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2014-10-24 9:17 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

What about ST that is s/b/r based? 

Almost everyone who has ever posted on the topic has said that most sport specific work is beneficial.  It's very debateable HOW beneficial some of the things you listed may be (eg, paddles, parachute, massive kick sets, pulling weight stacks) and for many athletes those are probably activities that they don't need to worry about trying to figure out how to incorporate into their training.  But more 'basic' things like hill repeats (bike or run), strides, higher intensity intervals, etc., are all things that most triathletes can easily work into their training and gain significant added benefits from just 'steady state' endurance training.



2014-10-24 10:42 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by jonnyoRiding 3 times a week and doing 3 strength training session is better than riding 3 times a week., But it s not as good as riding 6 times a week.

A very simple concept that for whatever reason gets ignored by many.

Most of us have finite time to workout.  Let's say you can get in 12 workouts per week.  If your goal is overall fitness then I have no issues with doing something like 3 swim, 3 bike, 3 run, 3 strength training.  If the goal is to become a better triathlete the person would most benefit from all 12 of those workouts being S/B/R.  It's that simple.

I have no issues with ST.  I have issue with folks that think replacing a SBR workout with ST somehow is better for triathlon (or the triathlon activities) than the SBR workout.

What about ST that is s/b/r based?  I don't do any of it, but my kid does quite a bit of it...... swimming with paddles, parachute, massive kick sets, and even pulling weight stacks...... hours and hours of hill repeats on the bike, overspeed treadmill run sessions and tons of intervals.....all strength work, but all incorporated into s/b/r workouts.  The results have been excellent as he continues to gain more speed and build a faster race.

I'm fine with that because it's still swimming, cycling, or running.

2014-10-24 11:08 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

What about ST that is s/b/r based? 

Almost everyone who has ever posted on the topic has said that most sport specific work is beneficial.  It's very debateable HOW beneficial some of the things you listed may be (eg, paddles, parachute, massive kick sets, pulling weight stacks) and for many athletes those are probably activities that they don't need to worry about trying to figure out how to incorporate into their training.  But more 'basic' things like hill repeats (bike or run), strides, higher intensity intervals, etc., are all things that most triathletes can easily work into their training and gain significant added benefits from just 'steady state' endurance training.

I do9n't disagree with most of your points.  BUT.....there is a lot of triathlon out there, and building a fast race can be different for different races.  I can easily see the need for more strength work for a DL race, or a sprint race, then I can for longer races.  I think quite a few of us end up talking about triathlon for longer distances.

As an example.......I have seen the "bricks are not needed" advice thrown around quite a bit.  Maybe.....but the triple bricks that many fast people use to build their sprint races are golden.  A DL or Grand Prix race is not a sprint is not an Oly is not a HIM is not an IM.

Jenny's workouts for track cycling is not a TT is not a road race.

I think more strength work for shorter distances makes a world of sense......with the caveat that it's s/b/r based.

2014-10-24 12:34 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Prefer to look at the value of specific activities instead of fussing over such a broad categorization term that seems to have a rather diverse meaning to people.

2014-10-24 12:44 PM
in reply to: jonnyo

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?
Originally posted by jonnyo

the problem with this study is, there is no controle group that dosnt do strength training, They compare strength training for a group of younger athlete with a group of 50+. Yes, it s obvious the 50+ will get more out of this.

But what about the controle group of 50 year old athlete that WOULD NOT DO strength training but instead replace that 3X a week strength program with 3 rides? Then we could have a honest idea of what is the contribution of strength training. Well, we already know from previous study. The added activity specific training will produce superior adaptation at all ages.

But as I said, many people will have a hard time understanding the physiology of traininig, read this article and claim that s the way to go. That s not what the abstract is telling us......

Riding 3 times a week and doing 3 strength training session is better than riding 3 times a week., But it s not as good as riding 6 times a week.


That's true, and it's hard to know all of the details of the study from the abstract. But the article I originally linked (which presumably reviewed the full study... I know - big presumption...) described all of the athletes (younger athletes and masters) as triathletes who "train for about two hours each day on average, including about 250 kilometres of cycling a week."

Take a look at the Sweat Science review of the study.

But really.... for me, the bottom line is - doing something is better than doing nothing. If someone is more motivated to go lift than to go out for a ride or run, then that's better than sitting on the couch.
2014-10-24 12:49 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

What about ST that is s/b/r based? 

