General Discussion Triathlon Talk » NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds Rss Feed  
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2014-10-22 6:10 PM

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538
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Brooklyn, New York
Subject: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Hello to everyone browsing this thread. I, and everyone involved appreciate your time.
Pacific Sports LLC has attempted to hold a Brooklyn NY triathlon event for the second year in a row. In 2013 they successfully collected an undisclosed amount of registration fees. Prior to the event date, they cancelled it and, according to many on facebook, have not refunded the 2013 fees. Some have been refunded for 2013, but some have not.
Cut to 2014: The event was rescheduled for October 26th 2014. Pacific highlighted several issues during the course of advertisement and correspondence that have been solved since 2013 and the event was geared to go. Sponsors, expo dates, (and even a small meet to review course) all were in place. As October hit, their correspondence waned and people got suspicious. As of this past Monday (6 days before event) they have cancelled yet again.
Here is the ongoing discourse on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrooklynTriathlon

I have emailed them, as have others and a generic response has been sent in return:
"Tim,
We understand your frustration and will let everyone know when the next steps are finalized. We are doing everything possible to make this unfortunate situation as acceptable as possible for everyone involved."

A day after this (as you can view on facebook) they posted the letter exchanged between PacificSports LLC and the City of New York. While their post is an attempt to sort of say, "look, see, it's not our fault, etc" - The letter in fact, exposes some poor management of time on their behalf or exposes what looks like cause for a potential suit (collection of hundreds, er. thousands? of registration fees before permit application).

What I'm asking of anyone here on BT:
> What have been your experiences regarding Pacific if any
> What have been your experiences regarding cancelled Tri refunds
> If any of you are or know practicing lawyers (I do as well) - what is your/their advice (we want to gather as much as possible before moving ahead)
> Any other experienced suggestions are welcomed
> Any other suggestions on how to contact the expanded tri community that may be hard to contact

Thank you all on behalf of those affected by this
Tim


2014-10-22 6:37 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Regular
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Pueblo, Colorado
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Don't know about Pacific, but there was a similar situation this fall with the Boulder Marathon. It was legitimately cancelled last year, and folks were given automatic paid entry for 2014. Then it was canceled again this year about two weeks out. Promises were again made to cover the entry fee in 2015, but I think most folks feel like that will never happen. I'd read that the DA in Boulder was "looking into it," but I'm not sure what eventually will come of it. Hope for the best, but given those kinds of issues, I'd be doubtful if there will be much in the way of a refund.
2014-10-22 6:45 PM
in reply to: tedjohn

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538
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Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Just read about it and that doesn't bode well for us here in NY. It almost seems like collect & cancel is the perfect scam
2014-10-22 6:52 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds

We had a bike race cancelled 4 days before race day due to lack of permits.  We all got full refunds in the mail within a week and I'm sure the RD took quite a big loss.  That said, he is also a LBS owner, and it would have been suicide for him not do to full refunds.  I suppose it's a little easier to do refunds for 115 entrants compared to maybe 1000+ though.

2014-10-22 10:28 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Id' say it's a good thing they structured as an LLC for their sake...protects their personal assets from the (invetible?) payback of fees!
2014-10-22 11:18 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
I'm not sure why the RD was surprised about the permit fee.


2014-10-22 11:55 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
here is a link to the email that went out...it's a different "story" than can be gathered from the facebook page. They make it sound like they DID start the process for getitng a permit as long as a year ago...perhaps the official date of paperwork was recent,b ut their actions were based on what happened last year ... at least that's what I'm gathering from this.

I have no stake in it one way or the other and never heard of this guy or this race until this post. Just sharing some thoughts.

http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=4e07cede409005fe8b5a4d836&id=5c...
2014-10-23 6:59 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds

Originally posted by TJHammer Just read about it and that doesn't bode well for us here in NY. It almost seems like collect & cancel is the perfect scam

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

Just curious why anyone would possibly register for another event from this promoter.

2014-10-23 8:59 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Champion
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Sarasota, FL
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds

Don't know anything about Pacific, but I have seen the 'permit card' played nunerous times by questionable promoters as an excuse to cancel races.  

It's a big red flag to me that they didn't even submit the permit application until August, ahead of an October race.

It appears that the promoter is either incompetent or unethical at the least.

