Swim Times Slowing Dramatically (Page 2)

Originally posted by mehaner

they were pool swim races...hard to mismeasure that.

Originally posted by jennifer_runs

I just read all of the posts. There seems to be some information missing because it doesn't add up.

Since you swim with a coach, that's the person you should be asking because he/she knows the details of your swimming.

Originally posted by erinrockrun



I have spoken with coaches already. I would be happy to provide the missing information that doesn't add up. What more would you like to know?

I apologize if this is not the appropriate subject matter for this forum. I was just really hoping someone might be able to help. Thanks.

Originally posted by AdventureBear

I keep checking this post every day. This subject really pains me! To slow down after focusing on swimming?

it's really easy to keep tabs on whether or not your training is leading to better fitness & overall speeds, that to see a 30 sec/100m drop from one race to a comparable race is like discovering that your business partner has been embezzling money!

What are your base paces based on? Have those been getting better over time and it was just the race that was worse?

The 1000 yards of drills & warmup...can you empirically measure how those are improving your subsequent set? are you swimming within your "green zone" of stroke length at any speed you choose? Do you ahve a range of speeds and how do those correlat with your efforts?

I'm dying for followup on this and what your thoughts are on the feedback provided so far.

Originally posted by zedzded



It's impossible to help without any videos of your swimming. Don't over think why you've slowed down, the fact is you're slow, your technique probably needs work, stick up a video, there are a lot of decent swimmers in here that will be able to spot your technique flaws straight away. And there are lots of specific drills we can recommend to address each and every flaw in your technique.

Originally posted by erinrockrun



Thanks, I have a date with a Go-Pro camera next Weds.

Originally posted by AdventureBear

I wonder if adding some more yardage might help.

Originally posted by zedzded





No it won't. Your conditioning will improve, but you will still be swimming with a flawed technique and your times won't vastly increase until you address the technique issues. Once people have identified whats going on, it will take time to fix everything up, so be patient

Originally posted by AdventureBear


Don't quote me on that...that was her comment. More yards will most dEFINATELY not help.

Originally posted by erinrockrun
The drills are always at the beginning of my workout, during the warm-up. They typically include one-arm, catch-up, fist, fingertip, and kicking on each side or some combo of the above. I do not count my strokes as much as I should but they are usually around 23 per 25 yards. I don't really have a range of speeds unless you count slow and slower :-)

Originally posted by zedzded



Sorry I stuffed up my quotes, I'll edit my post!

Originally posted by erinrockrun 

On the feedback so far, I think it's apparent that there is definitely an issue with my technique. Although, the Olympic trial qualifier who swam 15k a day makes me feel like maybe I am not swimming enough. I wonder if adding some more yardage might help. I also have slacked off on the strength training this summer to focus on HIM training.

Originally posted by gsmacleod

I'm curious about the two 400's - were they both in the pool and in conditions where you were able to swim hard throughout?

Also, what do you swim an all out 100 in?

Shane

Originally posted by erinrockrun

Yes, they were both in a pool and I avoided any traffic. The first one (7:06) was 400 yards in a 25 yard pool and the second one was 400 meters in a 25m pool, which would transfer to about 9:00 for 400 yards.

I did a time trial yesterday and my fastest 100y was 2:13. The onext two were 2:16 and 2:17. This again caused frustration, as I was able to hold about a 2:00 pace for an hour just a couple months after learning to swim freestyle in 2012.

Originally posted by k9car363

I am the one who is guilty of qualifying for an Olympic Trial.  Swimming more yards per day or week is absolutely useless if your technique is poor.  If we assume that the times you have cited are correct and there is indeed a fairly significant slowdown then either training volume or stroke technique are the most likely reasons.  My question is when was the last time you actually had a coach look at your stroke?  I don't just mean swim in a workout with the coach on deck, I mean having the coach focus on you and your technique (yes that is part of a coaches job and unfortunately an increasing number of coaches don't seem to do that anymore).  I would not expect significant improvement in your time at a 10,000/week training volume, however that is more than sufficient to not have a drop-off.  That leads me to believe your technique is suffering.  You mentioned that you gave 110% in your last TT attempt.  That implies to me that you were attempting to "beat the water into submission."  Stated another way, your technique was likely not as efficient as it could be.  If your coach cannot identify why you are losing speed then quite simply, you need to find a new coach.