Almost everyone who has ever posted on the topic has said that most sport specific work is beneficial.  It's very debateable HOW beneficial some of the things you listed may be (eg, paddles, parachute, massive kick sets, pulling weight stacks) and for many athletes those are probably activities that they don't need to worry about trying to figure out how to incorporate into their training.  But more 'basic' things like hill repeats (bike or run), strides, higher intensity intervals, etc., are all things that most triathletes can easily work into their training and gain significant added benefits from just 'steady state' endurance training.

I do9n't disagree with most of your points.  BUT.....there is a lot of triathlon out there, and building a fast race can be different for different races.  I can easily see the need for more strength work for a DL race, or a sprint race, then I can for longer races.  I think quite a few of us end up talking about triathlon for longer distances.

As an example.......I have seen the "bricks are not needed" advice thrown around quite a bit.  Maybe.....but the triple bricks that many fast people use to build their sprint races are golden.  A DL or Grand Prix race is not a sprint is not an Oly is not a HIM is not an IM.

Jenny's workouts for track cycling is not a TT is not a road race.

I think more strength work for shorter distances makes a world of sense......with the caveat that it's s/b/r based.

You seem to like to create an argument where none exists.  So I'll oblige.  Even a sprint is an endurance race.  (Track cycling may, or may not, be.)



2014-10-24 12:58 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?
Originally posted by Left Brain

I do9n't disagree with most of your points.  BUT.....there is a lot of triathlon out there, and building a fast race can be different for different races.  I can easily see the need for more strength work for a DL race, or a sprint race, then I can for longer races.  I think quite a few of us end up talking about triathlon for longer distances.


Yes for DL but not so much for a non-draft legal race of any distance.

As an example.......I have seen the "bricks are not needed" advice thrown around quite a bit.  Maybe.....but the triple bricks that many fast people use to build their sprint races are golden.  A DL or Grand Prix race is not a sprint is not an Oly is not a HIM is not an IM.


Again, for DL, bricks are critical (as they are for novices who want to get used to the feeling of running off the bike) but this is because of the demands of racing. You need to come off the bike and hammer that first km (at least); riding hard and immediately getting off and running hard is very race specific. As well, doing several transitions in the workout will help with the technical aspects of transition which are also critical in those races.

Jenny's workouts for track cycling is not a TT is not a road race.


Correct but there are endurance track cyclists (think Wiggins) who focus on the longer events and generally do well when they transition to TTs and road races. OTOH, the track sprinters do not transition to TT and road racing as they specialize in events that last less than two minutes.

I think more strength work for shorter distances makes a world of sense......with the caveat that it's s/b/r based.


Sport specific "strength" training is valuable however most of what we do isn't actually focused on strength, they are just hard workouts and since they are hard aerobic workouts, they are beneficial to all triathletes during a general phase of training. Then, if they don't apply to the demands of your specific race, they become much less important as race day approaches.

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2014-10-24 1:25 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

What about ST that is s/b/r based? 

Almost everyone who has ever posted on the topic has said that most sport specific work is beneficial.  It's very debateable HOW beneficial some of the things you listed may be (eg, paddles, parachute, massive kick sets, pulling weight stacks) and for many athletes those are probably activities that they don't need to worry about trying to figure out how to incorporate into their training.  But more 'basic' things like hill repeats (bike or run), strides, higher intensity intervals, etc., are all things that most triathletes can easily work into their training and gain significant added benefits from just 'steady state' endurance training.

I do9n't disagree with most of your points.  BUT.....there is a lot of triathlon out there, and building a fast race can be different for different races.  I can easily see the need for more strength work for a DL race, or a sprint race, then I can for longer races.  I think quite a few of us end up talking about triathlon for longer distances.

As an example.......I have seen the "bricks are not needed" advice thrown around quite a bit.  Maybe.....but the triple bricks that many fast people use to build their sprint races are golden.  A DL or Grand Prix race is not a sprint is not an Oly is not a HIM is not an IM.

Jenny's workouts for track cycling is not a TT is not a road race.

I think more strength work for shorter distances makes a world of sense......with the caveat that it's s/b/r based.

You seem to like to create an argument where none exists.  So I'll oblige.  Even a sprint is an endurance race.  (Track cycling may, or may not, be.)

LOL - I'm really not......I just don't like the idea that eventually gets thrown around that strength training is not good.....and all one needs to do is just s/b/r more.  That's the track these discussions always end  up on.  But like another said, it may just be that we have different interpretations of "strength training".

