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2014-10-06 1:15 PM

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Subject: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
This weekend, I went to someplace other than my normal LBS. This shop specializes in high end bikes, and will pretty much build up anything that you want. They ask what you are looking for in a bike, take your measurements, then build up a few bikes for you to test ride. They asked what type of riding I do. I told them that I do shorter triathlons, that I love to wander for hours on my bike, and that I find challenging mountains irresistible. I said that I was looking for a compact double with an 11-28t cassette. They said that one of the things some riders do is get a semi-compact with an 11-32t cassette. It gives them the same lowest gear for climbing, but a faster highest gear for racing. Then, if there is some super challenging climb like the Westernport wall, I could easily swap out the chain and crankset for a compact and go even lower on the gearing.

That seems a little crazy to me, in part because I don't know anyone who has done that. Does anyone here have experience with that sort of gearing setup?


2014-10-06 1:28 PM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop

What specifically were they going to use for the "semi-compact"? I've heard that before, but it's been just marketing terms for putting the biggest rings they could onto a Compact Crankset, one with the 110 mm bolt circle. Likely a 52/36 (or maybe 38?). Some people do ok with an 11-32T, but others hate it as the gaps between each gear are larger. I'd be hunting all the time between gears, so would only go for it if I really needed that wide of a range.

2014-10-06 1:34 PM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop

Yeah, I've heard the term mid-compact, 52-36.  I may go that route next year (currently ride a compact).   But I would not go with an 11-32 for the reasons ben states above, way too many gaps in there.  I find even a 12-30 leaves something to be desired.   I spin out pretty quickly in a 50 x 12 compact, I think I would prefer a 52 x 11 perhaps, but then again I am kind of a wuss descending so anything over 30 I am coasting anyway.

As for swapping out, I change to an11-23 cassette for flatter races, 12-30 for hills.  I wouldn't swap out chainrings/cranks for a race

2014-10-06 1:41 PM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
I run a 50/34 compact double with an 11 speed 11-28 cassette on my road bike - love the set up!
We have plenty of hills/mountains around here... and I, so far, always seem to find a reasonable gear to use.

I suppose I could swap cassettes to get a 32 on the back for some super steep climb - but, I doubt I'd swap cranks for that reason.
2014-10-06 1:47 PM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
My tri bike had a 52/36 with a 11-25 cassette. All shifting was super smooth, however to get a better fit this year I had the crank changed out to get shorter crank arms. In the process my new crank is a 56/34, which I was worried about but my LBS said it would work. So I have been riding that all season and yes the 56/34 shifts without a problem and gives me lower gears than I had with the same high gears.
2014-10-06 2:01 PM
in reply to: happyscientist


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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
So a semi compact is 52/36 vs the 50/34 on a compact? And... they said that people are getting the 11-32 with the semi compact? Then they went on to say that the riders routinely switch out to a compact for the more challenging hills? That is only getting them the 34x32 combo vs the 36x32 combo. I don't see many people switching cranks to get that.

To use the 32 tooth cassette I am going to think that you are going to need to use a mtb rear DR. If I had a mtb RD on the semi compact I would switch cassettes to a 12-34 before switching cranks. I would actually be surprised that there are many high end road bike buyers that are getting this setup. I assume they built a few and the sales person has turned that into a trend.

To be honest if I was trying to solve a problem such as this I would think a 53/39/30 with an 11-28 in back would make sense. With that you could use a road RD (with a long cage to handle the chain wrap), if you really needed to go lower you could go with the mtb RD and swap out the cassette. I know that there is negative views of a triple but I they can be set up properly (I have one on my mtb).

As far as similar gearing I have a bike with 52/42 upfront and 11-32 in back. But 42x32 is pretty comparable to a compact running 34x25 or a traditional 39x28. It is a frankenbike (84 puegeot with 8 speed Sora shifters and a Alivio mtb RD). So I do have experience in dealing with a large back cassette on a road bike.


2014-10-06 2:17 PM
in reply to: RockTractor

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
Even with 11 speeds, I am a bit concerned about the gaps with an 11-32t. My bike came with a 10 speed 11-25t that I swapped out for 11-28t, and the gear that is missing is apparently one that I used all the time. Eleven speeds are supposed to address that issue. To go any higher than 28t would require a different rear derailleur, and they said that for the bikes that I was looking at, it was easier to swap out the front gears than the back. Apparently (they showed me the cranksets, and it is definitely different that what I am used to) you can just swap out individual gears instead of the entire set.

