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2014-10-18 1:09 PM

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Subject: Intermittent Fasting and performance
http://breakingmuscle.com/nutrition/intermittent-fasting-for-athlet...

Hi all,

I was wondering whether you guys have experience with fasting for health or religion and how/or it affects performance.

Have you fasted with just water, or juice, and for how long did you fast?


2014-10-18 2:47 PM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
I did 18 hour fast and 8 hour eating for a month or so before a race. I lost quite a few pounds just by doing that.

I liked it I would not eat from 8pm until 12pm the next day. It just generally helped limit the number of calories I was eating in a given day. I tend to sit a lot at work and that doesn't help much. But, I found I was unable to really train/work out very hard without eating something before. My usual workout would be during my lunch break. I found that if I didn't have something on my stomach then my performance tended to suffer.

All in all I like it. It is a simple and effective way to control some bad eating habits.

When I do eat something first thing in the morning I am just as hungry at 1030-1100 than when I wasn't.
Key was to drink some coffee in the morning and then keep drinking was throughout the midmorning until your first meal.

2014-10-18 10:02 PM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
The best you can hope for is to drop a couple pounds with minimal decrease in training effectiveness. More likely, you'll sabotage your training sessions by wearing out too quickly and you'll be missing out on the all important rebuilding phase since your body doesn't have fuel for all those little microinjuries. Possibly, you'll seriously injure yourself. I have felt plenty wobbly on the bike which was quickly rescued by refilling blood sugar, and that was when I had burned through a solid breakfast.

It is a terrible idea. Eat food then burn the food. Repeat.
2014-10-18 10:18 PM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Not sure it's a good idea for anyone (unless a necessary part of religious observance) and definitely a bad idea for athletes. Have never fasted (if I wasn't eating, it would be because I was really sick, and thus wouldn't be training) but over the years I have had plenty of Muslim students and some adult acquaintances who fast during Ramadan. Kids are generally excused from PE and sports during this time.They also get the option to read in the library rather than going out to recess. A few kids have insisted on doing active recess/PE/sports, but those are often the ones that get dizzy and light-headed later in the day. Probably not dehydration either as many of them drink water during the day (things are a bit more lenient for kids, at least the Malaysians and Indonesians I've had). So it would seem to me that fasting and training don't mix. Recovery and energy levels would be seriously impacted, and I'm guessing you'd also tend to overeat also after breaking the fast. I know those families really feast once the sun goes down!

If you have a religious reason to fast, you'd need to adjust the timing of your training, such as getting in both the workout and a very substantial breakfast before sunrise, which is what the Muslim athletes I know usually do. If not, I'd focus instead on developing sustainable healthy eating habits.
2014-10-19 6:29 AM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
I sometimes go up to three hours without eating anything........ Man is that tough.

I guess I don't eat anything while I sleep either, so I guess that I fast overnight......

The above should be in pink. It is dry humor

Weight tends to not be a problem for me. I have a set point and my body maintains it almost automatically, within about 5 pounds, plus or minus. When I am training hard I crave carbs, sweets, salt, protein, etc and I try to satisfy my cravings. When I cut the training back, my body knows it doesn't need as much and those huge hunger urges shut right down. My wife always asks me if there is anything wrong during taper weeks because I eat so much less.
2014-10-21 10:58 PM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
I fasted twice a year , 3 days at a time. I did this while doing "couch to sprint" (training for my 1st tri) training 6 months ago. It's a water and Gatorade fast. I did not have problem with performance. The "couch to sprint training" ( http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/training-plan... does not last more than hour.

I fast because of my belief plus health purpose. I've read articles ( and tried ) by Gittleman https://experiencelife.com/article/fast-track-liver-detox/. I want to give my liver a break. I also drank the Miracle Juice during the fast. Result : skin (face) problem went away without going to the doctor and taking any medicine.

I only fast when I'm off from work and don't have obligations outside. My husband fasts too so it's easier for me because I only have to cook for my daughter.

Now, I only fast on Sundays when there's no tri training (also off from work). I'm on Intermediate Sprint Training (some training days last 3 hours-brick).


