General Discussion Triathlon Talk » When to incorporate strength training? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2014-10-01 2:55 AM


2

Subject: When to incorporate strength training?
Hi!


I am new at training for a triathlon. I have been building up my swim, runs, and bike for few months now. I have been reading a lot about incorporated strength training into my workouts, and all the benefits it has for triathletes. When doing these workouts, should I be strength training the same days as my normal swim, bike, and run days? Should I do them in one session at the gym or spread them out during the day? My question is what is the best way to go about adding in lifting weights? Should I do a run and then lift, or lift and then go for a run?
Thanks!
Nikki

Edited by Nclark12 2014-10-01 2:58 AM


2014-10-01 7:18 AM
in reply to: #5055649


16

Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
My trainer has me strength training 2x week. I do them on a cycling days. I work nights and 13 hours shifts I do a strength workout when I get home in the morning then sleep and go for my ride. If you are a 9-5 worker maybe strength in the morning and endurance training in the evening or vice versa. My workouts consist of a total body strength training.
2014-10-01 8:22 AM
in reply to: Nclark12

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

What are your goals?  Strength training may or may not be helpful for triathletes.  Generally, you should principally swim, bike & run to meet your triathlon goals.  You should add strength training in the event that you have known muscular imblances (or an injury you are rehabbing) or because you have other fitness goals in addition to triathlon. 

2014-10-01 8:45 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

User image

Melon Presser
52116
50005000500050005000500050005000500050002000100
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

What are your goals?  Strength training may or may not be helpful for triathletes.  Generally, you should principally swim, bike & run to meet your triathlon goals.  You should add strength training in the event that you have known muscular imblances (or an injury you are rehabbing) or because you have other fitness goals in addition to triathlon. 

This.

For females over 30-35, it's particularly important in terms of bone density and muscle mass. However, this would be regardless of triathlon.

Strength training also does not have to mean weight training. There's plenty of swim, bike, and run specific strength training you can do if a major goal is to improve your triathlon performance (and/or maximize your training time in these disciplines).

2014-10-01 9:40 AM
in reply to: #5055663

User image

New user
140
10025
Sanford, Florida
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
Strength Training has a LOT of general benefits and is certainly not recommended ONLY in the case of muscular imbalances.

It is ALWAYS good to add some strength training.

Why?....... Because it prevents injuries.

On YouTube you can find exercise for swimming to prevent swimming shoulder for example. Or how about strengthening your CORE? Also important. Or exercise to prevent runners knee. The list goes on.

A good and strong core will make improvements on running, biking and swimming.

You can do a total body work out 2x per week on the day that you bike.

Good luck!
2014-10-01 9:52 AM
in reply to: Martine1975

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

Originally posted by Martine1975 Strength Training has a LOT of general benefits and is certainly not recommended ONLY in the case of muscular imbalances. It is ALWAYS good to add some strength training. Why?....... Because it prevents injuries. On YouTube you can find exercise for swimming to prevent swimming shoulder for example. Or how about strengthening your CORE? Also important. Or exercise to prevent runners knee. The list goes on. A good and strong core will make improvements on running, biking and swimming. You can do a total body work out 2x per week on the day that you bike. Good luck!

Unless you have a KNOWN imbalance, then ST has generally not been shown to do anything for overuse injuries (the kind most likely to plague triathletes--including swimming shoulder, runners knee, and the list goes on).  In some cases (probably not the majority), ST could even exacerbate an imblance and increase the liklihood of future injury.  If you play a lot of soccer, basketball or other sports, then ST may help prevent some types of injuries in those sports.  Swimming, biking and running are all excellent ways to strengthen your core.  But do more if you like.

Strength train because you enjoy it.  Because you think it important for developing bone density.  Because you like the way it makes you feel/look.  Because you do have a known imbalance or injury that you can treat with a targeted program.  But don't assume that a total body workout is doing much for triathlon-related injury prevention.