It is something to think about. There are only a few times that I would like an easier gear. One is for Savageman. I would love to get that brick. Another is Mt. Washington in New Hampshire. I am planning on taking a crack at that next year. Mt. Evans in CO is another one that comes to mind.

They were talking about building up bikes with multiple gear configurations. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
2014-10-06 2:20 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop

Originally posted by mike761 My tri bike had a 52/36 with a 11-25 cassette. All shifting was super smooth, however to get a better fit this year I had the crank changed out to get shorter crank arms. In the process my new crank is a 56/34, which I was worried about but my LBS said it would work. So I have been riding that all season and yes the 56/34 shifts without a problem and gives me lower gears than I had with the same high gears.

Are you on the new Dura Ace? I'm not sure what else could actually bolt that up let alone get to shift.

2014-10-06 2:38 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
I did find this article, which I thought was interesting.
http://www.roadiemanila.com/2013/03/mid-compact-rising.html
2014-10-06 2:43 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by mike761 My tri bike had a 52/36 with a 11-25 cassette. All shifting was super smooth, however to get a better fit this year I had the crank changed out to get shorter crank arms. In the process my new crank is a 56/34, which I was worried about but my LBS said it would work. So I have been riding that all season and yes the 56/34 shifts without a problem and gives me lower gears than I had with the same high gears.

Are you on the new Dura Ace? I'm not sure what else could actually bolt that up let alone get to shift.




Ultegra derailers, with DA shifters

I was worried at first but it shifts fine, however much more noticeable of a shift than the 36 was. Since I have a lot of hills in my area I decided to give it a shot, and it's not a problem. I still have the 36 gear in a box if I ever want to put it back on.
2014-10-06 3:06 PM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop

Originally posted by happyscientist I did find this article, which I thought was interesting. http://www.roadiemanila.com/2013/03/mid-compact-rising.html

That article can be semi-helpful, but can also show what I'm talking about. Many front setups use a 5-bolt arrangement to attach the rings. These bolts have a diameter around the bottom bracket, 110 or 130 mm. 110 is compact, 130 is standard. People not knowing this tended to assign the chainring size to compact or standard instead. The 52/36 is a compact crankset. The term "mid-compact" was made to try and market this. I ride a 54/42. This is on a Standard crank. It's not an XL Standard or any such thing as it still uses the 130mm bolt diameter. Just a set of 54/42 rings on a Standard size crank.

The new Shimano set (The FC-9000) is redesigned and only has the 4 arms to bolt instead of more typical 5. Also in this design are stronger rings that can go much bigger than the 52T upper limit of previous setups, but still use the compact bolt circle diameter so that the smaller inner ring can still be used. This design is what's shown in the linked article to demonstrate the "mid-compact" vs compact. This new design could actually bolt up a 56/34, but I have no idea if that would actually shift well, hence my question to Mike.



2014-10-06 3:20 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by mike761 My tri bike had a 52/36 with a 11-25 cassette. All shifting was super smooth, however to get a better fit this year I had the crank changed out to get shorter crank arms. In the process my new crank is a 56/34, which I was worried about but my LBS said it would work. So I have been riding that all season and yes the 56/34 shifts without a problem and gives me lower gears than I had with the same high gears.

Are you on the new Dura Ace? I'm not sure what else could actually bolt that up let alone get to shift.

Ultegra derailers, with DA shifters I was worried at first but it shifts fine, however much more noticeable of a shift than the 36 was. Since I have a lot of hills in my area I decided to give it a shot, and it's not a problem. I still have the 36 gear in a box if I ever want to put it back on.

I was asking about the crankset and the feasability of even bolting up those size rings. Before even thinking of shifting performance. It seems that Shimano has come out with the 4-arm design in Ultegra now too (in addition to the Dura Ace model). So if you do actually have 56/34 this is what your crankset is. This will not work on many other Ultegra, Dura Ace, or other lines entirely because the bolt hole spacing is different. Mostly be a caution so people don't go right out and get various ring sizes and wonder why they can't get them mounted. The new design is very interesting, but wanted to make sure it was that new design.

2014-10-06 3:25 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by happyscientist I did find this article, which I thought was interesting. http://www.roadiemanila.com/2013/03/mid-compact-rising.html

That article can be semi-helpful, but can also show what I'm talking about. Many front setups use a 5-bolt arrangement to attach the rings. These bolts have a diameter around the bottom bracket, 110 or 130 mm. 110 is compact, 130 is standard. People not knowing this tended to assign the chainring size to compact or standard instead. The 52/36 is a compact crankset. The term "mid-compact" was made to try and market this. I ride a 54/42. This is on a Standard crank. It's not an XL Standard or any such thing as it still uses the 130mm bolt diameter. Just a set of 54/42 rings on a Standard size crank.