2014-10-21 11:49 PM
in reply to: #5061097

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
I have done a daily IF on and off with great results. I ate only between 6pm and 10pm. I took in about 2k calories between my dinner + snack. I leaned out, especially in my waist, and felt pretty good. It was nice sleeping in an extra 20 min because I didn't have to eat breakfast or prep lunch.

I kept my workouts long and slow, except for the pool. I found if I took it easy I would get cold, so I went hard

I train about 7 hours per week and don't beat myself up so much that I have to eat tons of food.
2014-10-22 7:22 AM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by dfroelich

The best you can hope for is to drop a couple pounds with minimal decrease in training effectiveness. More likely, you'll sabotage your training sessions by wearing out too quickly and you'll be missing out on the all important rebuilding phase since your body doesn't have fuel for all those little microinjuries. Possibly, you'll seriously injure yourself. I have felt plenty wobbly on the bike which was quickly rescued by refilling blood sugar, and that was when I had burned through a solid breakfast.

It is a terrible idea. Eat food then burn the food. Repeat.


What are you basing your opinion on? An incident when you felt "wobbly on the bike" after eating a "solid breakfast?" Just curious why you think it is a terrible idea?
2014-10-22 1:17 PM
in reply to: 5stones

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by 5stones

Originally posted by dfroelich

The best you can hope for is to drop a couple pounds with minimal decrease in training effectiveness. More likely, you'll sabotage your training sessions by wearing out too quickly and you'll be missing out on the all important rebuilding phase since your body doesn't have fuel for all those little microinjuries. Possibly, you'll seriously injure yourself. I have felt plenty wobbly on the bike which was quickly rescued by refilling blood sugar, and that was when I had burned through a solid breakfast.

It is a terrible idea. Eat food then burn the food. Repeat.


What are you basing your opinion on? An incident when you felt "wobbly on the bike" after eating a "solid breakfast?" Just curious why you think it is a terrible idea?


Sorry, I wasn't clear. The filling breakfast didn't cause that, but the energy crash after burning through it did.

Allow me to expand. When I get low blood sugar, I get a bit light-headed. This translates to poor balance and being 'wobbly on the bike'. I am sure you have felt the same thing. Stopping for a bit to eat some food rescues that. If you start out doing any sort of exercise on an already empty tank, you'll hit that point much faster. This is a second reason why fasting is a terrible idea. (The first is that it WILL compromise your rebuilding after training.) It can potentially be dangerous if it leads to a crash.

There are only 2 reasons why people fast that are somewhat decent:
A) your religion - Sure thing, go for it. The point here is that you knowingly are making a sacrifice for your beliefs. It may be a spiritual boon, but don't delude yourself that it is benefiting you physiologically.
B) weight loss - Restricting calories is obviously a great way to drop pounds. Although, limiting each meal by 1/7th will cut the same calories as a weekly fast, but without the crazy blood sugar swings and subsequent hormonal imbalances.
2014-10-22 5:15 PM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
I heard a fasting discussion on an NPR talk show (Diane Rehm Show) earlier this summer that seemed pretty interesting. The "guests" promoted a 5:2 fasting program, where they ate normally 5-days a week and restricted their caloric intake to around 500-calories 2-days a week. The discussion said that, at this point, research into risks & benefits is thin, and the few studies done to date are all over the place......some showing significant benefit and some not. They said this program is a lot more popular in the UK than it is in the US. They talked about a multi-year study done quite a while ago in Europe of senior citizens where hospitalization and death rates were cut in half for faster vs non-fasters.

One part of the discussion that I thought was interesting centered around changes in eating patterns over the last century or two. From a historical perspective, three meals a day for most humans was certainly not the norm or the way people lived for thousands of years. Obviously our ancestors faced much bigger risks of malnutrition and starvation, but the claim is that, from an evolutionary perspective, we've actually adapted to the periodic fast. This makes a lot of sense to me.....if you're in hunter-gatherer mode and you begin to shut-down after a day or two of not eating, then it would seem that your chances of finding something to eat on day 3 get even slimmer and so on and so on.

