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2014-09-12 11:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
One other tool you can use. Go to your local LBS and ask for a discarded bike tube. Cut it up so that it's long enough to fit around your ankles with a knot in it. I use it 2 ways.

1. Use it when you do pull sets with your buoy to make sure your legs stay close together.

2. Use it by itself and do a series of 25 repeats. This will be hard to do at first. If you can do a 25 without your legs dropping too much you've made progress on your stream-line and balance in the water. Experiment with the floating drill I mentioned earlier before you do the band-only work. I found that I can float my legs pretty easily by engaging my core but if I spend too much time in the recovery phase (arms out of the water) or if I press down on the water at all when establishing the catch my legs will drop.


2014-09-14 7:07 AM
in reply to: JoelO

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Thanks, I will give that a try.

I did make a discovery yesterday. I was doing 15 X 100 as a main set (part of a brick.) I did the middle 5 on my weak side, and they were significantly faster than my strong side. (1:58 compared to 2:15.) I also did the last 5 bilateral breathing, and they fell in the middle (2:07-2:10.) I was shocked, as I always feel like I'm awkwardly thrashing the water on my weak side, and have therefore been avoiding it. But now, I'm not sure what to do with this info. Concentrate on my weak side for a while?
2014-09-14 3:12 PM
in reply to: erinrockrun

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by erinrockrun

Thanks, I will give that a try.

I did make a discovery yesterday. I was doing 15 X 100 as a main set (part of a brick.) I did the middle 5 on my weak side, and they were significantly faster than my strong side. (1:58 compared to 2:15.) I also did the last 5 bilateral breathing, and they fell in the middle (2:07-2:10.) I was shocked, as I always feel like I'm awkwardly thrashing the water on my weak side, and have therefore been avoiding it. But now, I'm not sure what to do with this info. Concentrate on my weak side for a while?


Try to enhance your awareness of what's different when you breath to the "weak" side, then try identify if you are or are not doing the same thing on the "strong" side.

Building your "kinesthetic awareness" is a prerequisite for making lasting changes and improvements.

Cool discovery
2014-09-14 8:26 PM
in reply to: erinrockrun


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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by erinrockrun

Thanks, I will give that a try.

I did make a discovery yesterday. I was doing 15 X 100 as a main set (part of a brick.) I did the middle 5 on my weak side, and they were significantly faster than my strong side. (1:58 compared to 2:15.) I also did the last 5 bilateral breathing, and they fell in the middle (2:07-2:10.) I was shocked, as I always feel like I'm awkwardly thrashing the water on my weak side, and have therefore been avoiding it. But now, I'm not sure what to do with this info. Concentrate on my weak side for a while?


You are quicker in the water if you don't breathe, but obviously you need to. So the less you breathe the quicker you'll go, therefore bilateral is better than breathing every 2 strokes, not only for speed, but also for technique - your stroke will be more symmetrical. But perhaps it might be an idea to simplify your swimming considering your issues and the level you're at. You need some consistency, mixing up your breathing is just going to mess with your stroke and is probably superfluous at this stage. You're probably better off concentrating on the 2 or 3 major problems with your stroke. I'd guess there are also lots of minor issues with your stroke, could be 20+, don't worry about these, get the main problems sorted out first. I have a friend in a similar boat to you, she's had her swimming assessed by a swimming lab, videos, a report given to her, drills recommended etc etc very thorough and detailed. Except she now is overloaded with information regarding her technique, she's working on her kick, her body rotation, her breathing, her catch and pull and is getting nowhere. I've suggested to forget everything else and just work on her catch and pull, like a lot of swimmers she drops her elbow, no high elbow catch. It will be too confusing for her, trying to concentrate on this while trying to fix her kick and work on body rotation. Once she's got this sorted, she can move onto her kick and work on that. You need to go back to basics, don't have too many whacky/complicated drills. Get the basics sorted first.
2014-09-15 5:22 PM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by zedzded

Originally posted by erinrockrun

Thanks, I will give that a try.

