General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Training Duration vs Race Duration? Rss Feed  
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2014-09-29 7:38 AM

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Subject: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
I apologize in advance for all the posts this morning, my mind is buzzing from yesterday's tri and I have more questions than answers after completing my first real Oly. I bonked pretty hard on the run. I have run a lot of races from 5ks to Marys and I have never bonked like that. It was pretty rough at the end. It could have been the heat. The heat index was close to 100 during the run and the entire run was on a bridge with zero shade. But I train in the heat year round, so I don't want to blame that. The other thought I had is that most of my workouts are around 1.5 hours. My longest is a 45 mile ride which typically lasts 2.5 hours. I finished the race in 2:42* and therein lies my question. Does it make sense to have your training never reach the duration of your race? I don't think you'd typically do this (outside of marathon training) in running, but at the same time, triathlon is a bit different due to the length of races. So what is customary? Do you meet or exceed the race duration you are training for outside of the obvious outliers, i.e. HIMs and IMs?

*as a note, the race was long; the bike was just shy of 26 miles and I heard a lot of rumblings that the swim was a couple 100 meters long as well.


2014-09-29 8:05 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
There are a lot of factors that come into play with your question. For Olympic distance, it's certainly good to get some 3 hour workouts in but it's certainly not mandatory go race duration. For my first few Olys way back I certainly didn't. By your brief summary of your race I would guess your issues were due to some combination of overall fitness combined with the heat. I don't believe you mentioned it but I'm guessing your pace was faster than in training as well.
2014-09-29 8:38 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

My theories on workout duration(s):

* Be able to swim the race distance hard and not be totally wrecked at the end.

* Be able to run 1.5x the race distance at moderate pace.

* Biking is a different animal to me -- less traumatic (as long as you don't crash). I have a progression of readiness (depending on how you want to "race"). First is being able to ride the race distance and be able to run after, speed irrelevant. Second is to be able ride the race distance hard and be able to run after. Third is to be able to ride the time duration that you'd expect the entire event to take, speed somewhat irrelevant. Fourth is to be able to ride the time duration that you expect for the entire event, but hard.

So it seems your ride is in that "third" region, so I don't think it's so much your training as your nutrition on race day. Bonking is about running out of available energy, not developed endurance. What did you eat before and during the event?

2014-09-29 8:59 AM
in reply to: briderdt

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

3Mar - what are your goals in triathlon?  I'm curious because it seems, from reading your posts, that you want to be a competitive AG'er........you have done a sprint, an Oly that didn't go well, and your next race is a HIM in a few months....is that right?  If your goal is to finish each distance then no problem, have a blast....you can do it easily.  If your goal is to be competitive, you may be going about this backwards by my way of thinking.

2014-09-29 9:20 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
Originally posted by Left Brain

3Mar - what are your goals in triathlon?  I'm curious because it seems, from reading your posts, that you want to be a competitive AG'er........you have done a sprint, an Oly that didn't go well, and your next race is a HIM in a few months....is that right?  If your goal is to finish each distance then no problem, have a blast....you can do it easily.  If your goal is to be competitive, you may be going about this backwards by my way of thinking.




Can't it be both? I'm half-joking with that one. My goal is to finish a HIM and IM in the "finish and have fun" category, but along the way become competitive, or a least start on the road to being competitive for shorter distances (Oly's and sprints) which is where I'll focus when those are done. The question on training duration was actually more towards the finish and have fun category, because, I was certainly not having fun at the end of the Oly and going into the HIM, I want to make sure I have a lot of base to build on. The competitive part I know is a way off. I just don't have the chops on the bike to really think about it right now. I just can't shake the competitive part out of my head right now because it's such a tease coming out of the water FOP that it's really hard for me to just ignore that and just "finish".



(cant it be both.jpg)



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2014-09-29 9:23 AM
in reply to: briderdt

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
Originally posted by briderdt

My theories on workout duration(s):

* Be able to swim the race distance hard and not be totally wrecked at the end.

* Be able to run 1.5x the race distance at moderate pace.

* Biking is a different animal to me -- less traumatic (as long as you don't crash). I have a progression of readiness (depending on how you want to "race"). First is being able to ride the race distance and be able to run after, speed irrelevant. Second is to be able ride the race distance hard and be able to run after. Third is to be able to ride the time duration that you'd expect the entire event to take, speed somewhat irrelevant. Fourth is to be able to ride the time duration that you expect for the entire event, but hard.

So it seems your ride is in that "third" region, so I don't think it's so much your training as your nutrition on race day. Bonking is about running out of available energy, not developed endurance. What did you eat before and during the event?




I'm digging the formulas you've got there. I may be misusing the word "bonking". I haven't ever experienced that before and I just felt like my body was shutting down. I had about 400 calories pre race, mostly carbs and some protein. I was fully hydrated, but could have drank more water during. It was insanely hot and I think dehydration may have played a role as well.I had to stop and walk three times in the last two miles. I have never had to walk during a race in my life.


