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2014-10-30 4:09 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by TriJedi I see school dress codes a few ways. First, schools and most public and work places operate under "middle class norms". Asking students to meet certain expectations when it comes to how they dress is part of the life-learning experience. Second, a dress code is in place to help create a better learning environment. Obviously, certain attire can distract from learning. Third, having a dress codes provides a standard that helps teachers/administration deal with related issues. School staff already has enough to do without having to deal additional problems. I can't go along with the idea that students can police themselves. Bullying and other related issues are such a huge problems because students cannot police themselves. While many students come to school well adjusted and able to handle pretty much anything that comes their way, there are many students who don't have the upbringing, skills, support, experience, etc. that enables them to be successful with aspects of the school experience.

Within my responsibilities is the supervision of 8 school resource officers who police 9 schools, both Middle and High School, public and private.  One has a very strict dress code, the others are split pretty evenly between a dress code that is enforced regularly and a dress code that is barely enforced at all.....of it even exists.  It has been my experience that there is not a measurable difference in calls to those schools.  There is vitrually no statistical difference in the number of calls to those schools.  I'm willing to bet the graduation rates are really close, along with future college attendence. 

What a kid wears to school really is a small deal......the kids don't care, the adults make the issues. 

I remember our parents going crazy in the late 60's and 70's because we wanted to grow our hair long......what a waste of time and energy by everybody who worried about something that simple.  Kind of like worrying whether or not a girls blouse straps are 1/4 inch or 2 inches, or if her shoulders are bare.....or if the boys wear tank tops.  No thanks.

What kinds of calls are you referring to?  Calls as in violations of dress code or calls as in we need a resource officer (not sure if that's a security guard or similar) to respond to an issue?

How do you track "calls" between the three schools?  What meets the criteria to be an entry in whatever system is used?    Who oversees and validates that each school is handling the "calls" in the same way?

Wasn't there something in the news recently surrounding a controversy in NY about a youth jail having a DRAMATIC drop in fights and everyone was congratulating each other on the fine job the prison was doing, only to find out the tracking process of fights was flawed?

Numbers don't lie but liars use numbers...

..

 



2014-10-30 5:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

And so, in conclusion, a girl wears yoga pants and a blouse with spaghetti straps to school, and a boy can't control himself enough to study or not make rude comments to the girl, and we decide that the best way to handle that is to tell the girl she can't wear those clothes to school.  Got it.  It's her fault.

I guess as a means to get the thread back to the OP's original intent I can only hope the people in our parallel universe are a lot smarter than we are.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-10-30 5:30 PM
2014-10-30 9:35 PM
in reply to: jmcconne

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god
Originally posted by jmcconne

Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.


I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences.

But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.
2014-10-30 9:40 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

2014-10-31 7:46 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

Agreed regarding people having the right to dress how they want.  The discussion has never been about the right to choose, it's about consequences in certain settings as you pointed out.

HOWEVER, in high school there are dress codes and instances where a kid doesn't get to choose something inappropriate to wear which have been covered in great detail in this thread.

The pro "kids will police themselves crowd" try to say the inmates should rule the asylum which is baffling... And wrong....

 

2014-10-31 8:43 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by TriJedi I see school dress codes a few ways. First, schools and most public and work places operate under "middle class norms". Asking students to meet certain expectations when it comes to how they dress is part of the life-learning experience. Second, a dress code is in place to help create a better learning environment. Obviously, certain attire can distract from learning. Third, having a dress codes provides a standard that helps teachers/administration deal with related issues. School staff already has enough to do without having to deal additional problems. I can't go along with the idea that students can police themselves. Bullying and other related issues are such a huge problems because students cannot police themselves. While many students come to school well adjusted and able to handle pretty much anything that comes their way, there are many students who don't have the upbringing, skills, support, experience, etc. that enables them to be successful with aspects of the school experience.

Within my responsibilities is the supervision of 8 school resource officers who police 9 schools, both Middle and High School, public and private.  One has a very strict dress code, the others are split pretty evenly between a dress code that is enforced regularly and a dress code that is barely enforced at all.....of it even exists.  It has been my experience that there is not a measurable difference in calls to those schools.  There is vitrually no statistical difference in the number of calls to those schools.  I'm willing to bet the graduation rates are really close, along with future college attendence. 

What a kid wears to school really is a small deal......the kids don't care, the adults make the issues. 