I did make a discovery yesterday. I was doing 15 X 100 as a main set (part of a brick.) I did the middle 5 on my weak side, and they were significantly faster than my strong side. (1:58 compared to 2:15.) I also did the last 5 bilateral breathing, and they fell in the middle (2:07-2:10.) I was shocked, as I always feel like I'm awkwardly thrashing the water on my weak side, and have therefore been avoiding it. But now, I'm not sure what to do with this info. Concentrate on my weak side for a while?


You are quicker in the water if you don't breathe, but obviously you need to. So the less you breathe the quicker you'll go, therefore bilateral is better than breathing every 2 strokes, not only for speed, but also for technique - your stroke will be more symmetrical.


But how do you explain why she is fastest on her "weak" side (not bilateral)?

Erin- it sounds like that's your strong side.
2014-09-15 8:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by jennifer_runs

Originally posted by zedzded

Originally posted by erinrockrun

Thanks, I will give that a try.

I did make a discovery yesterday. I was doing 15 X 100 as a main set (part of a brick.) I did the middle 5 on my weak side, and they were significantly faster than my strong side. (1:58 compared to 2:15.) I also did the last 5 bilateral breathing, and they fell in the middle (2:07-2:10.) I was shocked, as I always feel like I'm awkwardly thrashing the water on my weak side, and have therefore been avoiding it. But now, I'm not sure what to do with this info. Concentrate on my weak side for a while?


You are quicker in the water if you don't breathe, but obviously you need to. So the less you breathe the quicker you'll go, therefore bilateral is better than breathing every 2 strokes, not only for speed, but also for technique - your stroke will be more symmetrical.


But how do you explain why she is fastest on her "weak" side (not bilateral)?

Erin- it sounds like that's your strong side.


A lot of swimmers that breathe on the same side, don't swim symmetrically i.e left and right arms doing the same thing. Breathing may feel more comfortable on one side, but that doesn't mean that your arm is doing the right thing. I vary between bilateral and breathing the same side, but I used to have a problem when breathing on the same side where I'd hold my breath, then breathe out and breathe in all in one motion, as opposed to breathing out under water. So this caused an issue with my body position, my kick, my stroke, head coming out of the water for too long etc etc So although this was my "strong" side, my stroke was a mess when I breathed. My other arm was fine.

Edited by zedzded 2014-09-15 8:54 PM


2014-09-16 3:20 PM
in reply to: zedzded


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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

I'm guessing that most triathlete swimmers have a speed differential in their breath R vs breath L, even if they think they don't.

 

I've asked several folks in my triclub if they were even, and they all told me they were, yet when the ondeck coach told us to do 200yd intervals, one R and on L, every last person in the 2 lanes around me was significantly slower on one side, even if they breathed bilaterally in training. (Me included - I trained equally R vs L for years and yet I still am 7-10sec/100 stronger on the side I started training on, even though I"ve done equal yardage on both sides for the last few years.)

 

If it's a huge gap like 15sec/100+, ok, probably worth looking at to make sure you're not all imbalanced, but otherwise, prob not so unusual. You won't know until you really test it.

2014-09-17 4:53 PM
in reply to: max.bennett

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
OK, I was able to get a short video. We didn't get anything underwater, but if anyone can give me any tips based on this it would be much appreciated:

2014-09-17 5:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
I have not gotten underwater analysis but I did get a short video from a friend. All advice appreciated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHKiJk0CdU4&feature=youtu.be

Edited by erinrockrun 2014-09-17 6:12 PM
2014-09-17 5:55 PM
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Edited by erinrockrun 2014-09-17 6:00 PM
2014-09-17 9:20 PM
in reply to: erinrockrun

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by erinrockrun

I have not gotten underwater analysis but I did get a short video from a friend. All advice appreciated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHKiJk0CdU4&feature=youtu.be


Thanks for posting, it's hard with the resolution I'm getting, but the first thing I notice is lots of leg movement for not a lot of benefit. You said you're faster with a pull buoy, but I would bet you're also faster without a pull buoy if you simply stop kicking.

