General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Baking Soda good for sore muscles? Rss Feed  
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2014-10-09 9:06 PM

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Subject: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Hi there,

http://www.livestrong.com/article/485588-baking-soda-for-sore-muscl...

Do any of you have a good experience with this? Baking soda really really tastes gross.


2014-10-09 9:59 PM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?

Not for muscle soreness but the kids and I will have a pinch of baking soda when we have an upset stomach. My daughter has trouble digesting a lot of different foods. When she eats something that does not agree with her we give her a pinch of baking soda and it seems to decrease the length and severity of her issues.

 

2014-10-09 10:37 PM
in reply to: #5058475


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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
I tought the point was to use it in the bath. Similar to when you want to diminish pain from infections or insect bites: http://www.med-health.net/Baking-Soda-Bath.html
2014-10-09 10:48 PM
in reply to: Antoine tri

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Originally posted by Antoine tri

I tought the point was to use it in the bath. Similar to when you want to diminish pain from infections or insect bites: http://www.med-health.net/Baking-Soda-Bath.html


No, that link actually says you should drink it...
The general recommended intake is about 200 to 300 mg per kilogram of body weight mixed with 1 l of water.


They say the basic solution helps draw out lactic acid from your muscles! Hmmm...bases don't attract acids, they neutralize them when mixed.
Here is a meta-analysis of this in action: http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/8388767
I don't want to read any more than the abstract (hungry, want beer), but the two big points from that abstract were:
"results have been inconsistent and often contradictory."
"But in comparing the 19 studies that showed a positive treatment effect (about half)...were associated with a greater increase in pH following ingestion of a somewhat larger dosage, and a greater decrease in pH with exercise."

So, dig into that review, and perhaps the 25 source studies and report back with their proposed mechanism of action.
2014-10-10 1:26 AM
in reply to: #5058496

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Was wondering whether people here on this forum have a positive reaction to baking soda. It's cheap and would be nice if it helps.
2014-10-10 4:58 AM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
First, assuming your muscles are sore from training, there is good evidence to suggest that steps to reduce muscle soreness actual dull training effect.

Second, muscle soreness is not caused by lactic acid (which doesn't exist in the body) so trying to buffer it makes little sense.

Third, the human body does a fantastic job of maintaining pH within a very small range and what we eat/drink has a very small impact on pH in the body.

Finally, while there are some studies that indicate a slight benefit (usually performance as I recall not decrease soreness), there is also the risk of severe GI distress so even discounting the other three points, I would not use baking soda in training or racing.

Shane


2014-10-10 9:16 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
No baking soda, but a bath with Epson Salts (high in magnesium) really helps.
2014-10-10 9:59 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?

Originally posted by gsmacleod First, assuming your muscles are sore from training, there is good evidence to suggest that steps to reduce muscle soreness actual dull training effect. Second, muscle soreness is not caused by lactic acid (which doesn't exist in the body) so trying to buffer it makes little sense. Third, the human body does a fantastic job of maintaining pH within a very small range and what we eat/drink has a very small impact on pH in the body. Finally, while there are some studies that indicate a slight benefit (usually performance as I recall not decrease soreness), there is also the risk of severe GI distress so even discounting the other three points, I would not use baking soda in training or racing. Shane

Shane beat me to it.

^^^Everything he said^^^

On a side note, I'm a little surprised to see an article that is such crap on Livestrong.  Even though some of the stuff I've seen on there is questionable, I don't recall ever seeing an article this far off the mark.

 

2014-10-10 10:03 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?

baking soda is very processed and mining is bad for the planet

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Baking-Soda.html

2014-10-10 10:16 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by gsmacleod First, assuming your muscles are sore from training, there is good evidence to suggest that steps to reduce muscle soreness actual dull training effect. Second, muscle soreness is not caused by lactic acid (which doesn't exist in the body) so trying to buffer it makes little sense. Third, the human body does a fantastic job of maintaining pH within a very small range and what we eat/drink has a very small impact on pH in the body. Finally, while there are some studies that indicate a slight benefit (usually performance as I recall not decrease soreness), there is also the risk of severe GI distress so even discounting the other three points, I would not use baking soda in training or racing. Shane

Shane beat me to it.

^^^Everything he said^^^

On a side note, I'm a little surprised to see an article that is such crap on Livestrong.  Even though some of the stuff I've seen on there is questionable, I don't recall ever seeing an article this far off the mark.

 




Yes, this.

Thanks Shane.