2014-10-01 11:43 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

User image

Veteran
930
50010010010010025
Morgan Hill, California
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
This year my goal is to incorporate more yoga. I don't know the benefits of ST, but I think I need the yoga to counter some of the positions I find myself in S/B/Ring extensively. I do feel myself getting more flexible, whether that will translate into S/B/R we'll have to find out.
2014-10-01 3:57 PM
in reply to: Martine1975

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

Originally posted by Martine1975 Strength Training has a LOT of general benefits and is certainly not recommended ONLY in the case of muscular imbalances. It is ALWAYS good to add some strength training. Why?....... Because it prevents injuries. On YouTube you can find exercise for swimming to prevent swimming shoulder for example. Or how about strengthening your CORE? Also important. Or exercise to prevent runners knee. The list goes on. A good and strong core will make improvements on running, biking and swimming. You can do a total body work out 2x per week on the day that you bike. Good luck!

Be careful with over-generalizing.  For specific conditions, the right exercise prescription can reduce the odds of injury.  A connection between general strength training and injury rates has not been established.  Also, youtube has a lot of good exercise ideas, but it has even more examples of terrible information coupled with atrocious technique demonstrations.  FWIW, the best way to prevent shoulder exercises from swimming is improving your swimming technique, not doing strength training.

Otherwise, I agree with the sentiment that ST is a good idea for almost everyone, but for varying reasons from person to person.

 

2014-10-01 5:06 PM
in reply to: Nclark12

User image

Regular
606
500100
Portland, Oregon
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
Please post the articles you read and how your current training load applies to their recommendations.
Through a lot of reading, I back the notion that most recreational athletes are no where the point where strength training is yet necessary. If you like it and can do it on top of S/B/R, cool! If you will be sacrificing those training hours to spend time with weights, then it will most likely be an inefficient use of time and hurt your overall fitness.
2014-10-01 7:05 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

. . . Strength training may or may not be helpful for triathletes.  Generally, you should principally swim, bike & run to meet your triathlon goals . . .

I'm not sure I entirely agree.  How can becoming stronger NOT be helpful.  If the argument is that there is no time to fit additional strength training in, then we have something we can debate.  I would agree, if it comes down to which is more important - S/B/R or strength training - then strength training likely should take a back seat unless there are other issues (muscle imbalance, recovering from injury, etc.).

Dave Scott and Mark Allen - between them there are 18 Ironman podium finishes, including 12 wins - both strongly advocate strength training to some degree. That's good enough for me.

2014-10-01 7:19 PM
in reply to: k9car363

User image

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
Originally posted by k9car363

I'm not sure I entirely agree.  How can becoming stronger NOT be helpful.



Because endurance sport is not strength limited.

Shane


2014-10-01 10:05 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by k9car363

I'm not sure I entirely agree.  How can becoming stronger NOT be helpful.



Because endurance sport is not strength limited.

Shane


except for those that are limited by their strength. You can have a strong engine, but you need a strong frame too.
2014-10-01 10:12 PM
in reply to: Nclark12

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
Originally posted by Nikki127

Hi!


I am new at training for a triathlon. I have been building up my swim, runs, and bike for few months now. I have been reading a lot about incorporated strength training into my workouts, and all the benefits it has for triathletes. When doing these workouts, should I be strength training the same days as my normal swim, bike, and run days? Should I do them in one session at the gym or spread them out during the day? My question is what is the best way to go about adding in lifting weights? Should I do a run and then lift, or lift and then go for a run?
Thanks!
Nikki


Think of strength training as a supplement or enhancement to your aerobic training NOT a substitution.

Always do your KEY workouts and aerobic work first. Sometimes best to strength train right after a light workout as the body is already appropriately warmed up.

I like to prescribed strength workouts on lighter days, NOT days off. Days off are best (for those with very busy lives) to limit the stress on the body to make the adaptions needed.