Swimming should be initiated from the core and the legs can respond to that in order to get synchronized with body movement. Once you feel how the legs respond to hip movement if you want, you can initiate with the leg and have your rotation be fully synchronized and timed with lead arm entry into the water for streamlining.

Basically I see your body working as a front half and a back half and not unified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnrSr9tYCko


2014-09-18 1:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

There's a few things going on as adventure bear says - your kick, I couldn't see any bubbles, so could be you're not breathing out underwater - a big no no. Your hands are 'flaring' up and acting as a brake, especially your left, look at 0.06 seconds. This is an old video of me, you can see my right hand doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjLps9C4H1o




also your catch and pull, you're dropping your elbow.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g267/jaimie072/Untitled_zps04b9e8...

Your arm is almost straight

It should be more like this

http://stokereport.com/files/vdk-catch.jpg

It can be quite a tricky thing to get the hang of and for someone of your ability it would probably be worth your while getting some one on one coaching.



Edited by zedzded 2014-09-18 1:35 AM
2014-09-18 10:59 AM
in reply to: erinrockrun

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

Originally posted by erinrockrun I have not gotten underwater analysis but I did get a short video from a friend. All advice appreciated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHKiJk0CdU4&feature=youtu.be

 

You have no pull. Try pulling a little deeper and keep your hand under elbow. Your arms are just slipping through the water and not causing any real acceleration.

 

 

2014-09-18 5:11 PM
in reply to: tjfry


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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by erinrockrun I have not gotten underwater analysis but I did get a short video from a friend. All advice appreciated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHKiJk0CdU4&feature=youtu.be

 

You have no pull. Try pulling a little deeper and keep your hand under elbow. Your arms are just slipping through the water and not causing any real acceleration.

 

 




Yeah you really need to get help with this I don't think you can figure this out on your own. It's a very different way of swimming.
2014-09-18 5:51 PM
in reply to: erinrockrun

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

I'm seeing the same thing everyone else said. 

Kick...as Suzanne mentioned, it looks like it's not coordinated with your stroke and does little more than keep your hips up.  Look at how Sun Yang flicks the opposite leg to drive his core rotation when he extends.  It's really noticeable on the right arm/left leg portion.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o   Suzanne's link to Terry's instructional video demonstates much of the same thing along with some helpful instructions.

Catch/pull...I see what tjfry is saying when he says your hand is slipping through the water.  You're not getting much propulsion from your pull.  Part of the reason is you're not intiating the catch properly.  If you look at your stroke frame by frame, you'll see that you're just pressing down on the water for the 1st third of your stroke.  Go back to the Sun Yang video...right after he reaches full extension, notice how quickly he drops his hand (while keeping his elbow up).  From that position, he can actually start the propulsive phase of his stroke out in front of him.  I would get a pull buoy (so you can concentrate on this and not worry about kicking) and work/experiment with forming your catch earlier.  The "reach over a barrel visual" might work for you...you want to feel water pressure on your hand and forearm if you're initiating the catch properly.  The "fist drill" is a good drill for analyzing whether you're forming the catch properly...you'll go no where doing this drill if you don't.  Once you've initiated the catch, keep the pull close to your body...it looks like it gets a bit wide in your video.

2014-09-18 6:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

Agree with the technique recs above. But it doesn't actually look that bad. In fact, for the speed you're swimming at (2:00/100ish), it's totally serviceable. 

 

If you're shooting to drop 20+sec/100, I don't think technique fixes are going to alone do it. As is, you're not thrashing in the water, not too many bubbles, and even that 'braking' motion mentioned will cost you at MOST 1sec/100 (tiny effect.) I don't think your kick is dramatically slowing you, either. 

 

There's just not enough power in your pull stroke to allow that kind of speed imo, even if you have optimal streamlining, and you won't be able to get a good EVF without the added muscular endurance/power in the armstroke to permit that type of pull.