The new Shimano set (The FC-9000) is redesigned and only has the 4 arms to bolt instead of more typical 5. Also in this design are stronger rings that can go much bigger than the 52T upper limit of previous setups, but still use the compact bolt circle diameter so that the smaller inner ring can still be used. This design is what's shown in the linked article to demonstrate the "mid-compact" vs compact. This new design could actually bolt up a 56/34, but I have no idea if that would actually shift well, hence my question to Mike.




I generally bump my rear two gears now before shifting the front, since its such a big change. I can't really imaging the 56/34, that would be a huge change. Technically I think it would work, but I don't think you would want to shift that front derailer much.
2014-10-06 4:47 PM
in reply to: mike761


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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
The rear derailleur's capacity needs to be looked at when a discussion about gears occurs. Typically, the "short cage" rear derailleur can only handle a 28 tooth or smaller cassette. Larger cassettes require a different (larger) rear derailleur. Then one must consider the front chain ring difference., If one would use a 54T large front with a 38 small front chain ring, that is a difference of 14T. The typical short cage rear derailleur has a capacity of 28T, meaning in this case one could use a 12-26, 11-25 rear cassette without exceeding the short cage rear derailleur capacity.

It is my 2 cents that most of the Jane and Joe Six-pack triathletes (20-22 mph averages) would benefit from customizing their rear cassettes so there is an one tooth difference between 14-15-16-17-18-19 cogs. This would leave one with 4 or 5 more cassette cogs to add for the "hills". One could add the 110mm bolt center compact cranks and still keep the chain in the middle of the cassette most of the time for easy shifting. Spinning out in a 50-12 going down a hill means one is traveling greater than 32mph. Your average is more dependent upon the flats or up-hills than super fast down-hills.
2014-10-07 1:48 AM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
I've used 52/36 with 12-32 10 speed rear cassette. For training...it's fine. Allows me to pretty much go up any hill I want to. I think 11-32 would get annoying though with that much spacing. If I had 11 speed, I wouldn't mind going 11-32 though as it's the same spacing as 10 speed 11-28 or 12-32. I usually race with 11-26. 52/12 is still a pretty huge gear. Unless your planning to sprint or bomb downhills...that should be enough gear. The only reason i have 52/11 is for road races with sprint finishes.
2014-10-08 8:49 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop

Can someone please explain in layman's terms?

My mechanic has suggested that I go to a mountain bike cassette. But he recommended to wait till I get a bike with an 11 speed since I'm on an "older" bike.



2014-10-08 10:39 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
Where do you even find a 56t chainring? Let alone one on a crankset that accomodates a 34t as well? Are you pushing like 6 W/KG FTP? Do you occasionally take it off and serve a large pizza on it at parties?

My mind is boggled.


Personally, I know weight doesn't matter much but it still matters. I'd rather be on the smallest lightest gearing I could be both front and back with the smallest gear spacing possible which means I'd want to be spinning out a Compact 50/34 with an 11-21 before I went with a bigger crank, but that's just me.

50/11 @ 90 RPM is 32 MPH
50/11 @ 100 RMP is 35 MPH

Even in Utah racing I'm not spinning that out going downhill, and if I was I'd be better off tucking and coasting anyway.
2014-10-08 11:31 AM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop

I switched all my bikes to a 52/36 set up this year.  Not sure why I didn't do it sooner.  I run a 11/25 in the back most of the time which works fine even for climbs of 7% for a few miles.  If I do some serious climbs then I'll swap to an 11/28 cassette.  

2014-10-08 11:39 AM
in reply to: turtlegirl

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Subject: RE: Interesting conversation at the bike shop
Originally posted by turtlegirl

Can someone please explain in layman's terms?

My mechanic has suggested that I go to a mountain bike cassette. But he recommended to wait till I get a bike with an 11 speed since I'm on an "older" bike.




Your mechanic is being vague when he says mountain bike cassette. That could be several different gear setups. He is probably recommending a big "dinner plate" gear in the back. My mt bike has a 10 speed 11-36t cassette, meaning that the smallest gear in the back has 11 teeth, and the largest has 36. I have seen them go up to 42. The more teeth you have on the back, the easier the gear will be. It is the opposite for the front.

What this bike shop guy that I spoke to was suggesting was that I get a wider range in the back with an easier gear, but a harder setup in the front.

What type of gearing you go with will depend on your terrain, the type of riding that you do, and your fitness.
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