR zones then I suggest shying away from LT testing, while it is the most accurate, in the long run it doesn't really matter that much. LT is the best predictor of race performance (based on power output), whereas VO2 max is of cardio fitness. A simple way to get similar data for HR zone is to use a 10k performance.

Keep in mind that doing this type of testing in a race environment will typically give you a bit higher numbers (pace, HR, etc) since a race environment usually evokes slightly higher levels.


I had mine done at a University study last summer. They were testing the performance of a sports drink on endurance athletes. Everyone needed a record of there training over a number of years to qualify, and we had to go in several times for testing. It was neat, they paid me but in the end knowing those numbers has not changed my training at all. Last summers training was actually off because I had to give up basically 5 Saturday mornings to do the testing.



2014-09-03 2:26 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by KatieLimb

I think I am going to bite the bullet and go in for LT testing. I really want to nail down my correct HR Zones prior to my IM training plan taking effect. A couple of questions, what is the difference between LT testing and VO2 Max testing? What can I expect when I go to the appointment? Those of you that have done this, was it helpful? Worth the money? Thanks in advance!


This depends on a few things.

a) How much does it cost ?

b) As Shane mentionned, the quality of the test equipment is very important. Lab grade equipment, properly calibrated is much different than the guy with a $200 lactate meter.



Don't confuse VO2 metabolic carts with "home" lactate meters.

Plenty of labs use "portable" lactate meters with good results. I was just at Boulder Center for Sports Medicine talking to Robert Pickles and Adam St. Pierre, the two primary testers for both their LT and Vo2 tests. Both confirmed that a home lactate meter like the lactate scout works just fine. At lactate levels < 2.0 they may be 10-20% off from their high quality hospital grade $15,000 machine they use with $500/mo maintenance costs...but anything over 2.0 reads well on a portable machine.

Vo2 testing is completely different however, and I would never buy a $200 or even $1000 metabolic cart for home Vo2 testing as it's simply not accurate. Go for the university or hospital lab setting for those. If they didn't use a 3L calibration syringe, they don't have the right equipment.
2014-09-03 2:49 PM
in reply to: KatieLimb

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing

I'd suggest listening to the coaches that post here and skip the testing that costs you money and do it yourself. I understand it seems cool and would help us train better.

You are training for an IM which means you have done this for awhile. Can't you tell when you are riding or running in different zones by how you feel?  When training I can tell when my power has gone up or down from what my zones are set. Trusting yourself to test well and know when you need to test again are key. If you haven't tested much it can take some folks a few tests to learn to test well.

Do you train by pace or by HR?  After training with HR for a number of years, I found both bike and run training by paced off testing was better for me plus over time I got tired of fumbling with the HR strap and trying to get it to pick up.

 

2014-09-03 8:39 PM
in reply to: #5045676

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
All great responses. I think I'll wait on it. I have just barely started training by HR in the past few months, and have struggled to nail them down exactly. In the past I have always just run at what felt comfortable, not really caring about pace or HR.
2014-09-04 7:30 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by KatieLimb

All great responses. I think I'll wait on it. I have just barely started training by HR in the past few months, and have struggled to nail them down exactly. In the past I have always just run at what felt comfortable, not really caring about pace or HR.


You have chosen wisely. If you must know your zones, do a 30 minute field test on your own.

I was stubborn. I wanted to see how "off" my numbers from my field test would be. So I took the blood test. It was off by 2 beats. Not worth the $85 test at the time. But glad to know that I will save $85 each time I want to retest.
2014-09-04 7:32 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing

Originally posted by KatieLimb All great responses. I think I'll wait on it. I have just barely started training by HR in the past few months, and have struggled to nail them down exactly. In the past I have always just run at what felt comfortable, not really caring about pace or HR.

Stop struggling and do the field test(s) referenced in the BT article linked above in another post:

"Take a look at this page: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=... "



2014-09-04 7:58 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

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2014-09-04 11:27 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing

Just to play the counter argument, I think that field testing is largely a hot mess. Field tests are typically a correlation of a correlation the the LT. Instead of measuring respiration or a hard 20 minute effort that will vary widely to what your actual LT is, I would suggest just going straight to the source and find out your LT with some blood. Other indicators work fine for most people, just keep in mind that power, pace and speed are all performance indicators, not body indicators. A medical or science mind and a engineer's mind will never get along on this one, so know which one you are before you frustrate the heck out of yourself.

2014-09-04 12:20 PM
in reply to: tjfry

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by tjfry

Just to play the counter argument, I think that field testing is largely a hot mess. Field tests are typically a correlation of a correlation the the LT. Instead of measuring respiration or a hard 20 minute effort that will vary widely to what your actual LT is, I would suggest just going straight to the source and find out your LT with some blood. Other indicators work fine for most people, just keep in mind that power, pace and speed are all performance indicators, not body indicators. A medical or science mind and a engineer's mind will never get along on this one, so know which one you are before you frustrate the heck out of yourself.




Great advice here!
2014-09-04 12:45 PM
in reply to: KatieLimb


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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by KatieLimb

All great responses. I think I'll wait on it. I have just barely started training by HR in the past few months, and have struggled to nail them down exactly. In the past I have always just run at what felt comfortable, not really caring about pace or HR.