 

I'm not saying to ignore technique in your workouts, as there's always room for technique improvement, but I think you should be realistic in how much time gains you will expect by streamlining further (small, imo) without a fitness gain component. There are plenty of folks in the masters swim I do who swim 1:20/100 pace (markedly faster than you) with me in my lane who make more stroke errors than you have in your stroke, but can go much faster because their pull power and stroke turnover rate is much higher. 

 

On the bright side, you're doing a lot of things right - no fishtailing, minimal scissoring with the kick, no big crossover, no big bicycle kick, and head stays lowish. All could be improved, but it's honestly pretty good for a 2:00+/100yd swimmer. I actually think streamlining is not a major issue for you, but the limited power of your stroke is a the big limiter. The power is unfortunately built through increasing volume and intensity (while maintaining and even improving the form you have.

 

As for gripping the water, you will find that with the better power in your stroke, you will increasingly adopt a better EVF (early vertical forearm) for the pull. I honestly believe you can't drill that into someone with pure technique - it's hard and takes so much volume/intensity to improve because it's mainly a muscular endurance issue (power again). You will naturally adopt a better catch as your arm power improves - I don't think the right way to improve EVF is to drill it without building the muscular endurance. (You can try it -you won't get any faster.)

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by yazmaster 2014-09-18 6:09 PM


2014-09-18 6:39 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

Interesting that power gets brought up, when I was told that strength had very little to do with swimming a few weeks back.

2014-09-18 7:15 PM
in reply to: #5047639


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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Power is force sustained for time. It is NOT the same as strength. Lifting weights will not improve ops swim but doing more volume will absolutely build power for her
big limiter which is muscular endurance in the swim motion.
2014-09-19 12:42 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by msteiner

Interesting that power gets brought up, when I was told that strength had very little to do with swimming a few weeks back.




I agree she has a lot to gain with full body coordination in her stroke, and shaping the catch better. Adding power can come later when she's got the "shapes" correct and feeling 2nd nature.

That being said, I think she is far more "strength limited" as a swimmer than most guys are. As a GRAND generalization a lot of women are "allergic" to applying power or strength in the stroke and the arm slips through easily like TJ said. Until swimmers feeling the difference between slipping through the water in a forward direction vs. creating an anchoring drag force for propulsion, it's easy to mistake good drag for bad drag and avoid it altogether.

2014-09-19 5:09 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by msteiner

Interesting that power gets brought up, when I was told that strength had very little to do with swimming a few weeks back.




As was mentioned, power is force over time and the key here is almost certainly not building strength but learning how to catch the water and apply that strength to the catch.

Shane
2014-09-19 9:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by msteiner

Interesting that power gets brought up, when I was told that strength had very little to do with swimming a few weeks back.

I agree she has a lot to gain with full body coordination in her stroke, and shaping the catch better. Adding power can come later when she's got the "shapes" correct and feeling 2nd nature. That being said, I think she is far more "strength limited" as a swimmer than most guys are. As a GRAND generalization a lot of women are "allergic" to applying power or strength in the stroke and the arm slips through easily like TJ said. Until swimmers feeling the difference between slipping through the water in a forward direction vs. creating an anchoring drag force for propulsion, it's easy to mistake good drag for bad drag and avoid it altogether.

 

While both of us agree that her arm slips, we def disagree on how to significantly improve that.

 

I can almost guarantee that without increasing volume and/or speed in training, NO amount of technique training for EVF will help her grab more water. She simply does not have the muscular endurance to do it - just looking at her current fitness level in the water, there is no way possible she can swim a 1:45/100 (recovery pace for even a FOMOP triathlete) by just doing more scull drills and improving 'feel' for the water.

 

Until you build that muscular endurance through volume and then added intensity, it's just not going to happen. Sure, if you have a horrible technique base, absolutely fix that first, but imo OP's stroke is more than serviceable and as long as she maintains that form for the most part while adding the volume, that will improve her orders of magnitude compared to doing more sculling and body position drills, which will give her at best 1-2sec/100, and as she gets significantly faster, she'll autocorrect a lot of the little things that were mentioned above.