I remember our parents going crazy in the late 60's and 70's because we wanted to grow our hair long......what a waste of time and energy by everybody who worried about something that simple.  Kind of like worrying whether or not a girls blouse straps are 1/4 inch or 2 inches, or if her shoulders are bare.....or if the boys wear tank tops.  No thanks.




My comments are based on my 18 plus years as a teacher and coach and having to deal with issues due to student attire. I am married to someone who has spent time dealing with issues as a councilor and AP, and have numerous friends who are teachers and administrators. It is something that has been discussed both casually and professionally. What it comes down to is doing what is best for students and creating the best learning environment.

It has been my experience that staff cares about students and care when their learning is distracted or disrupted. And many kids do care about what they wear and what other kids wear--that is why they wear their gang colors, dress for social status, or to get all different types of attention. Kids get ostracized, teased and bullied because of what they wear.

What a kid wears is a small deal most of the time and for most kids is not an issue. But having a reasonable dress codes provides boundaries that helps students and staff focus on what they should be doing in school.


2014-10-31 12:27 PM
in reply to: TriMike

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by TriMike

So you're saying assaults on women have nothing to do with how they dress yet it has everything to do with a percentage of control freak men?  Those numbers don't add up bro... You're talking about the stalkers, serial rapists etc but you leave out the guys who just lose control....   

Wait, what?

For the parent's that want a dress code, why not just send your children to a school with uniforms?

2014-10-31 2:22 PM
in reply to: TriMike

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

Agreed regarding people having the right to dress how they want.  The discussion has never been about the right to choose, it's about consequences in certain settings as you pointed out.

HOWEVER, in high school there are dress codes and instances where a kid doesn't get to choose something inappropriate to wear which have been covered in great detail in this thread.

The pro "kids will police themselves crowd" try to say the inmates should rule the asylum which is baffling... And wrong....

 




My response to that is to say that a school is not an asylum and kids are not inmates, but that if you treat them as such, they'll probably resemble both before very long.

Kids don't get to "rule" anything, but a school that doesn't let kids have any say in the way rules are set or enforced is going to have a lot more issues with discipline than a school that at least allows the kids some ability to participate in the process. Different schools do it differently-- my kids school has "peer mediation" where kids can enlist other kids to help them work out their differences; some schools have a honor council to help decide on policies and is part of the decision-making body when it comes to meting out discipline.

I wonder (though I think I probably know the answer already) whether there was any effort to elicit students' opinions or feedback, either formally or informally, before this administrator made her ill-advised decision to ban yoga pants and explicity tell the girls that they looked like hookers. I bet not.
2014-10-31 3:41 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

Agreed regarding people having the right to dress how they want.  The discussion has never been about the right to choose, it's about consequences in certain settings as you pointed out.

HOWEVER, in high school there are dress codes and instances where a kid doesn't get to choose something inappropriate to wear which have been covered in great detail in this thread.

The pro "kids will police themselves crowd" try to say the inmates should rule the asylum which is baffling... And wrong....

 

My response to that is to say that a school is not an asylum and kids are not inmates, but that if you treat them as such, they'll probably resemble both before very long. Kids don't get to "rule" anything, but a school that doesn't let kids have any say in the way rules are set or enforced is going to have a lot more issues with discipline than a school that at least allows the kids some ability to participate in the process. Different schools do it differently-- my kids school has "peer mediation" where kids can enlist other kids to help them work out their differences; some schools have a honor council to help decide on policies and is part of the decision-making body when it comes to meting out discipline. I wonder (though I think I probably know the answer already) whether there was any effort to elicit students' opinions or feedback, either formally or informally, before this administrator made her ill-advised decision to ban yoga pants and explicity tell the girls that they looked like hookers. I bet not.

It's a saying....

As for peer mediation or honor council, that sounds good to me.  We're a bureaucratic society so why not teach'em young...  

Seriously though I think students deserve a voice and it's important they have a chance to be heard, I won't disagree..

2014-10-31 3:48 PM
in reply to: TriMike

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

Agreed regarding people having the right to dress how they want.  The discussion has never been about the right to choose, it's about consequences in certain settings as you pointed out.

HOWEVER, in high school there are dress codes and instances where a kid doesn't get to choose something inappropriate to wear which have been covered in great detail in this thread.

The pro "kids will police themselves crowd" try to say the inmates should rule the asylum which is baffling... And wrong....