2014-09-29 9:38 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
I think you just hit the nail on the head... not enough calories pre-race (and how pre-race was it?? meaning just before or a couple hours) and no calories (only water) during. If it's hot you have to replace that stuff or the run only gets harder.

You need to work on your nutrition plan. Especially if you plan to do a HIM, this will become a much uglier problem.

2014-09-29 9:39 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

3Mar - what are your goals in triathlon?  I'm curious because it seems, from reading your posts, that you want to be a competitive AG'er........you have done a sprint, an Oly that didn't go well, and your next race is a HIM in a few months....is that right?  If your goal is to finish each distance then no problem, have a blast....you can do it easily.  If your goal is to be competitive, you may be going about this backwards by my way of thinking.

Can't it be both? I'm half-joking with that one. My goal is to finish a HIM and IM in the "finish and have fun" category, but along the way become competitive, or a least start on the road to being competitive for shorter distances (Oly's and sprints) which is where I'll focus when those are done. The question on training duration was actually more towards the finish and have fun category, because, I was certainly not having fun at the end of the Oly and going into the HIM, I want to make sure I have a lot of base to build on. The competitive part I know is a way off. I just don't have the chops on the bike to really think about it right now. I just can't shake the competitive part out of my head right now because it's such a tease coming out of the water FOP that it's really hard for me to just ignore that and just "finish".

I think it can be both.....but it takes quite a bit of work at the sprint/oly distance to make that happen.   That being said, "finish and have fun" is a great goal!

2014-09-29 9:43 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
Originally posted by Left BrainThat being said, "finish and have fun" is a great goal!


Man, if I could follow that (not just in triathlon but in all aspects of life) my life would be whole lot simpler. I've given up on even trying to fight it at this point. I'm just and "all in" type of person. Even my wife has stopped fighting it (and even learned to embrace) it after 10 years. I'm no stranger to hard work, and actually it's what I live for. This race was a really good lesson though.
2014-09-29 9:44 AM
in reply to: Ned42

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
Originally posted by Ned42

I think you just hit the nail on the head... not enough calories pre-race (and how pre-race was it?? meaning just before or a couple hours) and no calories (only water) during. If it's hot you have to replace that stuff or the run only gets harder.

You need to work on your nutrition plan. Especially if you plan to do a HIM, this will become a much uglier problem.




I was at a hotel and there was nowhere to get "real" food that early so I was stuck with whatever I could carry with me. I normally eat quite a bit before workouts, so maybe that was it. I think the hydration was also part of it.
2014-09-29 9:49 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left BrainThat being said, "finish and have fun" is a great goal!
Man, if I could follow that (not just in triathlon but in all aspects of life) my life would be whole lot simpler. I've given up on even trying to fight it at this point. I'm just and "all in" type of person. Even my wife has stopped fighting it (and even learned to embrace) it after 10 years. I'm no stranger to hard work, and actually it's what I live for. This race was a really good lesson though.

A truly fast triathlon is built with a lot of time, hard work, and PATIENCE.



2014-09-29 9:55 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Ned42 I think you just hit the nail on the head... not enough calories pre-race (and how pre-race was it?? meaning just before or a couple hours) and no calories (only water) during. If it's hot you have to replace that stuff or the run only gets harder. You need to work on your nutrition plan. Especially if you plan to do a HIM, this will become a much uglier problem.
I was at a hotel and there was nowhere to get "real" food that early so I was stuck with whatever I could carry with me. I normally eat quite a bit before workouts, so maybe that was it. I think the hydration was also part of it.

I wouldn't blame it all on nutrition. Yes, you could have done better, but this was a HOT race, at a distance you've never done before. You likely outraced your fitness for the given conditions.

My first Oly definitely saw me walking a bit on the run, and then not on the next one. Learned a bit about pacing!

Now, pushing towards being mroe competitive, my long rides are 2.5ish hours (done weekly through many weeks leading up to the race, sometimes with a 2-3 mile run afterwards), and my long runs got up to 10 miles w/ 6 @ tempo. Those started shorter, but always contained a section at a faster pace. I swam with my masters team, so most swims were 3000-3500 yds. I finished in a 2:33 (super happy!) but I did walk a few times on the run -> partially a physical problem, partly mental. Build toughness, move on to the next one!

2014-09-29 9:59 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
I would guess that your issues during the race are almost certainly tied to pacing; over 2:45 of racing, going a little too fast on the swim (very probable for someone with a swim background) going a little too hard on the bike (almost certain as you mentioned bearing issues with your front wheel and fighting that) and you are not going to run to potential. A solid 10k after 1500m swim and 40km bike takes good pacing and it takes practice to get that right.