Mark 

 

    

 

2014-10-23 9:13 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Originally posted by AdventureBear

here is a link to the email that went out...it's a different "story" than can be gathered from the facebook page. They make it sound like they DID start the process for getitng a permit as long as a year ago...perhaps the official date of paperwork was recent,b ut their actions were based on what happened last year ... at least that's what I'm gathering from this.

I have no stake in it one way or the other and never heard of this guy or this race until this post. Just sharing some thoughts.

http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=4e07cede409005fe8b5a4d836&id=5c...

Yeah, that was the original. What was posted on facebook was what Pacific posted as follow up. I've lived in this city my whole life, I am sure there were games being played back and forth between Pacific and the city. I have been part of functions in this city (inlcuding parades of big street closures)(of which I knew the sponsor) - Who knows what else went on behind the scenes here. Truth is, at this point, it's about the refunds and if not, spreading as much bad publicity as possible.

In fact, BBB and class-action lawsuit firm calling me back as I type this. I'll keep posted, thanks all
2014-10-23 9:42 AM
in reply to: TJHammer


80
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naperville, Illinois
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Several years ago, I signed up for a triathlon in Annapolis, MD. They weren't able to get the permits so cancelled the race about a month out (I don't remember exactly how far out, but enough time that we didn't have out stuff packed up ready to go). they also promptly refunded our money within a couple of months. All of it. Things happen, cancellations happen. The Annapolis tri group did it the right way, then didn't wait until the last minute to let us know and they didn't wait until the last minute to except the fact that they weren't getting the permits. They also promptly refunded the money even though they certainly expended some money to that point. At the end of the day, they didn't do everything they needed to do to put the triathlon on, i.e. get the permits, so they owed everyone a full refund.

Flip over to IM Tahoe this year and their situation - they were prevented from putting on the tri because of an act of god, fires, so they are not expected to refund the money. They did everything they needed to do to put the race on so they held up their side of the bargain. allowing people discounts on other races was just a good PR move.

bottom line, it is a contract between you and them, they offer a race, you give them money. If they don't put on the race because of their failure to get everything in place needed to run the race, they are breaching the contract. if they do everything they can and the race is cancelled because of fires, lightening, sudden snow storm, they didn't breach. When they breach, you are entitled to a refund. HOWEVER, you will probably never get it as you first need to get a judgment against them, and then the true hard part, you have to get the money out of them. good luck. they suck


2014-10-23 10:02 AM
in reply to: #5062249

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
No dog in this fight, but pacific is owned by Jack Caress, who also runs the Los Angeles triathlon. Very experienced (or should be ) RD. Let's say he doesn't have the best of reputations around here. Just from hearsay. I did LA Tri once. Once.......they recently changed the venue and there were .... Issues.
2014-10-23 10:27 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
I've only done one triathlon, and that one was put on by Pacific Sports (Newport Beach). It seemed well run and organized to me, but I don't have anything to compare it to. I'm doing Life Time Oceanside this weekend, so maybe I'll have a better measuring stick. At any rate, Newport Beach has been going for 30-plus years, not sure if Pacific Sports has been the organizer for all that time or not.
2014-10-23 11:11 AM
in reply to: 0

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538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Originally posted by Raansnel

Several years ago, I signed up for a triathlon in Annapolis, MD. They weren't able to get the permits so cancelled the race about a month out (I don't remember exactly how far out, but enough time that we didn't have out stuff packed up ready to go). they also promptly refunded our money within a couple of months. All of it. Things happen, cancellations happen. The Annapolis tri group did it the right way, then didn't wait until the last minute to let us know and they didn't wait until the last minute to except the fact that they weren't getting the permits. They also promptly refunded the money even though they certainly expended some money to that point. At the end of the day, they didn't do everything they needed to do to put the triathlon on, i.e. get the permits, so they owed everyone a full refund.