 

My response to that is to say that a school is not an asylum and kids are not inmates, but that if you treat them as such, they'll probably resemble both before very long. Kids don't get to "rule" anything, but a school that doesn't let kids have any say in the way rules are set or enforced is going to have a lot more issues with discipline than a school that at least allows the kids some ability to participate in the process. Different schools do it differently-- my kids school has "peer mediation" where kids can enlist other kids to help them work out their differences; some schools have a honor council to help decide on policies and is part of the decision-making body when it comes to meting out discipline. I wonder (though I think I probably know the answer already) whether there was any effort to elicit students' opinions or feedback, either formally or informally, before this administrator made her ill-advised decision to ban yoga pants and explicity tell the girls that they looked like hookers. I bet not.

It's a saying....

As for peer mediation or honor council, that sounds good to me.  We're a bureaucratic society so why not teach'em young...  

Seriously though I think students deserve a voice and it's important they have a chance to be heard, I won't disagree..

On a complete side note I never realized how much disagreement there was about student dress codes.  I have always known schools to have fairly conservative standards and never thought much about it (even when I was a student).
I did some googling on the topic and there's quite a hot debate out there. 

2014-11-08 11:58 AM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god
Been traveling. GREAT discussion. Still, someone mentioned that the thread diverted from the OP. I disagree in part. IMO, if it were not for the "major" religions' treatment of sexuality as something sinful & abnormal, we perhaps would not be having this discussion of sexual deviance & blame. Denying what's natural amounts to outright frustration & thus antisocial behavior. This is precisely how religion has screwed up the world (see Sigmund Freud).

I was in Korea, a FUNDAMENTALLY non-christian nation (Confusiasm/Taos lives in their collective collective consciousness) during the summer. Women/girls wore really "skimpy" outfits, I never once observed Korean men behave like the fools in that CNN video. IMO, this is illustrative of the outright evil of religion.

On a very relat d matter... My Flo wheels are due for delivery today!


2014-11-09 10:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

Agreed regarding people having the right to dress how they want.  The discussion has never been about the right to choose, it's about consequences in certain settings as you pointed out.

HOWEVER, in high school there are dress codes and instances where a kid doesn't get to choose something inappropriate to wear which have been covered in great detail in this thread.

The pro "kids will police themselves crowd" try to say the inmates should rule the asylum which is baffling... And wrong....

 

My response to that is to say that a school is not an asylum and kids are not inmates, but that if you treat them as such, they'll probably resemble both before very long. Kids don't get to "rule" anything, but a school that doesn't let kids have any say in the way rules are set or enforced is going to have a lot more issues with discipline than a school that at least allows the kids some ability to participate in the process. Different schools do it differently-- my kids school has "peer mediation" where kids can enlist other kids to help them work out their differences; some schools have a honor council to help decide on policies and is part of the decision-making body when it comes to meting out discipline. I wonder (though I think I probably know the answer already) whether there was any effort to elicit students' opinions or feedback, either formally or informally, before this administrator made her ill-advised decision to ban yoga pants and explicity tell the girls that they looked like hookers. I bet not.

It's a saying....

As for peer mediation or honor council, that sounds good to me.  We're a bureaucratic society so why not teach'em young...  

Seriously though I think students deserve a voice and it's important they have a chance to be heard, I won't disagree..

On a complete side note I never realized how much disagreement there was about student dress codes.  I have always known schools to have fairly conservative standards and never thought much about it (even when I was a student).
I did some googling on the topic and there's quite a hot debate out there. 

It's not really a debate......it's mostly people trying to deflect poor behavior.  It's been going on for awhile, but it's just as ridiculous as when it started. 

A girl wears clothing that someone deems inappropriate for any number of random reasons, some guy acts like a moron, or worse, a criminal, and it's the girls fault for wearing what she did.  It's patently stupid and irrational......but it keeps getting re-played by "the good people".   You can't make it up. 

Don't fall for it.  It's the moron dude's  fault....every damn time.   Poor behavior has no excuses, but it does have enablers and deflectors....no matter how veiled.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-11-09 10:46 PM
2014-11-10 9:44 AM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by Porfirio Been traveling. GREAT discussion. Still, someone mentioned that the thread diverted from the OP. I disagree in part. IMO, if it were not for the "major" religions' treatment of sexuality as something sinful & abnormal, we perhaps would not be having this discussion of sexual deviance & blame. Denying what's natural amounts to outright frustration & thus antisocial behavior. This is precisely how religion has screwed up the world (see Sigmund Freud). I was in Korea, a FUNDAMENTALLY non-christian nation (Confusiasm/Taos lives in their collective collective consciousness) during the summer. Women/girls wore really "skimpy" outfits, I never once observed Korean men behave like the fools in that CNN video. IMO, this is illustrative of the outright evil of religion. On a very relat d matter... My Flo wheels are due for delivery today!