A sprint race is not an endurance race like an IM is.......it's not close...at least not at the fast end of either.

2014-10-24 1:30 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain I do9n't disagree with most of your points.  BUT.....there is a lot of triathlon out there, and building a fast race can be different for different races.  I can easily see the need for more strength work for a DL race, or a sprint race, then I can for longer races.  I think quite a few of us end up talking about triathlon for longer distances.
Yes for DL but not so much for a non-draft legal race of any distance.
As an example.......I have seen the "bricks are not needed" advice thrown around quite a bit.  Maybe.....but the triple bricks that many fast people use to build their sprint races are golden.  A DL or Grand Prix race is not a sprint is not an Oly is not a HIM is not an IM.
Again, for DL, bricks are critical (as they are for novices who want to get used to the feeling of running off the bike) but this is because of the demands of racing. You need to come off the bike and hammer that first km (at least); riding hard and immediately getting off and running hard is very race specific. As well, doing several transitions in the workout will help with the technical aspects of transition which are also critical in those races.
Jenny's workouts for track cycling is not a TT is not a road race.
Correct but there are endurance track cyclists (think Wiggins) who focus on the longer events and generally do well when they transition to TTs and road races. OTOH, the track sprinters do not transition to TT and road racing as they specialize in events that last less than two minutes.
I think more strength work for shorter distances makes a world of sense......with the caveat that it's s/b/r based.
Sport specific "strength" training is valuable however most of what we do isn't actually focused on strength, they are just hard workouts and since they are hard aerobic workouts, they are beneficial to all triathletes during a general phase of training. Then, if they don't apply to the demands of your specific race, they become much less important as race day approaches. Shane

I see most of your points......but not so much your points regarding sprint races that are not DL.  At the top end it's still pretty much foot to the floor, and strength is important.  Once you get to Oly and beyond there is some throttling back to be done....to me, a sprint is an endurance triathlon race the same way a track mile is a 10K.

2014-10-24 1:37 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

A sprint race is not an endurance race like an IM is.......it's not close...at least not at the fast end of either.

I disagree.  It's very close.  MUCH more comparable to the 10k vs marathon than the 1mi vs 10k.

2014-10-24 1:42 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

What about ST that is s/b/r based? 

Almost everyone who has ever posted on the topic has said that most sport specific work is beneficial.  It's very debateable HOW beneficial some of the things you listed may be (eg, paddles, parachute, massive kick sets, pulling weight stacks) and for many athletes those are probably activities that they don't need to worry about trying to figure out how to incorporate into their training.  But more 'basic' things like hill repeats (bike or run), strides, higher intensity intervals, etc., are all things that most triathletes can easily work into their training and gain significant added benefits from just 'steady state' endurance training.

I do9n't disagree with most of your points.  BUT.....there is a lot of triathlon out there, and building a fast race can be different for different races.  I can easily see the need for more strength work for a DL race, or a sprint race, then I can for longer races.  I think quite a few of us end up talking about triathlon for longer distances.

As an example.......I have seen the "bricks are not needed" advice thrown around quite a bit.  Maybe.....but the triple bricks that many fast people use to build their sprint races are golden.  A DL or Grand Prix race is not a sprint is not an Oly is not a HIM is not an IM.

Jenny's workouts for track cycling is not a TT is not a road race.

I think more strength work for shorter distances makes a world of sense......with the caveat that it's s/b/r based.

You seem to like to create an argument where none exists.  So I'll oblige.  Even a sprint is an endurance race.  (Track cycling may, or may not, be.)

LOL - I'm really not......I just don't like the idea that eventually gets thrown around that strength training is not good.....and all one needs to do is just s/b/r more.  That's the track these discussions always end  up on.  But like another said, it may just be that we have different interpretations of "strength training".

A sprint race is not an endurance race like an IM is.......it's not close...at least not at the fast end of either.

If I am remembering correctly, Mike Ricci has been on here before suggesting ways of improving running & riding "strength", however, an example of this strength work was running at 10k pace or so. Others in this conversation would be more likely to call this a threshold focused workout and tend to save "strength" for work around neuromuscular limits. So yeah, "strength" has been used differently by people who do know what they're doing. Hence the earlier post on looking more at the usefulness of the specific activity instead of such a broadly defined label.



2014-10-24 1:49 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

A sprint race is not an endurance race like an IM is.......it's not close...at least not at the fast end of either.

I disagree.  It's very close.  MUCH more comparable to the 10k vs marathon than the 1mi vs 10k.