I'm more of a binge eater than a faster, but the benefits discussed on the show, and the anecdotal stories and experiences of the callers seemed pretty interesting. I don't remember anyone who called in saying they'd had a negative experience or were having health or lifestyle issues.
2014-10-22 6:41 PM
in reply to: g_shotts

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
I'll try to hunt down that discussion. I don't have the time right now to dive into that, but on the surface there are a few big issues that immediately jump out from your description.
1) the study with seniors goes counter to evolutionary past of forced fasting. If the seniors in the study were older than the normal life expectancy in our semi-recent evolutionary past, then the two have nothing to do with each other.
2) The general assumption that is shared with paleo diet that what was best for us 'then' is still best for us 'now'. This example (forced fasting) is even more closely tied to our evolutionary history... Even if we all had to eat the paleo way, there would still be better hunter/gatherers. Those people would be more evolutionarily fit, and so would presumably pass on more genes. Therefore, our likely ancestors were the better hunters and did not have as much forced fasting as the average, so-so hunter, and so we would've evolved along those lines instead.
3) Even if all our ancestors were equally adept hunters, and we all descend from forced fasted ancestors, there is no reason to believe that we are better off with periods of no food. Perhaps we are simply equipped with some damage control pathways that activate when we starve ourselves so that we don't break down catastrophically. Just because we can handle it, it doesn't mean we are better off with it.

So...those are my 3 big points. I didn't cite anything, because it is all basic text book biology or devil's advocate style questions.
The point is this: When someone proposes a new treatment/cure/method/whatever that appears counter to what is established,they hold the burden of proof. I have read no studies that show that benefits of fasting that outweigh the many, many negatives.
Please share some if you have it!


2014-10-22 8:15 PM
in reply to: #5061949

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
The best study is self study of trial and error.

Go on a fast and see what it does to your body.
2014-10-22 8:47 PM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by Martine1975

The best study is self study of trial and error.

Go on a fast and see what it does to your body.


Forgive me, but that is crazy talk! And I'm sorry, but most of this thread is also concerning. Self study of trial and error when it come to highly restrictive caloric intake, just study those that have gone on a hunger strike, or those forced into starvation, the results are not good. As for those who feel that we have 'built in' fasting adaptations due to our hunter/gatherer ancestry, you are correct, it's called fat storage. The body will adapt to the situations presented to it. If you reduce caloric intake, and keep calorie expenditure the same you will loose weight. It may be fat, it may be muscle, or maybe a combination. You will also force your body to adapt, but adapt to what? Periods of starvation, followed by a short period of excessive food intake? The best studies a scientific, structured, double-blind, cross population ones. Those studies indicate that small meals, multiple times a day (total calorie intake not exceeding your daily needs) provide the best approach.

2014-10-22 8:56 PM
in reply to: #5062271

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
I'm sorry, bad idea to listen to your own body's natural ability.

We should listen to others who tell us what to do. And listen to the FDA.

I didn't know it was life threatening to not eat for a day or 2......oeps....
2014-10-23 12:03 AM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by Martine1975

The best study is self study of trial and error.

Go on a fast and see what it does to your body.


That is a terrifying thought.
How do you filter the enormous body of crazy nonsense that gets published everyday? I certainly don't think you do a "self study of trail and error" of every crack pot notion that pops up on the web...of course not. So, why do you think intermittent fasting is something to experiment and not hypnosis, crystal therapy, magnets or perhaps a training regimen based on your horoscope?
What makes one unscientific, disproven blog post worthy of a shot if not that which has been actually rigorously studied in a setting that strives to eliminate all confounding variables?

2014-10-23 1:38 AM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Seems like it's worthy of consideration from a health point of view. I bolded the part I found most interesting.

Beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and caloric restriction on the cardiovascular and cerebrovascular systems.
Mattson MP1, Wan R.
Author information
Abstract
Intermittent fasting (IF; reduced meal frequency) and caloric restriction (CR) extend lifespan and increase resistance to age-related diseases in rodents and monkeys and improve the health of overweight humans. Both IF and CR enhance cardiovascular and brain functions and improve several risk factors for coronary artery disease and stroke including a reduction in blood pressure and increased insulin sensitivity. Cardiovascular stress adaptation is improved and heart rate variability is increased in rodents maintained on an IF or a CR diet. Moreover, rodents maintained on an IF regimen exhibit increased resistance of heart and brain cells to ischemic injury in experimental models of myocardial infarction and stroke. The beneficial effects of IF and CR result from at least two mechanisms--reduced oxidative damage and increased cellular stress resistance. Recent findings suggest that some of the beneficial effects of IF on both the cardiovascular system and the brain are mediated by brain-derived neurotrophic factor signaling in the brain. Interestingly, cellular and molecular effects of IF and CR on the cardiovascular system and the brain are similar to those of regular physical exercise, suggesting shared mechanisms. A better understanding of the cellular and molecular mechanisms by which IF and CR affect the blood vessels and heart and brain cells will likely lead to novel preventative and therapeutic strategies for extending health span.