Originally posted by snappingt

Erin,

Has your training for the bike and run increased and do you swim at the beginning of the day or at the end of the day?

Best regards,

Tim

Originally posted by erinrockrun

I don't even feel the fluidity that I used to. It does seem like I'm "beating the water."

I did make an appointment with a friend who is a post-collegiate swimmer and was just 1st in her division in the swim at IMLou. She's going to spend an hour in the pool with me working on technique and recording with a Go-Pro. I'm hoping she might be able to tweak my form and get me moving in the right direction. Do you think that could help?

I guess I've been exceptionally frustrated because my A race, Augusta, is in two weeks. In 2012, I did it as my first half on about 3-4k weekly average and swam 30:00 flat. Granted, it's current-aided, but ti was still enough to put me in about the top 25-30% of my division. I'm hoping this year I can get within 10 minutes of that.

Originally posted by snappingt

Erin,

I've seen it frequently when training is at the peak for the bike and run the swim can suffer fairly dramatically. Although, your description of your slow down is a lot more severe than any athlete I've ever seen. Given that much of a slow down I wouldn't pin it on any one issue. It's probably a whole range of issues from changes in technique to just overall general fatigue. In my experience, the swim shows over training stress the earliest compared to the bike and run. It's kind of the "canary in the coal mine." When you start your taper for the bike and run you should start to see a fairly substantial improvement in your swim times. But at the end of the day 10k a week for a HIM is not a huge volume of swim training and shouldn't be impacting your swimming negatively.

When you joined the masters team were the workouts with the team dramatically different from what you had done previously. I know you increased your volume by about 50%, but did the focus of the practices shift? Also, how did the coach suggest you change your stroke? Do you have a coach that is working with you on the bike and run? If yes, are the swim coach and your triathlon coach on the same page in terms of your training? Has your diet changed significantly over the past year? Do you weigh the same when you were going faster? And have you been injured or undergone any surgeries since you've been slowing down?

Best regards,

Tim

Tim, the Master's coach pointed out hand entry pretty consistently, but that was about the only main critique. The practices stay the same whether I'm in or out of Masters. The coach emails them to me during the times of year when I can not afford Masters (I've been on and off since 2012.) When I'm not at Master's, I go to a coached stroke improvement class. That coach's main critique is that I need to get back to bilateral breathing. I have gotten to comfortable breathing solely on my left. The triathlon and swim coaches all provide pretty similar workouts, with drill-focused warm-ups and main sets of varying intervals, usually of 3-4k.Diet and weight are the same, although I have backed off strength training during these last few months. No injuries, knock on wood!

Originally posted by JoelO

Erin,

Do you have a sense of whether your stroke cadence has changed?  If it has slowed, then, absent technique/stream-line improvement, you're going to slow down.  If it has stayed the same or sped up, then you have technique/stream-line issues.  Btw, I've found the Finis Tempo Trainer to be a handy tool for monitoring and working on stroke cadence.  Ideally, you'll want to speed up your cadence has long as technique doesn't suffer.

Are you a lot faster with the pull buoy?  If you are, then I would guess you've got balance/drag issues that need to be worked on.  If your hips are dragging, you could be working hard without going faster. Make sure you keep your head neutral in the water...if it goes up, the hips drop...not good.  Try this...go into a floating position and engage your core so your legs come up.  Note your head position when you're doing this.  If you're carrying your head higher than this while you're swimming you're hips will be dropping and you've just created more drag...not good.

I can't remember if you said how many strokes it takes you to go 25 yards.  Ideally, you want that number less than 20..higher than that would indicate your catch and pull need some work.  Try this (we did it the other night in class)...6x50 and drop a stroke on each 50.  On the first 50 get an average for the number of strokes it takes for each 25...say its 22.  On the next 50 you'll want to drop the average per 25 down to 21...20 on the next 50, etc....  To me, this set gets me to focus on 1) staying streamlined and 2) getting the most distance out of each stroke.

Couple more things..

If your kick has gotten too wide its going to create additional drag...keep it fairly tight. 

If you over-rotate to breathe you'll end up scissor-kicking...more drag.

Hopefully, you'll find a nugget in here that's helpful.  When post a video, the coaches and swim experts on this site can give you more specific analysis and tips.

Joel