 

As for raw strength, it's not a limiter for all but the elite/pro triathletes, and even then it's the pointy end there that need that kind of strength (max force for low reps). Triathlon swims, even sprints, are 10+ minutes long, and closer to 20-45minutes for most. If you can maintain a high cadence in the water with a modest amount of strength, you will go right to the FOP as a AGer. OP's limiter isn't her raw strength -it's her muscular endurance.

 

If OP  could find a Vasa erg with powermeter, this would become amazingly apparent. I have one, and it has a powermeter on it. At 2:15/100, it requires about 20-25watts of pull power. At 1:50/100, it's at least 40 watts required - nearly double the pull power. At 1:20, it requires 85-90 watts, or nearly 4x the wattage for 2:15/100. (Yes, I've tested this compared to my own pool efforts, since I can swim all those speeds.) Since getting this device, it's remarkably obvious how important power is for speed once you have serviceable form, which OP has. 



Edited by yazmaster 2014-09-19 9:54 AM


2014-09-19 6:11 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by msteiner

Interesting that power gets brought up, when I was told that strength had very little to do with swimming a few weeks back.

I agree she has a lot to gain with full body coordination in her stroke, and shaping the catch better. Adding power can come later when she's got the "shapes" correct and feeling 2nd nature. That being said, I think she is far more "strength limited" as a swimmer than most guys are. As a GRAND generalization a lot of women are "allergic" to applying power or strength in the stroke and the arm slips through easily like TJ said. Until swimmers feeling the difference between slipping through the water in a forward direction vs. creating an anchoring drag force for propulsion, it's easy to mistake good drag for bad drag and avoid it altogether.

 

While both of us agree that her arm slips, we def disagree on how to significantly improve that.

 

I can almost guarantee that without increasing volume and/or speed in training, NO amount of technique training for EVF will help her grab more water. She simply does not have the muscular endurance to do it - just looking at her current fitness level in the water, there is no way possible she can swim a 1:45/100 (recovery pace for even a FOMOP triathlete) by just doing more scull drills and improving 'feel' for the water.

 

Until you build that muscular endurance through volume and then added intensity, it's just not going to happen. Sure, if you have a horrible technique base, absolutely fix that first, but imo OP's stroke is more than serviceable and as long as she maintains that form for the most part while adding the volume, that will improve her orders of magnitude compared to doing more sculling and body position drills, which will give her at best 1-2sec/100, and as she gets significantly faster, she'll autocorrect a lot of the little things that were mentioned above.

 

As for raw strength, it's not a limiter for all but the elite/pro triathletes, and even then it's the pointy end there that need that kind of strength (max force for low reps). Triathlon swims, even sprints, are 10+ minutes long, and closer to 20-45minutes for most. If you can maintain a high cadence in the water with a modest amount of strength, you will go right to the FOP as a AGer. OP's limiter isn't her raw strength -it's her muscular endurance.

 

If OP  could find a Vasa erg with powermeter, this would become amazingly apparent. I have one, and it has a powermeter on it. At 2:15/100, it requires about 20-25watts of pull power. At 1:50/100, it's at least 40 watts required - nearly double the pull power. At 1:20, it requires 85-90 watts, or nearly 4x the wattage for 2:15/100. (Yes, I've tested this compared to my own pool efforts, since I can swim all those speeds.) Since getting this device, it's remarkably obvious how important power is for speed once you have serviceable form, which OP has. 




May I ask a question here? I hope this is relevant.

I realize, first, that pool time is priority one.

I see that swimmers will use rubber cords for swim-specific "pull-type" on-deck training. Is this training aimed at this power aspect of a swimmer's ability? If so, what are some recommendations for number of reps/sets for adult-onset AGers?

thanks
2014-09-19 10:37 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by msteiner

Interesting that power gets brought up, when I was told that strength had very little to do with swimming a few weeks back.




As was mentioned, power is force over time and the key here is almost certainly not building strength but learning how to catch the water and apply that strength to the catch.