The Livestrong article shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the buffering in the body works, as well as how "lactic acid" causes muscle soreness (i.e., it doesn't).
2014-10-10 11:18 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Originally posted by topolina

No baking soda, but a bath with Epson Salts (high in magnesium) really helps.


x2 and you can apply arnica often after very intense workouts

PS...great article instead:


http://running.competitor.com/2010/01/training/the-lactic-acid-myth...


Edited by TJHammer 2014-10-10 11:25 AM


2014-10-10 11:33 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
On this lactate topic, I'd also be curious to see what some of you guys feel about Beta-Alanine usage

Edited by TJHammer 2014-10-10 11:33 AM
2014-10-10 11:43 AM
in reply to: dfroelich


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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Originally posted by dfroelich

Originally posted by Antoine tri

I tought the point was to use it in the bath. Similar to when you want to diminish pain from infections or insect bites: http://www.med-health.net/Baking-Soda-Bath.html


No, that link actually says you should drink it...
The general recommended intake is about 200 to 300 mg per kilogram of body weight mixed with 1 l of water.


They say the basic solution helps draw out lactic acid from your muscles! Hmmm...bases don't attract acids, they neutralize them when mixed.
Here is a meta-analysis of this in action: http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/8388767
I don't want to read any more than the abstract (hungry, want beer), but the two big points from that abstract were:
"results have been inconsistent and often contradictory."
"But in comparing the 19 studies that showed a positive treatment effect (about half)...were associated with a greater increase in pH following ingestion of a somewhat larger dosage, and a greater decrease in pH with exercise."

So, dig into that review, and perhaps the 25 source studies and report back with their proposed mechanism of action.


I will pretend I am knowledgeable which Is definitively not the case. On theorical basis, baking soda being a base, wouldn't it get neutralized by the stomach acid before reaching the lactic acid anyway?

p.s. I honestly won't pretend I understand even half of that article.
2014-10-10 12:22 PM
in reply to: Antoine tri

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?

Originally posted by Antoine tri
Originally posted by dfroelich
Originally posted by Antoine tri I tought the point was to use it in the bath. Similar to when you want to diminish pain from infections or insect bites: http://www.med-health.net/Baking-Soda-Bath.html
No, that link actually says you should drink it...
The general recommended intake is about 200 to 300 mg per kilogram of body weight mixed with 1 l of water.
They say the basic solution helps draw out lactic acid from your muscles! Hmmm...bases don't attract acids, they neutralize them when mixed. Here is a meta-analysis of this in action: http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/8388767I don't want to read any more than the abstract (hungry, want beer), but the two big points from that abstract were: "results have been inconsistent and often contradictory." "But in comparing the 19 studies that showed a positive treatment effect (about half)...were associated with a greater increase in pH following ingestion of a somewhat larger dosage, and a greater decrease in pH with exercise." So, dig into that review, and perhaps the 25 source studies and report back with their proposed mechanism of action.
I will pretend I am knowledgeable which Is definitively not the case. On theorical basis, baking soda being a base, wouldn't it get neutralized by the stomach acid before reaching the lactic acid anyway? p.s. I honestly won't pretend I understand even half of that article.

The short answer is 'yes'.

 

2014-10-10 12:25 PM
in reply to: mehaner

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?

Originally posted by mehaner

baking soda is very processed and mining is bad for the planet

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Baking-Soda.html

Well played!    

 

2014-10-10 3:44 PM
in reply to: #5058475

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
O thanks! I didn't know that it is processed and I don't want to be responsible for damage to the earth (as far as I can prevent it.

I also was thinking about the fact that baking soda gets nutrilized in the acid stomach and that's why it helps for heartburn.

In that case I'll just stick to apple cider vinegar for my sore (heavy) muscles.


2014-10-10 4:16 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?

Originally posted by TJHammer
Originally posted by topolina No baking soda, but a bath with Epson Salts (high in magnesium) really helps.
x2 and you can apply arnica often after very intense workouts

This combination has worked extremely well for me lately. Bonus that arnica gel doesn't smell like Bio Freeze - no scent at all!

2014-10-10 4:20 PM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?

Originally posted by Martine1975 O thanks! I didn't know that it is processed and I don't want to be responsible for damage to the earth (as far as I can prevent it. I also was thinking about the fact that baking soda gets nutrilized in the acid stomach and that's why it helps for heartburn. In that case I'll just stick to apple cider vinegar for my sore (heavy) muscles.

so what do you think vinegar does for sore muscles?