Maybe for you and me.

2014-10-24 1:51 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

A sprint race is not an endurance race like an IM is.......it's not close...at least not at the fast end of either.

I disagree.  It's very close.  MUCH more comparable to the 10k vs marathon than the 1mi vs 10k.

Maybe for you and me.

Try using a 100m specialist in comparison to those guys.

2014-10-24 1:57 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

A sprint race is not an endurance race like an IM is.......it's not close...at least not at the fast end of either.

I disagree.  It's very close.  MUCH more comparable to the 10k vs marathon than the 1mi vs 10k.

Maybe for you and me.

For the pointy end, too.  Why do you keep pointing out all the talent coming to the long distance tris from the shorter events?  Why do top 10k runners make some of the best marathoners?

2014-10-24 2:09 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?
Originally posted by Left Brain

I see most of your points......but not so much your points regarding sprint races that are not DL.  At the top end it's still pretty much foot to the floor, and strength is important.  Once you get to Oly and beyond there is some throttling back to be done....to me, a sprint is an endurance triathlon race the same way a track mile is a 10K.




Not even the legs that make up a sprint are sprint events in the standalone sports - so even if you assume that each leg has no impact on the other, the events are still endurance events.

Now, if you were racing 50-100m/1-2km/200-400m then you'd be aiming to red line the whole way.

Shane
2014-10-24 2:27 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain I see most of your points......but not so much your points regarding sprint races that are not DL.  At the top end it's still pretty much foot to the floor, and strength is important.  Once you get to Oly and beyond there is some throttling back to be done....to me, a sprint is an endurance triathlon race the same way a track mile is a 10K.
Not even the legs that make up a sprint are sprint events in the standalone sports - so even if you assume that each leg has no impact on the other, the events are still endurance events. Now, if you were racing 50-100m/1-2km/200-400m then you'd be aiming to red line the whole way. Shane

But still much different levels, no?  I don't run a 400 the way I run a mile, or a mile the way I run a 5K, or a 5K the way I run a 10K......and on and on....and my times are much slower than his these days, but when Jr. trains to run a 4:10 mile this Spring are you saying that he would train the same as if he was shooting for a sub 15:00 5k?  Because the workouts he gets for each are not the same......and he doesn't race them the same.....nor would I.  I'm asking.......please fill in what I'm missing so I can better see what you're saying.



2014-10-24 2:38 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain I see most of your points......but not so much your points regarding sprint races that are not DL.  At the top end it's still pretty much foot to the floor, and strength is important.  Once you get to Oly and beyond there is some throttling back to be done....to me, a sprint is an endurance triathlon race the same way a track mile is a 10K.
Not even the legs that make up a sprint are sprint events in the standalone sports - so even if you assume that each leg has no impact on the other, the events are still endurance events. Now, if you were racing 50-100m/1-2km/200-400m then you'd be aiming to red line the whole way. Shane

But still much different levels, no?  I don't run a 400 the way I run a mile, or a mile the way I run a 5K, or a 5K the way I run a 10K......and on and on....and my times are much slower than his these days, but when Jr. trains to run a 4:10 mile this Spring are you saying that he would train the same as if he was shooting for a sub 15:00 5k?  Because the workouts he gets for each are not the same......and he doesn't race them the same.....nor would I.  I'm asking.......please fill in what I'm missing so I can better see what you're saying.

The way I see it, your examples are exactly what Shane is saying.  That a 4 minute event (such as 100m/2k/400m) or shorter (400m run) is different from a 15 minute event like a 5k.  The individual legs of a sprint are aerobic...so when you put them all together into a 50ish minute event, why wouldn't it also be aerobic?

2014-10-24 2:49 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain I see most of your points......but not so much your points regarding sprint races that are not DL.  At the top end it's still pretty much foot to the floor, and strength is important.  Once you get to Oly and beyond there is some throttling back to be done....to me, a sprint is an endurance triathlon race the same way a track mile is a 10K.
Not even the legs that make up a sprint are sprint events in the standalone sports - so even if you assume that each leg has no impact on the other, the events are still endurance events. Now, if you were racing 50-100m/1-2km/200-400m then you'd be aiming to red line the whole way. Shane

But still much different levels, no?  I don't run a 400 the way I run a mile, or a mile the way I run a 5K, or a 5K the way I run a 10K......and on and on....and my times are much slower than his these days, but when Jr. trains to run a 4:10 mile this Spring are you saying that he would train the same as if he was shooting for a sub 15:00 5k?  Because the workouts he gets for each are not the same......and he doesn't race them the same.....nor would I.  I'm asking.......please fill in what I'm missing so I can better see what you're saying.