2014-10-23 11:42 AM
in reply to: #5062282

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Hypnosis, Crystal Therapy and even Your Horoscope are good things to experiment with icw your sport performance.
2014-10-23 11:43 AM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by Martine1975

Hypnosis, Crystal Therapy and even Your Horoscope are good things to experiment with icw your sport performance.


So evidenced based practice isn't critical to you then?

Shane
2014-10-23 11:53 AM
in reply to: #5062433

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
No, it's not critical.

The guy who discovered that oranges cure scurvy was not believed.

The guy who discovered that apricot seeds cure cancer is not believed.

The FDA are criminals.
2014-10-23 11:56 AM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by Martine1975

The best study is self study of trial and error.

Go on a fast and see what it does to your body.


There is a lot of information out on IF, some good and some bad. Before you try anything you should educate yourself as much as possible.

I'm not saying it is good or bad, however if you are going to try fasting and then exercise you better understand how you are going to react to that. If you don't you could wind up in the hospital or dead.

I have fasted and exercised to depletion. It was under supervision during a university study. I would suggest that if you exercise while fasting you stay down in zone 1 and 2 and stay well hydrated and if you feel light headed or faint at all you stop immediately.
2014-10-23 11:57 AM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by Martine1975

No, it's not critical.

The guy who discovered that oranges cure scurvy was not believed.

The guy who discovered that apricot seeds cure cancer is not believed.

The FDA are criminals.


In that's case, you should check out Ben Greenfield; he'll sell you every manner of snake oil you could think of.

Shane


2014-10-23 1:34 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
I am eagerly awaiting the full text for this article! (Reseachgate is excellent for paywalled pubs!)

The first thing that jumps out to me is that they hypothesize the benefits are for overweight people specifically, and that the effect of IF merely triggers the same mechanisms as exercise. This is a cool thought and makes a lot of sense. When you exercise, you decrease your energy stores. When you don't eat, but continue normal metabolic actions, you decrease energy stores. Makes sense to me! Of course, this won's elicit any fitness response. I wonder if they have a control that ate the same calories as the IF group, but spaced more normally? ...But, I will not try to infer anymore until I read the darn thing. Thanks for the lead!
2014-10-23 1:43 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by Martine1975

Hypnosis, Crystal Therapy and even Your Horoscope are good things to experiment with icw your sport performance.

Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by Martine1975

No, it's not critical.

The guy who discovered that oranges cure scurvy was not believed.

The guy who discovered that apricot seeds cure cancer is not believed.

The FDA are criminals.


In that's case, you should check out Ben Greenfield; he'll sell you every manner of snake oil you could think of.

Shane




Watch out. Several of his super-sweet bodyhacks are approved by the FDA.
2014-10-23 2:03 PM
in reply to: Martine1975

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by Martine1975

The best study is self study of trial and error.

Go on a fast and see what it does to your body.


Aren't you the same person who has posted tons about having major health issues from excessive burnout and are still trying to recover fully? Not the time to go messing around with fasting IMHO.
2014-10-23 2:13 PM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: Intermittent Fasting and performance
Originally posted by dfroelich

Originally posted by Martine1975

Hypnosis, Crystal Therapy and even Your Horoscope are good things to experiment with icw your sport performance.

Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by Martine1975

No, it's not critical.

The guy who discovered that oranges cure scurvy was not believed.

The guy who discovered that apricot seeds cure cancer is not believed.

The FDA are criminals.


In that's case, you should check out Ben Greenfield; he'll sell you every manner of snake oil you could think of.

Shane




Watch out. Several of his super-sweet bodyhacks are approved by the FDA.


But if the FDA is filled with criminals, then their endorsement of Ben Greenfield may be criminal. And if the superbody hacks, squatty potty, magic bracelet and special water don't work, then I don't eve know what to believe in.

Shane
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