Just as your triathlon specific training is all built with goals in mind, your strength training should do the same. Address weaknesses and imbalances. For example, if you run and your hips are dropping you have poor glute strength, focus on building your glutes and your posterior chain (RDL's, Front Squats, Glute Bridges, etc)
2014-10-01 10:12 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Expert
2192
2000100252525
Greenville, SC
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

I used to be a huge supporter of strength training for endurance sports.  Not anymore.  Cutting out time in the gym for an extra swim/bike/run workout instead has been huge for me.  that being said I'll step back into the weight room in the winter and cry about my upper body strength but catch people mirin on leg day. 



Edited by Clempson 2014-10-01 10:13 PM
2014-10-01 10:15 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

User image

Expert
2192
2000100252525
Greenville, SC
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

Originally posted by bcagle25 Always do your KEY workouts and aerobic work first. Sometimes best to strength train right after a light workout as the body is already appropriately warmed up.

disagree. two words: glycogen stores. 

2014-10-01 10:57 PM
in reply to: Clempson

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
Originally posted by Clempson

Originally posted by bcagle25 Always do your KEY workouts and aerobic work first. Sometimes best to strength train right after a light workout as the body is already appropriately warmed up.

disagree. two words: glycogen stores. 




That was under the caveat that proper fueling took place...if needed. But like I said before strength training should be done on lighter days. You will not deplete your glycogen storage on a light day.


2014-10-01 11:01 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

User image

Expert
2192
2000100252525
Greenville, SC
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by Clempson

Originally posted by bcagle25 Always do your KEY workouts and aerobic work first. Sometimes best to strength train right after a light workout as the body is already appropriately warmed up.

disagree. two words: glycogen stores. 

That was under the caveat that proper fueling took place...if needed. But like I said before strength training should be done on lighter days. You will not deplete your glycogen storage on a light day.

I can agree with that.  I'd never do strength on a key or big workout day.  

2014-10-02 7:16 AM
in reply to: 0


1660
10005001002525
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

. . . Strength training may or may not be helpful for triathletes.  Generally, you should principally swim, bike & run to meet your triathlon goals . . .

I'm not sure I entirely agree.  How can becoming stronger NOT be helpful.  If the argument is that there is no time to fit additional strength training in, then we have something we can debate.  I would agree, if it comes down to which is more important - S/B/R or strength training - then strength training likely should take a back seat unless there are other issues (muscle imbalance, recovering from injury, etc.).

Dave Scott and Mark Allen - between them there are 18 Ironman podium finishes, including 12 wins - both strongly advocate strength training to some degree. That's good enough for me.

 

Being stronger is NOT necessarily helpful for triathlon.

 

Having significant muscle mass, esp in the upper body is a penalty in triathlon. A middling high school football player that lifts weights regularly would be physically stronger for most motions for single-max reps than the top pros at Kona. 

 

Also, do not confuse strength with muscular endurance. Strength is better used as the max force for low reps, like a benchpress or squat. Muscular endurance is different - that is force over MANY reps (hundreds if not thousands), like the swim motion.

 

And just because Dave Scott recommends it, doesn't mean it's automatically correct for triathlon. Endurance sports has tons of controversial topics that are espoused by world-class coaches and athletes. Even Alberto Salazar, in training Dathan Ritzenhein (one of the top prior US runners) for the marathon, strongly advocated focusing heavily on modifying is run technique, which is and still remains a highly controversial approach. 

 

A big problem with the strength training bit for injury prevention in triathlon is also that most of it is anecdotal and taken from athletes in other sports. In impact or high-torque sports like basketball, strength training absolutely protects against injury since those max forces are used a lot more often. Not the case in triathlon, where the injuries are overwhelmingly due to repetitive type overuse. Even acute strains from VO2-intensity intervals fall into this type, and strength training will not prevent them. (Otherwise powerlifters and other weight training athletes would be totally injury resistant in triathlon - which is totally false.) Even the muscle imbalance theories in triathlon can be argued against; triathlon actually encourages imbalance in muscular endurance as fits the activity. A great swimmer will have great muscular endurance for the catch, but be lousy in an extension type motion that reverse the arm pull and emphasizes extension. In fact, you can easily argue that the better muscular endurance you have in the tri-specific motions (and thus more imbalanced you are since the non-tri motions are weaker), the better a triathlete you will be.