The way I see it, your examples are exactly what Shane is saying.  That a 4 minute event (such as 100m/2k/400m) or shorter (400m run) is different from a 15 minute event like a 5k.  The individual legs of a sprint are aerobic...so when you put them all together into a 50ish minute event, why wouldn't it also be aerobic?

Ok....aerobic vs. anaerobic.....I get that.  But for training purposes......how often do you go anaerobic training for a HIM, or IM, or even an Oly?  he runs a very fast sprint......his trianing goes anaerobic A LOT.

2014-10-24 2:52 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?
Yes

400m run 99% anaerobic

4:00 miles run 80% aerobic

5km in sub 15min..... yes...very much aerobic effort, in the 90% range

A sprint triathlon is almost entirely aerobic and as everyone says, a endurance event even for the fastest in the world.....

The only aspect that differentiate Draft legal is the sprint, acceleration that are more pronounce than non drafting. But even at the highest level...a simple powerfile analysis show you it s a very small part of the race.



Shane is explaining it very well.
2014-10-24 2:55 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Ok....aerobic vs. anaerobic.....I get that. 

Good.  You're getting closer to understanding. 

2014-10-24 3:05 PM
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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by jonnyo Yes 400m run 99% anaerobic 4:00 miles run 80% aerobic 5km in sub 15min..... yes...very much aerobic effort, in the 90% range A sprint triathlon is almost entirely aerobic and as everyone says, a endurance event even for the fastest in the world..... The only aspect that differentiate Draft legal is the sprint, acceleration that are more pronounce than non drafting. But even at the highest level...a simple powerfile analysis show you it s a very small part of the race. Shane is explaining it very well.

Ok......I get that....but we were talkiing about training (at least I think I was) and strength work.  All of the strength work that my kid does to create a fast sprint is in the anaerobic range.  And, like I said, he does a bunch of it in a week.  Hell, for 6 weeks when he works out on the overspeed treadmill almost all of his running is in that zone.....he's litterally held on the treadmill at the end of the faster/steeper intervals.  The same with the bike......he does very few "rides"....it's all jump work.....very fast and short.  I don't foresee him training that way when he gets ready to move up to Oly.  I don't understand how the training for those races can be considered equal, or on the same level.  And I don't see the racing being the same either.  Even at the very top level you see the very elite running 50 minute sprints......they aren't running 1:40 Olys.....the pace changes.  Both aerobic, ok, I'll buy that......but calling those races the same doesn't seem right to me.

No, JohnnyKay......I'm not trying to pick a fight.....I'm looking to understand the groupthink here as I look at figuring out what my kid needs down the rode as he moves up. 



Edited by Left Brain 2014-10-24 3:07 PM


2014-10-24 3:07 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain I see most of your points......but not so much your points regarding sprint races that are not DL.  At the top end it's still pretty much foot to the floor, and strength is important.  Once you get to Oly and beyond there is some throttling back to be done....to me, a sprint is an endurance triathlon race the same way a track mile is a 10K.
Not even the legs that make up a sprint are sprint events in the standalone sports - so even if you assume that each leg has no impact on the other, the events are still endurance events. Now, if you were racing 50-100m/1-2km/200-400m then you'd be aiming to red line the whole way. Shane

But still much different levels, no?  I don't run a 400 the way I run a mile, or a mile the way I run a 5K, or a 5K the way I run a 10K......and on and on....and my times are much slower than his these days, but when Jr. trains to run a 4:10 mile this Spring are you saying that he would train the same as if he was shooting for a sub 15:00 5k?  Because the workouts he gets for each are not the same......and he doesn't race them the same.....nor would I.  I'm asking.......please fill in what I'm missing so I can better see what you're saying.

The way I see it, your examples are exactly what Shane is saying.  That a 4 minute event (such as 100m/2k/400m) or shorter (400m run) is different from a 15 minute event like a 5k.  The individual legs of a sprint are aerobic...so when you put them all together into a 50ish minute event, why wouldn't it also be aerobic?

Ok....aerobic vs. anaerobic.....I get that.  But for training purposes......how often do you go anaerobic training for a HIM, or IM, or even an Oly?  he runs a very fast sprint......his trianing goes anaerobic A LOT.