As mentioned above, if you pay for the LT test you'll have to follow up every couple of months to make the results more meaningful. FWIW if you're just starting out with HR you will notice fluctuations in your HR zones both from change in fitness and "how well you perform the test."

I do the @ home tests and it took a few times of doing the SAME test and being able to actually find what effort i could hold for a certain time to make the test a useful and accurate as possible.

Wait, enjoy playing with your HRM and do it yourself! Best of luck.
2014-09-04 4:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by marcag


Don't confuse VO2 metabolic carts with "home" lactate meters.

Plenty of labs use "portable" lactate meters with good results. I was just at Boulder Center for Sports Medicine talking to Robert Pickles and Adam St. Pierre, the two primary testers for both their LT and Vo2 tests. Both confirmed that a home lactate meter like the lactate scout works just fine. At lactate levels < 2.0 they may be 10-20% off from their high quality hospital grade $15,000 machine they use with $500/mo maintenance costs...but anything over 2.0 reads well on a portable machine.

Vo2 testing is completely different however, and I would never buy a $200 or even $1000 metabolic cart for home Vo2 testing as it's simply not accurate. Go for the university or hospital lab setting for those. If they didn't use a 3L calibration syringe, they don't have the right equipment.



I was referring to the handheld unit. I had one and could not get consistent results. Then again, doing yourself while on the bike may have been a source of error. I would have to jump off, wash hands, measure, jump on...all fast enough to not skew results.

When I did it in a lab, the technician with clean, prik, and use a little glass thingy, walk it over to a big honkin machine and get much cleaner results.



Edited by marcag 2014-09-04 4:15 PM


2014-09-04 11:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by marcag

I was referring to the handheld unit. I had one and could not get consistent results. Then again, doing yourself while on the bike may have been a source of error. I would have to jump off, wash hands, measure, jump on...all fast enough to not skew results.

When I did it in a lab, the technician with clean, prik, and use a little glass thingy, walk it over to a big honkin machine and get much cleaner results.




Yeah, sounds like "user error" rather than machine error. Hopefully if you're testing others you've got a system that's allowing you to get reliable samples I've tested myself before and I don't jump off & wash, I keep cycling, wipe off with a new alcohol wipe, , wipe off hte drop of blood, test the next one and keep going. It only gets hard when I get to the 2nd to last & last stage.

One source of error is not wiping off the first drop of blood, or having to "milk" the finger to get a drop to form.

A tech in the lab has the advantage of experience as well...probabaly has done thousands of samples where you and I maybe have only done hundreds. Experience matters. Nevertheless, the hadnheld units are fairly accurate especially above 2.0

Edited by AdventureBear 2014-09-04 11:53 PM
2014-09-05 5:49 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Yeah, sounds like "user error" rather than machine error. Hopefully if you're testing others you've got a system that's allowing you to get reliable samples I've tested myself before and I don't jump off & wash, I keep cycling, wipe off with a new alcohol wipe, , wipe off hte drop of blood, test the next one and keep going. It only gets hard when I get to the 2nd to last & last stage.

One source of error is not wiping off the first drop of blood, or having to "milk" the finger to get a drop to form.

A tech in the lab has the advantage of experience as well...probabaly has done thousands of samples where you and I maybe have only done hundreds. Experience matters. Nevertheless, the hadnheld units are fairly accurate especially above 2.0


I will have to try the alcohol wipe trick. I tried testing without washing or alcohol, first drop and it was a disaster. My LT was 100 watts :-)
I did do better when trying to confirm I was below MLSS with a constant level over time at a fixed power level. I could just never get a nice lactate curve.
So I have tested my CP using 3/30, 5/20 tests and then confirm my lactate is steady slightly under CP. These are the fun things you can do in a lab.
I have never tested someone else. I do this for fun and learning. Nothing more fun that pulling blood while suffering on a trainer.




2014-09-05 2:21 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Splurging for LT Testing
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Yeah, sounds like "user error" rather than machine error. Hopefully if you're testing others you've got a system that's allowing you to get reliable samples I've tested myself before and I don't jump off & wash, I keep cycling, wipe off with a new alcohol wipe, , wipe off hte drop of blood, test the next one and keep going. It only gets hard when I get to the 2nd to last & last stage.

One source of error is not wiping off the first drop of blood, or having to "milk" the finger to get a drop to form.

A tech in the lab has the advantage of experience as well...probabaly has done thousands of samples where you and I maybe have only done hundreds. Experience matters. Nevertheless, the hadnheld units are fairly accurate especially above 2.0


I will have to try the alcohol wipe trick. I tried testing without washing or alcohol, first drop and it was a disaster. My LT was 100 watts :-)
I did do better when trying to confirm I was below MLSS with a constant level over time at a fixed power level. I could just never get a nice lactate curve.
So I have tested my CP using 3/30, 5/20 tests and then confirm my lactate is steady slightly under CP. These are the fun things you can do in a lab.
I have never tested someone else. I do this for fun and learning. Nothing more fun that pulling blood while suffering on a trainer.







The first drop is old blood, filled with lactate since it's not in circulation. I get calls from paramedics testing field lactates all the time and don't beleive the number unless it's a venous draw as opposed to a capillary stick. You need a drop that's quickly growing, wipe it off and test the next drop.
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