2014-10-10 5:27 PM
in reply to: #5058746

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
2014-10-10 6:28 PM
in reply to: Martine1975


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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Racehorses used to get 'milkshaked' with baking soda to reduce lactic acid and fatigue -- but they milkshaked them before the race, so maybe there'd be some positive effect if you did it before your race, I don't know.

It is now illegal to milkshake horses and there are tests to determine if a horse has been treated as such, so maybe you wouldn't want to do it as a human either.

If you're curious:
http://www.equiforce.com/bicarbonate-loading-in-horses.aspx
2014-10-10 6:55 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Originally posted by gsmacleod

First, assuming your muscles are sore from training, there is good evidence to suggest that steps to reduce muscle soreness actual dull training effect.

Second, muscle soreness is not caused by lactic acid (which doesn't exist in the body) so trying to buffer it makes little sense.

Third, the human body does a fantastic job of maintaining pH within a very small range and what we eat/drink has a very small impact on pH in the body.

Finally, while there are some studies that indicate a slight benefit (usually performance as I recall not decrease soreness), there is also the risk of severe GI distress so even discounting the other three points, I would not use baking soda in training or racing.

Shane


Slow down just a little bit. There are a couple key things in your statement that are misleading this discussion.
Firstly, yes, there is no lactic acid in the body...only lactate. Let's give them (LS) the benefit of the doubt that they know this and are simply appealing to their readers by using familiar, albeit incorrect terms because...
Secondly, there certainly is acidosis at muscle tissue. Please read here: http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/287/3/R502and this could certainly be neutralized if injested baking soda increased blood pH...which despite going through the acidic ringer of the stomach...it does http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/287/3/R502(this actually surprised me).

Finally, if this does indeed sound like a good idea to you...don't overdo it each dose, and certainly don't make it a habit. Besides whatever funky tummy grumbles you'll get from the chemistry experiment inside you, once you go off it there are some bad possibilities since your body has finally gotten used to your new found high pH lifestyle and has responded in turn http://www.ajemjournal.com/article/0735-6757(94)90200... .


2014-10-13 8:02 PM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
Originally posted by dfroelich

Originally posted by gsmacleod

First, assuming your muscles are sore from training, there is good evidence to suggest that steps to reduce muscle soreness actual dull training effect.

Second, muscle soreness is not caused by lactic acid (which doesn't exist in the body) so trying to buffer it makes little sense.

Third, the human body does a fantastic job of maintaining pH within a very small range and what we eat/drink has a very small impact on pH in the body.

Finally, while there are some studies that indicate a slight benefit (usually performance as I recall not decrease soreness), there is also the risk of severe GI distress so even discounting the other three points, I would not use baking soda in training or racing.

Shane


Slow down just a little bit. There are a couple key things in your statement that are misleading this discussion.
Firstly, yes, there is no lactic acid in the body...only lactate. Let's give them (LS) the benefit of the doubt that they know this and are simply appealing to their readers by using familiar, albeit incorrect terms because...
Secondly, there certainly is acidosis at muscle tissue. Please read here: http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/287/3/R502and this could certainly be neutralized if injested baking soda increased blood pH...which despite going through the acidic ringer of the stomach...it does http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/287/3/R502(this actually surprised me).

Finally, if this does indeed sound like a good idea to you...don't overdo it each dose, and certainly don't make it a habit. Besides whatever funky tummy grumbles you'll get from the chemistry experiment inside you, once you go off it there are some bad possibilities since your body has finally gotten used to your new found high pH lifestyle and has responded in turn http://www.ajemjournal.com/article/0735-6757(94)90200... .

all of what you said, except that soreness (DOMS) is not caused by lactic acid OR lactate.


The idea of taking it PRIOR to a workout is that it can buffer the hydrogen ions, freeing up more lactate to be recycled into fuel and driving the chemincal equation "to the right" by "removing" the hydrogen ions making the chemical conversion of glucose -> ATP more effective. (taking away products on one side of the equation allows products on the left to keep being converted driving the reaction forward. Or somethign like that. Any chemists or biochemists here?

Anyway...a totally different thing than drinking baking soda AFTER you train for some thing that is caused by a totally different and not completely understood mechanism.
2014-10-13 8:13 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Baking Soda good for sore muscles?
The other thing to remember is that muscle soreness is a normal part of training; sore muscles from hard workouts usually means that your muscles are repairing and building. Just wait till the soreness goes away before training hard again; in the meantime do easy workouts. You shouldn't be doing hard workouts more than once every couple days.
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