For a novice at the oly distance, a rough race plan would look like:

Swim - a little easier than you think you should be going - at all points you should feel like you could comfortably keep the effort up for the remainder of the swim AND feel strong out of the water
Bike - a moderate effort - a little harder than an easy cruise but definitely not into the range of hard at any point. If you don't feel like you could keep the effort up through the 40km, it's time to ease off.
Run - try to hit about 30-60s/mile slower than open 10k through the first mile or so and then build slightly through the run.

Shane
2014-09-29 10:00 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

I really do not think you can expect to go to your first race and be "competitive" or it would be rare. I know in my triathlon journey (from indoor to sprint to Olympic to HIM to IM) I have learned something at each first race of that distance that really helped me get faster the next time I raced that distance. My 1st OLY ever was a 3:55, the next year, I was able to cut it to 2:57, and I really think it was because I knew what to expect and learned what I need to focus on during training, the same can be said for HIM. I am doing my second IM in 2015, I am really expecting a better time because I have the experience under my belt and I know more of what to expect. 

 

So I say all of that to say this, don't let one race be the gauge of your success at a new distance. Learn from it and make the adjustments in your training and go from there

2014-09-29 11:11 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
Originally posted by gsmacleod

I would guess that your issues during the race are almost certainly tied to pacing; over 2:45 of racing, going a little too fast on the swim (very probable for someone with a swim background) going a little too hard on the bike (almost certain as you mentioned bearing issues with your front wheel and fighting that) and you are not going to run to potential. A solid 10k after 1500m swim and 40km bike takes good pacing and it takes practice to get that right.

For a novice at the oly distance, a rough race plan would look like:

Swim - a little easier than you think you should be going - at all points you should feel like you could comfortably keep the effort up for the remainder of the swim AND feel strong out of the water
Bike - a moderate effort - a little harder than an easy cruise but definitely not into the range of hard at any point. If you don't feel like you could keep the effort up through the 40km, it's time to ease off.
Run - try to hit about 30-60s/mile slower than open 10k through the first mile or so and then build slightly through the run.

Shane


I did the first half of the swim too hard I'm sure. I was mixing it up with the college kids and trying to break free of the pack. I did manage to slow my roll for the last 500 meters or so and came out of the water feeling really good. The small group I was swimming with slowed with me, so I'm not sure if I was following them or the other way around. I tried my best to keep the bike in the range you noted, but pushed past it anyway. I think it was a good learning experience overall in pacing, nutrition and hydration.

Edit: one thing on the bike; I honestly didn't know how long my bike would last. It sounded like it was about to fall apart the whole time, and part of me was pushing hard just to get as close as I could to the finish so I wouldn't have to DNF.

Edited by 3mar 2014-09-29 11:15 AM
2014-09-29 8:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
Shane has it bang on with his comments about pacing.

Another thing-- sucks what happened to your bike, but you CAN have a safe, working aluminum bike that does't do what yours did.

You'll do better with a better bike, but you still have to make sure you don't burn out on the pacing.

Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-09-29 9:09 PM


2014-09-30 7:28 AM
in reply to: briderdt

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

Originally posted by briderdt

My theories on workout duration(s):

* Be able to swim the race distance hard and not be totally wrecked at the end.

* Be able to run 1.5x the race distance at moderate pace.

* Biking is a different animal to me -- less traumatic (as long as you don't crash). I have a progression of readiness (depending on how you want to "race"). First is being able to ride the race distance and be able to run after, speed irrelevant. Second is to be able ride the race distance hard and be able to run after. Third is to be able to ride the time duration that you'd expect the entire event to take, speed somewhat irrelevant. Fourth is to be able to ride the time duration that you expect for the entire event, but hard.

So it seems your ride is in that "third" region, so I don't think it's so much your training as your nutrition on race day. Bonking is about running out of available energy, not developed endurance. What did you eat before and during the event?

Those theories on workout duration get thrown out the window if training for a HIM or IM or we would be running up to 40 miles at a time or biking for 10+ hours.

I'm fine your thought process for short course racing though.

2014-09-30 8:33 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
If you're expecting quick results and competitive finishing times, you have quite simply chosen the wrong sport. This is more about the journey, the process, the patience, the tedium, the learning, than it is about the race. The race, by the time it comes, is nothing more than pure execution. You know exactly what will happen and you minimize the mistakes and unexpected factors. Congratulations on catching the bug - triathlon is an immensely enjoyable sport - but the humility required to embark on this process are far greater than can be answered in any amount of posting on a website.
2014-09-30 10:00 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by briderdt

My theories on workout duration(s):

* Be able to swim the race distance hard and not be totally wrecked at the end.

* Be able to run 1.5x the race distance at moderate pace.