Shane


Do swim paddles help with this? That's one tool I haven't used yet.

My swimming is pretty similar to Erin's and I know I don't have a good catch. I just don't know how to fix it.
2014-09-20 12:24 AM
in reply to: #5047639

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
How is "serviceable form" defined?

No one has perfect form, few have excellent form, some have great form, most have form that adequately gets them from A to B

There will always be the next piece of low hanging fruit for any swimmer.

Suggesting that there is a time to set aside improvements In technique and replacing that with volume does a huge disservice to the improving swimmer. The OP actually has done just that (relative to what he had been doing before) and gotten slower.

Improving skill is not the same as doing drills.

In her case correcting and streamlining her kick and body, using her core will help get her moving faster through the water with no extra energy.

When she is moving faster it will be easier for her to feel how small changes in the placement if her arm in the water (as one example of form) slow down or maintain that speed. She can then do repeats of that improved movement maintaining speed (not slowing down and learning to sense when speed changes happen)

Little by little as the swimmer practices one small movement better, they not only accumulate additive elements of improved form, but have also accumulated a volume in swimming. Conditioning follows the practice. (Specific strength and power)

It is still called swim practice in the elite squads right? Practice better than you've practiced before and you'll get faster.

Shane is right that applying strength in the specific skill area is more vital than general strength.

When swimmers like the OP first try to catch more water those muscles needed (internal rotators) or so deconditioned that local and specific strength is the limiter...using the strength in the specific joint angles and sequence of activation needed.

On the vasa you can generate power with suboptimal combinations of muscle activation that won't directly transfer to best form in the pool.

It's a great tool however to examine form without the disoelrientayion and reduced oxygen availability environment that is in the pool.

Her optimal improvement path is for her to uncover, she has gotten plenty if advice here.

We are all still eating for the underwater video as well!
2014-09-20 11:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

@Adventurebear - My whole entire point is that in terms of retrun on time spent for improvement, I will estimate:

 

For the OP:

- With zero fitness improvement, but maximum technique optimization (theoretically) - <7sec/100 gained, and that's with a LOT of technique work.

- With significant fitness (arm pull/catch power) but ZERO improvement in technique - nearly unlimited improvement, and a 20sec/100 improvement to 1:50 would happen guaranteed in months, and won't plateu for a long while.

 

The good part is that these are not mutually exclusive, you will obviously improve both if you spend more time the water with attention to both intensity and fitness.

 

However, for this swimmer, the single biggest factor holding her back is NOT streamlining. It is her pull/catch power, and you will not improve that one bit by avoiding increasing volume (or intensity) and just focusing on gentle technique improveemnts. Nobody in swimming ever developed a good EVF by swimming small volumes and avoiding intervals - because it's all about muscular endurance for that motion.

 

 ALso note I'm not saying this advice is true for everyone - I've seen quite a few videos of swimmers on BT who have such big technique errors that it really is a priority to fix those first before anything else. But OP's form really is serviceable. The big weakness, which is the EVF, cannot be improved by avoiding increasing volume and/or intensity. 

 

We're actually saying the same thing in terms of workouts - nothing too drastic in either case. I say to focus on power/volume, but not saying you should flail your way thru the water and let your technique go to horrible. Similarly, you're recommending gradually increasing volume but with a focus on technique so you don't lose it when you ramp up. Our end approach is similar, but I'm trying to point attention at the one speed killer she has, which is the lack of stroke power. FOcusing on legs, head position, etc., are meaningless compared to improving the big limiter which is pull/catch power for OP.



Edited by yazmaster 2014-09-20 11:14 AM
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Started by steve d
Views: 3780 Posts: 38

2008-03-12 10:33 AM kimmitri408

Has anyone dramatically improved their run speed? Pages: 1 2

Started by krludwig
Views: 2553 Posts: 32

2007-10-03 1:28 AM KSC

Dramatically new and high MHR on the bike

Started by David14
Views: 729 Posts: 9

2005-07-29 4:22 AM Special K
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