There is some anaerobic development in them, but there is also running economy and familiarity with running at such a high effort. Consider, 20 x 200 in 27"-30" each. A 4:10 mile is ~31" per 200. He just put in 2.5 miles at just faster than the goal pace so he should be rather familiar with running that fast. Longer races aren't run at as high of an intensity, so the familiarity part isn't as fast. It might not be as often either as other fast running could be enough depending on just how long the race is. About everything besides "easy" will be faster than marathon pacing, for example.

2014-10-24 3:08 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

I'm out for a bit.......gotta go put a 14 year old girl in a deer stand.

2014-10-24 3:20 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Ok....aerobic vs. anaerobic.....I get that.  But for training purposes......how often do you go anaerobic training for a HIM, or IM, or even an Oly?  he runs a very fast sprint......his trianing goes anaerobic A LOT.




You don't go "anaerobic;" your body produces energy via the different pathways - for very short, intense efforts, the contribution is mainly via the ATP/PCr pathway which lasts for 10-15s max. That doesn't mean the other systems aren't doing anything, but this is the primary system.

Then, for efforts that are still hard but last a bit longer, the glycolytic system takes over (up to about two minutes). This system produces lactate and is sometime called the anaerobic alactic system. While this system will provide the energy for these efforts, it is also the primary system that supports the aerobic system when it cannot keep up with the energy demand and this is why it can be useful to monitor blood lactate as it provides a window into how hard an athlete is working.

For all efforts lasting longer than two minutes, the aerobic system is the primary system but it will be supported by anaerobic energy creation (primarily glycolyytic). So for racing, all triathlons, every track event past the 800m, cycling distances over about 2km and swimming past 200m are all primarily aerobic.

That doesn't mean in training that we should never stress these systems because the other systems are important to supplement the aerobic system. However, everything up to and including VO2max work will be primarily fueled via aerobic energy pathways just with more reliance on the anaerobic system as effort goes up. When it comes to training for an event, you look at the energy systems and determine which are most important to the event and train those. Also, the training as a race approaches will demand more specific fitness which is why in January all middle distance runners on a track team will be doing the same (or very similar workouts) but as race season approaches, workouts will vary with target distances.

Finally, while you won't spend much time above threshold in an oly, HIM or IM (and a sprint likely right around threshold), training at or above threshold is important as key predictor of endurance performance is power/pace at threshold.

Shane
2014-10-24 3:24 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: More Weight Training = Better Results?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jonnyo Yes 400m run 99% anaerobic 4:00 miles run 80% aerobic 5km in sub 15min..... yes...very much aerobic effort, in the 90% range A sprint triathlon is almost entirely aerobic and as everyone says, a endurance event even for the fastest in the world..... The only aspect that differentiate Draft legal is the sprint, acceleration that are more pronounce than non drafting. But even at the highest level...a simple powerfile analysis show you it s a very small part of the race. Shane is explaining it very well.

Ok......I get that....but we were talkiing about training (at least I think I was) and strength work.  All of the strength work that my kid does to create a fast sprint is in the anaerobic range.  And, like I said, he does a bunch of it in a week.  Hell, for 6 weeks when he works out on the overspeed treadmill almost all of his running is in that zone.....he's litterally held on the treadmill at the end of the faster/steeper intervals.  The same with the bike......he does very few "rides"....it's all jump work.....very fast and short.  I don't foresee him training that way when he gets ready to move up to Oly.  I don't understand how the training for those races can be considered equal, or on the same level.  And I don't see the racing being the same either.  Even at the very top level you see the very elite running 50 minute sprints......they aren't running 1:40 Olys.....the pace changes.  Both aerobic, ok, I'll buy that......but calling those races the same doesn't seem right to me.

No, JohnnyKay......I'm not trying to pick a fight.....I'm looking to understand the groupthink here as I look at figuring out what my kid needs down the rode as he moves up. 

And I'm intentionally allowing Shane and others do most of the explanation while I offer the 'one liners' to maybe help you think about it better (and maybe 'tweak' you a little bit since you do that so well to others ).

The races aren't the same, but the 'systems' on which your body relies are largely the same.  So much of the training 'building blocks' are also the same.  Once you get closer to preparing for the specific race, then of course you do more race specific work.  You won't see many IM athletes doing 6 weeks of overspeed treadmill work in the last phase of their IM prep.  But those same athletes might do some of that type of work 6 months (or more) away because it helps to develop their engine most effectively.  Again, I'm sure Shane and others will probably explain it better.

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