* Biking is a different animal to me -- less traumatic (as long as you don't crash). I have a progression of readiness (depending on how you want to "race"). First is being able to ride the race distance and be able to run after, speed irrelevant. Second is to be able ride the race distance hard and be able to run after. Third is to be able to ride the time duration that you'd expect the entire event to take, speed somewhat irrelevant. Fourth is to be able to ride the time duration that you expect for the entire event, but hard.

So it seems your ride is in that "third" region, so I don't think it's so much your training as your nutrition on race day. Bonking is about running out of available energy, not developed endurance. What did you eat before and during the event?

Those theories on workout duration get thrown out the window if training for a HIM or IM or we would be running up to 40 miles at a time or biking for 10+ hours.

I'm fine your thought process for short course racing though.

Actually, for competitive HIM, I'd maintain the above distances apply. For IM, though, all bets are off.

2014-09-30 10:38 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?
Originally posted by fisherman76

If you're expecting quick results and competitive finishing times, you have quite simply chosen the wrong sport. This is more about the journey, the process, the patience, the tedium, the learning, than it is about the race. The race, by the time it comes, is nothing more than pure execution. You know exactly what will happen and you minimize the mistakes and unexpected factors. Congratulations on catching the bug - triathlon is an immensely enjoyable sport - but the humility required to embark on this process are far greater than can be answered in any amount of posting on a website.


I'm not expecting to win or even place OA overnight. I'm not sure where you are getting that. I crashed at the end of the race and was asking advice as to doing the proper training not to crash. The original post didn't say anything about being competitive, or winning, it was about having the proper base to finish strong. The discussion turned to speaking of goals and I noted that I do want to be competitive, but definitely didn't say "today". I'm simply looking for advice. I do believe I will be competitive eventually, but that's not what this post was about; it was about not bonking. I also noted in either this, or another post, that this triathlon certainly taught me humility, if not for the sport, at least for the heat. I've been in endurance athletics a long time, so I'm not new to that. I'm not new to running, and although I've been away a while, I'm not new to swimming either (and I'm certainly not "dusting it up in the pack" in that sport for certain). Overall I would say, regardless of the rough finish, finishing a large triathlon in the top 15% and finishing the swim in the top 5% are commendable after only three months of true triathlon training. I don't expect the get all the answers here, but I have a lot of questions, and I'm pretty sure that's kind of the point of the website, isn't it?
2014-09-30 11:31 AM
in reply to: briderdt

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

Originally posted by briderdt

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by briderdt

My theories on workout duration(s):

* Be able to swim the race distance hard and not be totally wrecked at the end.

* Be able to run 1.5x the race distance at moderate pace.

* Biking is a different animal to me -- less traumatic (as long as you don't crash). I have a progression of readiness (depending on how you want to "race"). First is being able to ride the race distance and be able to run after, speed irrelevant. Second is to be able ride the race distance hard and be able to run after. Third is to be able to ride the time duration that you'd expect the entire event to take, speed somewhat irrelevant. Fourth is to be able to ride the time duration that you expect for the entire event, but hard.

So it seems your ride is in that "third" region, so I don't think it's so much your training as your nutrition on race day. Bonking is about running out of available energy, not developed endurance. What did you eat before and during the event?

Those theories on workout duration get thrown out the window if training for a HIM or IM or we would be running up to 40 miles at a time or biking for 10+ hours.

I'm fine your thought process for short course racing though.

Actually, for competitive HIM, I'd maintain the above distances apply. For IM, though, all bets are off.

So you'd do 20 mile training runs or ride for 5-6 hours in HIM training?  Yes, that's a very loaded question.



2014-09-30 11:52 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Training Duration vs Race Duration?

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by briderdt

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by briderdt

My theories on workout duration(s):

* Be able to swim the race distance hard and not be totally wrecked at the end.

* Be able to run 1.5x the race distance at moderate pace.

* Biking is a different animal to me -- less traumatic (as long as you don't crash). I have a progression of readiness (depending on how you want to "race"). First is being able to ride the race distance and be able to run after, speed irrelevant. Second is to be able ride the race distance hard and be able to run after. Third is to be able to ride the time duration that you'd expect the entire event to take, speed somewhat irrelevant. Fourth is to be able to ride the time duration that you expect for the entire event, but hard.

So it seems your ride is in that "third" region, so I don't think it's so much your training as your nutrition on race day. Bonking is about running out of available energy, not developed endurance. What did you eat before and during the event?

Those theories on workout duration get thrown out the window if training for a HIM or IM or we would be running up to 40 miles at a time or biking for 10+ hours.

I'm fine your thought process for short course racing though.

Actually, for competitive HIM, I'd maintain the above distances apply. For IM, though, all bets are off.

So you'd do 20 mile training runs or ride for 5-6 hours in HIM training?  Yes, that's a very loaded question.

For top level amateur competition -- Undoubtedly yes on the ride, and look at any national caliber at that distance runner's schedule. You do realize that's not an every day schedule, right?

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