Every culture has to find a balance when it comes to social limits, and there are obviously a lot of viewpoints even outside of religion when it comes to where those boundaries should be.  If you take away the deity part of Christianity for example, and just look at many of the "rules' that are in place such as not having sex outside of marriage, stealing, chasing your neighbors wife, etc... the vast majority of those laws or morals are in our social norms not just because they're religious, but because they make sense for an orderly society.

You mention that denying what's natural amounts to antisocial behavior, but I disagree.  Sexual deviance by it's very nature is deviation from what is natural.  Natural law states in essence that humans have a natural drive to drink, eat, sleep, protect, and procreate.  These behaviors allow for our species to survive, so any laws that conform with such activities are morally good, and any activities against are morally wrong in the purest form of natural law.
If I eat too much or too little and it places my life in jeopardy, then it is morally wrong from a natural law standpoint.  However, our laws allow for me to eat all I want.  There are cultures in the world that do not allow people to eat all they want, because it is "morally wrong" and there are even pushes in the US by various politicians to enforce by law what people can and cannot eat.
The same "natural law" argument is often used against Homosexuality because it violates natural law, so it is therefore morally wrong and shouldn't be allowed.  However, the same can be said about heterosexual relations that aren't geared towards procreation and our society doesn't have a problem with that.  So, it's not as cut and dry as many like to believe.

I know many people like to say that the US is a Christian nation formed on Biblical principles, but it really isn't.  It's a nation formed on natural law and consent of the governed.  It just so happens, that most Christian laws are consistent with natural law which is why there's so much confusion in my opinion.

Your Korea example is representative of a society that is behind the US.  South Korea is conservative in nature due to cultural and religious reasons, which is similar to where the US was prior to the "sexual revolution".  So, if anything I find it kind of ironic that we look at Korea s a model example of a society that treats women with respect, but the reasons are because of their cultural and religious traditions that are not that much different than what the US used to be. For comparison, in South Korea less than 8% of teenagers have sexual intercourse in high school compared to near 50% in the US.  It's perfectly legal for them to do it, so what's the difference and more importantly, what are the consequences to society?

2014-11-10 11:50 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god
Originally posted by tuwood

You mention that denying what's natural amounts to antisocial behavior, but I disagree.  Sexual deviance by it's very nature is deviation from what is natural.  Natural law states in essence that humans have a natural drive to drink, eat, sleep, protect, and procreate.  These behaviors allow for our species to survive, so any laws that conform with such activities are morally good, and any activities against are morally wrong in the purest form of natural law.

South Korea less than 8% of teenagers have sexual intercourse in high school compared to near 50% in the US.  It's perfectly legal for them to do it, so what's the difference and more importantly, what are the consequences to society?




What I meant was this: If you convince the masses that sexuality is "dirty" & "immoral," then the masses will surely be screwed up in the head b/c of the struggle to reconcile w/a natural want/need which is deemed bad. (Again, I cite S. Freud's more respectful work on religion critique.) This is my point... that sexual deviance (e.g., disrespecting women) is borne from acting out of pent-up frustration. (As an aside, the burqua seems to fail in "calming" men down... it seems to make them hungrier & hence the women suffer.) Of course, no one is suggesting we allow/encourage kids to go all out. Indeed, quite the opposite. They should understand, both intellectually & morally, that their sexuality is NOT sinful or dirty. Only then will they be able to calm their naturally-occurring rebellious curiosity/quest for establishing an identity.

I have not heard of the S. Korean statistic you quote, but I believe it supports my this thesis: Religion's frowning upon sexuality has caused far more damage than good. Case-in-point, IMO, are all the rapist Catholic priest.