Flip over to IM Tahoe this year and their situation - they were prevented from putting on the tri because of an act of god, fires, so they are not expected to refund the money. They did everything they needed to do to put the race on so they held up their side of the bargain. allowing people discounts on other races was just a good PR move.

bottom line, it is a contract between you and them, they offer a race, you give them money. If they don't put on the race because of their failure to get everything in place needed to run the race, they are breaching the contract. if they do everything they can and the race is cancelled because of fires, lightening, sudden snow storm, they didn't breach. When they breach, you are entitled to a refund. HOWEVER, you will probably never get it as you first need to get a judgment against them, and then the true hard part, you have to get the money out of them. good luck. they suck



Act of God/natural disaster very understandable situation. Obviously not the case in our PacificSports situation. I followed the Tahoe deal, seems to have been handled with class all around. Our situation seems like an issue Pacific is having with NYC and we're caught in the crosshairs!
I have spoken with a big class action firm that can take up to 30% commission. That's a big chunk if it comes to it, but we actually may be too small for them. I have been advised to obtain disclaimer or waiver, etc. agreements that Pacific may have put out to it's registrants. I have to check into that

Originally posted by ChrisM

No dog in this fight, but pacific is owned by Jack Caress, who also runs the Los Angeles triathlon. Very experienced (or should be ) RD. Let's say he doesn't have the best of reputations around here. Just from hearsay. I did LA Tri once. Once.......they recently changed the venue and there were .... Issues.


Not surprising, for two years now, they've managed to really make everyone interested in this tri feel like SH#%$

Edited by TJHammer 2014-10-23 11:12 AM
2014-10-23 11:25 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Exton, PA
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Originally posted by TJHammer

Originally posted by Raansnel

Several years ago, I signed up for a triathlon in Annapolis, MD. They weren't able to get the permits so cancelled the race about a month out (I don't remember exactly how far out, but enough time that we didn't have out stuff packed up ready to go). they also promptly refunded our money within a couple of months. All of it. Things happen, cancellations happen. The Annapolis tri group did it the right way, then didn't wait until the last minute to let us know and they didn't wait until the last minute to except the fact that they weren't getting the permits. They also promptly refunded the money even though they certainly expended some money to that point. At the end of the day, they didn't do everything they needed to do to put the triathlon on, i.e. get the permits, so they owed everyone a full refund.

Flip over to IM Tahoe this year and their situation - they were prevented from putting on the tri because of an act of god, fires, so they are not expected to refund the money. They did everything they needed to do to put the race on so they held up their side of the bargain. allowing people discounts on other races was just a good PR move.

bottom line, it is a contract between you and them, they offer a race, you give them money. If they don't put on the race because of their failure to get everything in place needed to run the race, they are breaching the contract. if they do everything they can and the race is cancelled because of fires, lightening, sudden snow storm, they didn't breach. When they breach, you are entitled to a refund. HOWEVER, you will probably never get it as you first need to get a judgment against them, and then the true hard part, you have to get the money out of them. good luck. they suck



Act of God/natural disaster very understandable situation. Obviously not the case in our PacificSports situation. I followed the Tahoe deal, seems to have been handled with class all around. Our situation seems like an issue Pacific is having with NYC and we're caught in the crosshairs!
I have spoken with a big class action firm that can take up to 30% commission. That's a big chunk if it comes to it, but we actually may be too small for them. I have been advised to obtain disclaimer or waiver, etc. agreements that Pacific may have put out to it's registrants. I have to check into that

Originally posted by ChrisM

No dog in this fight, but pacific is owned by Jack Caress, who also runs the Los Angeles triathlon. Very experienced (or should be ) RD. Let's say he doesn't have the best of reputations around here. Just from hearsay. I did LA Tri once. Once.......they recently changed the venue and there were .... Issues.


Not surprising, for two years now, they've managed to really make everyone interested in this tri feel like SH#%$


If he does not refund, then think about yourself and file a small claims. The breach of contract would probably be under the jurisdiction of the area the tri was to be held(not sure about that). If you sue him on breach of contract in small claims for the refund and any court fees(usually about $125 to file) he would have to show up at that district court to fight it, or have a representative there. Chances are he is not going to fly from CA to NY to fight over a couple hundred $. They will award you the win if he does not show. Will he pay with a court ruling against him??? maybe
2014-10-23 11:32 AM
in reply to: mike761

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538
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Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Thanks for the advice Mike


2014-10-24 10:30 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Athletic racing entry fees(Tris, marathons, cycling etc...) feel like they are barely legal in how they are handled.

You can pay $100 to run a race 6 months before the event and you sign disclaimers stating that

A) Money will not be refunded under ANY circumstance, even if the RD can't get the race off the ground and

B) you are not authorized to transfer that entry to another person under ANY circumstance.