 

Strength training gives big benefits for quality of life, and in many max force-type sports. Triathlon performance, though, is not one of them, and the injuries in triathlon are better prevented by just being more careful and methodical about building more SBR than doing less SBR and doing more weights.



Edited by yazmaster 2014-10-02 7:19 AM
2014-10-02 8:47 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?

There is plenty of "strength training" that can be done within the confines of s/b/r.  The overspeed treadmill with high incline or very high speed intervals is an example. Sessions pulling a tire across a football field will make you a stronger runner, and do wonders for your forward lean.   Paddles and parachutes in swimming is another example.  I watch swimmers every Sunday do a "strength" workout....some of it includes being harnessed  to a weight stack with an elastic rope as you swim 25's......and then swimming back as the weight stack falls.....overspeed swim work.  Hill repeats on the bike is strength work.....and on and on.

Everybody likes to think of weights as soon as someone mentions strength work.  The truth is, strength work will make you fast as hell....you just need to change the way you think of the work.  

When to incorporate it?  Probably when your coach tells you that you're ready for it.......quite a bit of it is pretty advanced stuff.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-10-02 8:49 AM
2014-10-02 8:47 AM
in reply to: Nclark12

User image


107
100
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
I lift weights to look good. I do TRX BODYWEIGHT Exercises at high rep counts to help my SBR fitness. Do i understand that having strong arms and chest won't help me? Yes, but I do it anyway. The long and the short of it is that you need to be happy and enjoy the time you spend on your fitness. Achieve this by being brutally honest with yourself regarding your goals in this sport.

I'm 33. Skinny. Had been a smoker (both cigarettes and marijuana) for the past 17 years. I haven't done competitive since my junior year of high school. I realize that I will probably never podium, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up. I will continue to strive for a chance to one day race at a world championship event. But I also am realistic that I have other goals besides SBR. I'm not skinny shamed anymore, because I have put on mass from lifting. My self confidence is higher and that's worth it's weight in gold.

I'm lifting "big" weight only 1 day a week, usually 2 to 6 hours after a light/easy work out. I also do endurance lifting/circuit training 1 day a week focusing on SBR muscle groups. The rest of the time it's SBR. Indoors, outdoors, in the rain, in the sun and I love it. I notice things like my lats being stronger and my swim times improving, my quads and hamstrings feeling less fatigued after a 50 mile ride, my watts are getting bigger. Is this because I do more SBR or because I'm physically stronger? It's due to BOTH and I'm happy with that.

Be happy yourself.
2014-10-02 8:48 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: When to incorporate strength training?
Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

. . . Strength training may or may not be helpful for triathletes.  Generally, you should principally swim, bike & run to meet your triathlon goals . . .

I'm not sure I entirely agree.  How can becoming stronger NOT be helpful.  If the argument is that there is no time to fit additional strength training in, then we have something we can debate.  I would agree, if it comes down to which is more important - S/B/R or strength training - then strength training likely should take a back seat unless there are other issues (muscle imbalance, recovering from injury, etc.).

Dave Scott and Mark Allen - between them there are 18 Ironman podium finishes, including 12 wins - both strongly advocate strength training to some degree. That's good enough for me.

 

Being stronger is NOT necessarily helpful for triathlon.

 

Having significant muscle mass, esp in the upper body is a penalty in triathlon. A middling high school football player that lifts weights regularly would be physically stronger for most motions for single-max reps than the top pros at Kona. 

 

Also, do not confuse strength with muscular endurance. Strength is better used as the max force for low reps, like a benchpress or squat. Muscular endurance is different - that is force over MANY reps (hundreds if not thousands), like the swim motion.

 

And just because Dave Scott recommends it, doesn't mean it's automatically correct for triathlon. Endurance sports has tons of controversial topics that are espoused by world-class coaches and athletes. Even Alberto Salazar, in training Dathan Ritzenhein (one of the top prior US runners) for the marathon, strongly advocated focusing heavily on modifying is run technique, which is and still remains a highly controversial approach. 