2014-11-10 2:46 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by Porfirio
Originally posted by tuwood
You mention that denying what's natural amounts to antisocial behavior, but I disagree.  Sexual deviance by it's very nature is deviation from what is natural.  Natural law states in essence that humans have a natural drive to drink, eat, sleep, protect, and procreate.  These behaviors allow for our species to survive, so any laws that conform with such activities are morally good, and any activities against are morally wrong in the purest form of natural law. South Korea less than 8% of teenagers have sexual intercourse in high school compared to near 50% in the US.  It's perfectly legal for them to do it, so what's the difference and more importantly, what are the consequences to society?

What I meant was this: If you convince the masses that sexuality is "dirty" & "immoral," then the masses will surely be screwed up in the head b/c of the struggle to reconcile w/a natural want/need which is deemed bad. (Again, I cite S. Freud's more respectful work on religion critique.) This is my point... that sexual deviance (e.g., disrespecting women) is borne from acting out of pent-up frustration. (As an aside, the burqua seems to fail in "calming" men down... it seems to make them hungrier & hence the women suffer.) Of course, no one is suggesting we allow/encourage kids to go all out. Indeed, quite the opposite. They should understand, both intellectually & morally, that their sexuality is NOT sinful or dirty. Only then will they be able to calm their naturally-occurring rebellious curiosity/quest for establishing an identity. I have not heard of the S. Korean statistic you quote, but I believe it supports my this thesis: Religion's frowning upon sexuality has caused far more damage than good. Case-in-point, IMO, are all the rapist Catholic priest.

I think I get what you're saying, but I still have to respectfully disagree.  Obviously you have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to religion (which I do as well), but I don't feel you can lump all sexuality as being free game and nothing as dirty or immoral.  I'm sure you and I both agree that sex between a 13 year old and a 30 year old is immoral, and there should be laws in place to prevent it as well as teaching our kids that it's wrong.
Even though there may be a natural need/want it still doesn't make it right.

I can also assure you after 20 years of struggling, with and a decade of studying/helping men who struggle with sexual addiction it is most certainly not created out of "pent-up frustration".  It's very complex, but most sexual deviance that leads to objectification of women is born at a very young age.  For me personally, I had access to hard core pornography and magazines at 9 years old and by the time I hit puberty I was a raging sex addict that looked at girls for one thing and one thing only.  My whole house was Atheist and I was trying to sleep with every girl that had a pulse when I was 12 years old.  That most certainly wasn't born of "pent-up frustration".  It was born out of over exposure to sexuality at too young of an age.

Religion doesn't frown upon sexuality, it frowns upon fornication, or sex outside of marriage.  Kids and adults having more and more exposure to sexual stimulus all around them (media, porn, friends/etc.) is what's causing them to think more and more about sex at younger and younger ages, not oppression from it.  The influence of religion oppressing sexuality in our culture has diminished drastically in the last 50 years and our sexual issues as a nation have progressively gotten worse over the same time.

However, with the S. Korean example they have NOT had the immersion of sexuality into their culture until recently and they still mostly hold true to their cultural and religious beliefs that sex outside of marriage is unacceptable.  As a result, their society is as you described earlier, is very respectful of women.  However, the "progressive" mindset is slowly creeping in there and they are having a lot of battles about sexuality and of course the young generation is becoming more open to sexuality due to influences from other cultures (like the US).
I did a quick google and found quite a few articles about S. Korea having a lot of contention over conservative/traditional views vs. progressive views on sexuality.  I found this one interesting: http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Changing-attitude-toward-sex-threatens-South-2628638.php(btw, it cites high school kids being sexually active as 17%, the earlier 7.5% I cited was from this wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_South_Korea#cite_note-International-1)
So, religion and tradition frowning upon sexuality in S. Korea seems to be working quite well for them.

As for the Catholic Priest issue, being celibate has nothing to do with being a child rapist.  Being a pedophile sociopath is what makes one a child rapist and unfortunately it's not confined to the Catholic Church.  According to the Pope, they have 2% of their priests who are Pedophiles (no way to verify number) and the generally accepted estimate for people with pedophilia tendencies in America is around 4%.  So, basically the Catholic church is no different than the general population.  There's no study that I'm aware of that links a person "not getting sex" as a cause of being attracted to and raping children.  Pedophilia is considered a mental disorder and the APA caused a turd storm last year when they dared call it a sexual orientation (oops).  Rape, on the other hand, is about control and domination and the sexual attraction of the sociopath is what determines who the victim is.

2014-11-10 7:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

Agreed regarding people having the right to dress how they want.  The discussion has never been about the right to choose, it's about consequences in certain settings as you pointed out.