I can understand prohibiting people from just handing their bibs to someone else the day of the race, but it's extremely lazy and unprofessional for them to prohibit racers from transferring their entry to another person via official race staff channels.

As far as no refunds under any circumstance I don't see how that's legal at all. I pay to run a race. The race doesn't happen because the RD couldn't get the permits. Who's fault is that? Why should I absorb the risk? The race doesn't happen because of weather. Why is that my problem? Again, why should the customer absorb all of that risk? Sorry Mr. RD but you roll the dice putting on outdoor events and you win some/you lose some. Such is life in business. At least 95% of your staff are unpaid volunteers right?

I'd have to believe that when a race gets weathered out the RD makes significantly more money since they no longer have to spend a bunch on food and drink but they don't have to refund my money. If I'm an RD I'm hoping for a snow storm.
2014-10-24 3:26 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Originally posted by Raansnel
Flip over to IM Tahoe this year and their situation - they were prevented from putting on the tri because of an act of god, fires, so they are not expected to refund the money. They did everything they needed to do to put the race on so they held up their side of the bargain. allowing people discounts on other races was just a good PR move.


I just caught this part of the post so sorry for double posting.

No, just no...

This is a BUSINESS for the RD. They are not putting these races on out of the kindness of their hearts. They are in it to get paid. As a customer (which is what we are) we are paying the RD to put on a race. If there is a tornado, earthquake, fire, power outage, anything you want to call "act of god" that risk belongs to the RD, not to the customer. The RISK of failure should be assumed by the same entity that stands to reap the REWARD of success.

Does it suck for the RD when a fire burns the course down? Sure. As a person I feel for him. As a business entity, which is what he is, too bad. It's the cost of doing business. There is no such thing as a risk free venture out there. Organized races like these where we pay to play have the risk shifted exclusively to the customer, but the rewards given exclusively to the RD.

These guys already get away with manning 95% of the support crew with unpaid volunteers to begin with. You guys understand that right? Most RD's use unpaid volunteers to man the courses while they pocket all the money.

Put things in another perspective here. If you paid for a new TV from some mom and pop TV shop in town and the truck that was delivering it ran off the side of the road and burst into flames or was struck by lightning would you just shrug and say "Oh well, guess I lose my money" or would you expect your money returned because the shop did not deliver the item you paid for? Would you accept "Gee, sorry about that, but I'll give you 50% off of another TV in lieu of a refund".

It's no different.


Edited by aliddle9876 2014-10-24 3:27 PM
2014-10-25 11:45 AM
in reply to: 0

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538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: NEED experienced Advice re: tri refunds
Originally posted by aliddle9876

Originally posted by Raansnel
Flip over to IM Tahoe this year and their situation - they were prevented from putting on the tri because of an act of god, fires, so they are not expected to refund the money. They did everything they needed to do to put the race on so they held up their side of the bargain. allowing people discounts on other races was just a good PR move.


I just caught this part of the post so sorry for double posting.

No, just no...

This is a BUSINESS for the RD. They are not putting these races on out of the kindness of their hearts. They are in it to get paid. As a customer (which is what we are) we are paying the RD to put on a race. If there is a tornado, earthquake, fire, power outage, anything you want to call "act of god" that risk belongs to the RD, not to the customer. The RISK of failure should be assumed by the same entity that stands to reap the REWARD of success.

Does it suck for the RD when a fire burns the course down? Sure. As a person I feel for him. As a business entity, which is what he is, too bad. It's the cost of doing business. There is no such thing as a risk free venture out there. Organized races like these where we pay to play have the risk shifted exclusively to the customer, but the rewards given exclusively to the RD.

These guys already get away with manning 95% of the support crew with unpaid volunteers to begin with. You guys understand that right? Most RD's use unpaid volunteers to man the courses while they pocket all the money.

Put things in another perspective here. If you paid for a new TV from some mom and pop TV shop in town and the truck that was delivering it ran off the side of the road and burst into flames or was struck by lightning would you just shrug and say "Oh well, guess I lose my money" or would you expect your money returned because the shop did not deliver the item you paid for? Would you accept "Gee, sorry about that, but I'll give you 50% off of another TV in lieu of a refund".

It's no different.



Great point, and this is what I am trying feverishly to discover what legal bounds we have. If there are, I will find a lawyer to contend them

Edited by TJHammer 2014-10-25 11:45 AM
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