 

A big problem with the strength training bit for injury prevention in triathlon is also that most of it is anecdotal and taken from athletes in other sports. In impact or high-torque sports like basketball, strength training absolutely protects against injury since those max forces are used a lot more often. Not the case in triathlon, where the injuries are overwhelmingly due to repetitive type overuse. Even acute strains from VO2-intensity intervals fall into this type, and strength training will not prevent them. (Otherwise powerlifters and other weight training athletes would be totally injury resistant in triathlon - which is totally false.) Even the muscle imbalance theories in triathlon can be argued against; triathlon actually encourages imbalance in muscular endurance as fits the activity. A great swimmer will have great muscular endurance for the catch, but be lousy in an extension type motion that reverse the arm pull and emphasizes extension. In fact, you can easily argue that the better muscular endurance you have in the tri-specific motions (and thus more imbalanced you are since the non-tri motions are weaker), the better a triathlete you will be.

 

Strength training gives big benefits for quality of life, and in many max force-type sports. Triathlon performance, though, is not one of them, and the injuries in triathlon are better prevented by just being more careful and methodical about building more SBR than doing less SBR and doing more weights.




playing some devils advocate here

You can build ALOT of strength and NOT put on a large amount of lean body tissue. Hypertrophy training isn't really required.

I agree that injury prevention is more of overuse injuries in triathlon, but strength training can reduce those injuries. Think of strength training as a way of "undoing" all those repetitive movements. For ex. work the hip flexors in the opposite fashion

I agree on the sentiments shared about Dave Scott, etc.

Strength training can also teach people how to effectively and correctly use their body. It's amazing how many athletes (both triathletes and other sport athletes) do not know how to use their glutes, core, lats, etc correctly. This can easily be spotted by people just walking sometimes. The caveat to fix this however, is to work with a coach at your side.



New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » When to incorporate strength training? Rss Feed  
RELATED POSTS

Incorporating a 50k trail run training into triathlon training

Started by neilcarter
Views: 2481 Posts: 10

2013-08-04 9:32 AM tedjohn

Incorporating strength training into triathlon training Pages: 1 2 3

Started by yoitsbeau
Views: 7237 Posts: 74

2011-11-20 12:47 PM SportzVision

Incorporating Cross-Training into your Power Training?

Started by DRLski
Views: 855 Posts: 2

2009-07-27 6:46 PM DrPete

Incorporating Strength Training

Started by jam33
Views: 901 Posts: 4

2008-05-01 2:31 PM chadtower

Incorporating weights into training plan for first sprint...

Started by bmilmine
Views: 885 Posts: 4

2006-03-15 11:44 AM nbo10
RELATED ARTICLES
date : October 31, 2012
author : TINKARRA
comments : 0
Most of the races are flat here, but I live in the area where I could do hilly rides with 1500-2000m of climbing. Is there much benefit with that if I am racing flat?
 
date : July 7, 2012
author : alicefoeller
comments : 0
Is strength training critical for a triathlete? How can strength training help an athlete improve performance? What are the downsides?
date : May 22, 2012
author : Andy Sloan
comments : 2
This article looks into the types of exercises triathletes need to be utilizing, and why traditional methods are of little use.
 
date : April 27, 2012
author : Andy Sloan
comments : 5
An insight into how to train strength and condition for triathlon and endurance sports success
date : July 8, 2008
author : sportfactory
comments : 0
Training and racing with your body type mostly means a more analytical approach to both. Here are a few ways you can tip the genetic scale.
 
date : December 4, 2007
author : mrakes1
comments : 0
A quick and easy 20 minute at home strength training workout. This is a freeweight workout, so only a few dumbbells are needed.
date : July 9, 2007
author : sportfactory
comments : 0
While training on a stationary bike could never fully substitute time on the road, there are many workouts you can perform to work on a piece of your cycling.
 
date : December 27, 2004
author : trixie
comments : 0
Exactly what type of weight training does a triathlete need?