HOWEVER, in high school there are dress codes and instances where a kid doesn't get to choose something inappropriate to wear which have been covered in great detail in this thread.

The pro "kids will police themselves crowd" try to say the inmates should rule the asylum which is baffling... And wrong....

 

My response to that is to say that a school is not an asylum and kids are not inmates, but that if you treat them as such, they'll probably resemble both before very long. Kids don't get to "rule" anything, but a school that doesn't let kids have any say in the way rules are set or enforced is going to have a lot more issues with discipline than a school that at least allows the kids some ability to participate in the process. Different schools do it differently-- my kids school has "peer mediation" where kids can enlist other kids to help them work out their differences; some schools have a honor council to help decide on policies and is part of the decision-making body when it comes to meting out discipline. I wonder (though I think I probably know the answer already) whether there was any effort to elicit students' opinions or feedback, either formally or informally, before this administrator made her ill-advised decision to ban yoga pants and explicity tell the girls that they looked like hookers. I bet not.

It's a saying....

As for peer mediation or honor council, that sounds good to me.  We're a bureaucratic society so why not teach'em young...  

Seriously though I think students deserve a voice and it's important they have a chance to be heard, I won't disagree..

On a complete side note I never realized how much disagreement there was about student dress codes.  I have always known schools to have fairly conservative standards and never thought much about it (even when I was a student).
I did some googling on the topic and there's quite a hot debate out there. 

It's not really a debate......it's mostly people trying to deflect poor behavior.  It's been going on for awhile, but it's just as ridiculous as when it started. 

A girl wears clothing that someone deems inappropriate for any number of random reasons, some guy acts like a moron, or worse, a criminal, and it's the girls fault for wearing what she did.  It's patently stupid and irrational......but it keeps getting re-played by "the good people".   You can't make it up. 

Don't fall for it.  It's the moron dude's  fault....every damn time.   Poor behavior has no excuses, but it does have enablers and deflectors....no matter how veiled.

Chalk it up to the pro rentacop business lobby.... Their business plan is pure brilliance... No rules (the kids will police themselves.... for a little while anyway)  then you sell the schools Paul Blart to keep the order...

BRILLIANT...

 

 



Edited by TriMike 2014-11-10 7:40 PM


2014-11-10 7:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

Agreed regarding people having the right to dress how they want.  The discussion has never been about the right to choose, it's about consequences in certain settings as you pointed out.

HOWEVER, in high school there are dress codes and instances where a kid doesn't get to choose something inappropriate to wear which have been covered in great detail in this thread.

The pro "kids will police themselves crowd" try to say the inmates should rule the asylum which is baffling... And wrong....

 

My response to that is to say that a school is not an asylum and kids are not inmates, but that if you treat them as such, they'll probably resemble both before very long. Kids don't get to "rule" anything, but a school that doesn't let kids have any say in the way rules are set or enforced is going to have a lot more issues with discipline than a school that at least allows the kids some ability to participate in the process. Different schools do it differently-- my kids school has "peer mediation" where kids can enlist other kids to help them work out their differences; some schools have a honor council to help decide on policies and is part of the decision-making body when it comes to meting out discipline. I wonder (though I think I probably know the answer already) whether there was any effort to elicit students' opinions or feedback, either formally or informally, before this administrator made her ill-advised decision to ban yoga pants and explicity tell the girls that they looked like hookers. I bet not.

It's a saying....

As for peer mediation or honor council, that sounds good to me.  We're a bureaucratic society so why not teach'em young...  

Seriously though I think students deserve a voice and it's important they have a chance to be heard, I won't disagree..

On a complete side note I never realized how much disagreement there was about student dress codes.  I have always known schools to have fairly conservative standards and never thought much about it (even when I was a student).
I did some googling on the topic and there's quite a hot debate out there. 

It's not really a debate......it's mostly people trying to deflect poor behavior.  It's been going on for awhile, but it's just as ridiculous as when it started. 

A girl wears clothing that someone deems inappropriate for any number of random reasons, some guy acts like a moron, or worse, a criminal, and it's the girls fault for wearing what she did.  It's patently stupid and irrational......but it keeps getting re-played by "the good people".   You can't make it up. 

Don't fall for it.  It's the moron dude's  fault....every damn time.   Poor behavior has no excuses, but it does have enablers and deflectors....no matter how veiled.

Chalk it up to the pro rentacop business lobby.... Their business plan is pure brilliance... No rules (the kids will police themselves.... for a little while anyway)  then you sell the schools Paul Blart to keep the order...

BRILLIANT...

 

You still have it backward.......its the behavior that needs to  be policed, not the clothing. 

I can tell you won't understand that.......so yeah, you have no alternative then to tell your daughters how to dress so they don't "invite" rude behavior.  Too bad.

Carry on.   



Edited by Left Brain 2014-11-10 7:57 PM
2014-11-10 8:20 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Parallel Realities & god

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jmcconne Everyone should be taught that the way they present themselves has a part in how people treat them and (though spoken of much less) how a person feels about themselves. I'm not referring to rape or any other illegal behavior. There is a reason most CEO's wear suits or similar, and it isn't because they are comfortable.
I don't think anyone's arguing that how a person presents themself has nothing to do with how their treated. But, having been told that, they then have the right to dress how they want. And yes, there may be consequences that result from their choice, and they should be aware of those potential consequences. But there's a big, big difference between being made aware of the potential consequences and being responsible for them. A girl who chooses to wear a miniskirt to school should be aware that some idiot boys may make rude comments to her, but that's not the same as telling her that it's her fault.

True enough JMK....and what you'll get next from the "blame" crowd is ...."I never said it was her fault".....it's the game they play.  The truth is, it's NEVER her fault when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.  If you look at any instance of it through that lens you will be right 99% of the time.

 

Agreed regarding people having the right to dress how they want.  The discussion has never been about the right to choose, it's about consequences in certain settings as you pointed out.

HOWEVER, in high school there are dress codes and instances where a kid doesn't get to choose something inappropriate to wear which have been covered in great detail in this thread.

The pro "kids will police themselves crowd" try to say the inmates should rule the asylum which is baffling... And wrong....

 

My response to that is to say that a school is not an asylum and kids are not inmates, but that if you treat them as such, they'll probably resemble both before very long. Kids don't get to "rule" anything, but a school that doesn't let kids have any say in the way rules are set or enforced is going to have a lot more issues with discipline than a school that at least allows the kids some ability to participate in the process. Different schools do it differently-- my kids school has "peer mediation" where kids can enlist other kids to help them work out their differences; some schools have a honor council to help decide on policies and is part of the decision-making body when it comes to meting out discipline. I wonder (though I think I probably know the answer already) whether there was any effort to elicit students' opinions or feedback, either formally or informally, before this administrator made her ill-advised decision to ban yoga pants and explicity tell the girls that they looked like hookers. I bet not.

It's a saying....

As for peer mediation or honor council, that sounds good to me.  We're a bureaucratic society so why not teach'em young...  

Seriously though I think students deserve a voice and it's important they have a chance to be heard, I won't disagree..

On a complete side note I never realized how much disagreement there was about student dress codes.  I have always known schools to have fairly conservative standards and never thought much about it (even when I was a student).
I did some googling on the topic and there's quite a hot debate out there. 

It's not really a debate......it's mostly people trying to deflect poor behavior.  It's been going on for awhile, but it's just as ridiculous as when it started. 

A girl wears clothing that someone deems inappropriate for any number of random reasons, some guy acts like a moron, or worse, a criminal, and it's the girls fault for wearing what she did.  It's patently stupid and irrational......but it keeps getting re-played by "the good people".   You can't make it up. 

Don't fall for it.  It's the moron dude's  fault....every damn time.   Poor behavior has no excuses, but it does have enablers and deflectors....no matter how veiled.

Chalk it up to the pro rentacop business lobby.... Their business plan is pure brilliance... No rules (the kids will police themselves.... for a little while anyway)  then you sell the schools Paul Blart to keep the order...

BRILLIANT...

 

You still have it backward.......its the behavior that needs to  be policed, not the clothing. 

I can tell you won't understand that.......so yeah, you have no alternative then to tell your daughters how to dress so they don't "invite" rude behavior.  Too bad.

Carry on.   

Someone's got it backward but it isn't me....Others have said it more eloquently that dressing inappropriately may come with consequences... And again said many times, does NOT  mean it's the victim's fault.... Consequences big and small that just aren't worth it for a high school administration to have to deal with...

But you'll keep trying, it's what you do....You never let the facts get in the way of a good story....

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I was humbled last year. My body shut down on me just before two World Championship events. I was originally in top form to medal in both, but my strength was sapped from me.