go berserk!

Hi, thanks for the warm welcome and reply

1. That's great news! How do I do that while still getting adequate rest/recovery?

as of right now I planned do do weights twice a week. I did push ups/pull ups and power cleans today.
and then I was planning on doing squats/bench/dead lifts on Friday (30 min swim day)

is that too much, too little or..?

2. thanks for the tip, wouldn't have thought of it! I'm buying my bike tomorrow so I'll be sure to adjust it just for me.

Also, for the running days: can I work on explosive runs and sprints on running as well? or should I just focus on aerobic endurance?

Thanks again!

Former natural competitive bodybuilder here (15 yrs + of hardcore work)
You can maintain most of the mass with seriously intricate dietary habits, supplementation and scientific training. The challenge lies in the necessity for progressive endurance work (you'll eventually be going longer and longer and more frequently). This makes a wise approach to rest/recovery essential for muscle repair vs. degradation) Maintaining positive or at least equalized nitrogen balance is the key to keeping that hard earned muscle. There's a lot of feel in this on an individual basis. You'll get an immense about of helpful advice here on this forum, but if you still approach it from a bodybuilder muscle maintenance perspective, you'll find some of the advice conflicts with that. Rightfully so in many ways because endurance work in multiple disciplines makes muscle hypertrophy just about impossible.

Decide if you're ok with the current amount of lean mass you have and develop the program that maintains that, because even THAT is challenge enough! Bright side? You're 25y.o. - You can still probably hit 190/5 @ around 10% b.f., still look muscular, but have trimmed the slowing you down fat and still look muscular to be happy, all the while improving your tri performance.

I started out at 38.5 y.o. @ 5'10" -209 @ 16% b.f. - I am not about to turn 40 at 187/8 @ 9/10% b.f. - Strength still there in the gym to keep me happy and muscular. This was done with a 24/7 - 365 OCD approach. Never had the best of muscular genetics

Hope this helps. Gave my personal #'s because proof you can pull it off was hard for me to come by when I started this. Everyone but my brother kept saying I'd lose it all, get thin to be competitive or keep it all and just be too slow in tri times

I bought my bike on CL for $250 perfectly new condition.
It just so happened to fit the leg length description you were referring to too!

I did my first ride this morning with it and went great. I actually really love the bike, and there are soooo many paved bike trails where I live I don't see myself getting bored anytime soon (that was the toughest part of the stationary bike at the gym...boring :/ )

I'm going to look up LA tri club, thanks!!

Hey TJ, thanks for the reply!

That's really cool we have similar starting stats.

"You'll get an immense about of helpful advice here on this forum, but if you still approach it from a bodybuilder muscle maintenance perspective, you'll find some of the advice conflicts with that. Rightfully so in many ways because endurance work in multiple disciplines makes muscle hypertrophy just about impossible"

This right here is the core concern of my question.
I assumed and you just confirmed that there is going to be a point in my training where if I want to be competitive, which I do, I'm going to have to primarily choose one or the other. I understand I'll lose at least a little bit of my hard earned muscle which I'm okay with, because as you said, with that will come the fat that is slowing me down.

190 at 10% is definitely fine with me (i'd say even 175-180 too)
I love having the muscle, but I also love the speed, agility and endurance that comes with a leaner physique
(set a high school record for most stolen bases in a season)
I saw your pic in your profile, looks like you've done great maintaining gains!

So is weights twice a week good for now?
should I focus on high weight/low reps or lower weight high reps?
Should I keep my carbs around breakfast/work out times or spread them out?

Thanks!

Thank for the pic compliment. I played baseball too, loved the SB. Speed kills, I love it! Nothing like throwing off the pitchers' rhythm with it too.

Carb wise, I am older so have a slower metabolism than you. There will be differential there. I also lower my carb intake on rest days. If I am not burning as much, I just don't need em. You'll probably understand this: From that muscle building perspective there is that "feeling" of ideal "fullness" to muscles after being worked and in between bodypart training days. A little of that gets lost when you get leaner and harder, but shredded muscle looks bigger in many respects as long as you maintain that density. So it's a big mind hurdle to get over.

In the fall and winter I did 3 days of weights, as I cut back to 5/6x a month of pool swimming. That opened up a little more room for upper body work.
In the fall & winter I also did a little more leg work in the gym to maintain explosive strength.
In the spring and DEFINITELY in the summer it was 2x weights a week upper body split. I also cut to leg weight work every 20 days or so since I was doing more outdoor running.
I'll be honest, I used to have giant quads and hammies and they've taken the most hit. It bothers me a bit, but I am speaking to that mindset of the bigorexia bodybuilder type (which part of me does have)


Poundage wise in the gym, I ALWAYS go heavy enough to make 10 reps or so serious work. Failure....forced reps are out for the most part because they require a little too much recovery. I sprinkle lighter higher rep days to ease load on tendons and hit slow twitch fibers. I cut back on deadlift poundage to find just the right amount to maintain thickness. Good mornings became a key exercise for my back in between long outdoor rides. Heavy dumbbell pullovers made me much more powerful in swim strokes. There's been a LOT of nip & tuck with workout design. I can go on and on. Just ask.

The nice thing dietary wise is that when doing mostly weight training and minimal cardio, but trying to stay lean and muscular my diet was low sodium, low carb, etc. Once you start killing yourself in interval work, bike distance, longer sessions in Zone 2-3, and rough brick work, you can open the diet up with more carbs ad sodium because you're gonna need it! lol

PS....enjoy the bike work. A background of heavy leg weight training does come in handy when pumping away. I think coming from a weight training foundation has prepared for that feeling of anaerobic (lactate) state. Intervals in both biking and running helped adapt me pretty quickly rather than just going long and moderate to slow.


Edited by TJHammer 2014-11-03 11:29 AM

Haha, yes! Either I'm gonna try to steal a bag, or I'm gonna throw off the pitcher and help my buddy at the plate get a ribbie.

" From that muscle building perspective there is that "feeling" of ideal "fullness" to muscles after being worked and in between bodypart training days. A little of that gets lost when you get leaner and harder, but shredded muscle looks bigger in many respects as long as you maintain that density. So it's a big mind hurdle to get over"

this is interesting. I know exactly what you're talking about for the 'bodybuilding' but when you say I'll lose some of that. Is that because of the type of training I'll be doing, or as I get leaner?

Since I'm just getting my feet wet with tri training I'm doing run/bike/swim twice a week right now. Is this sustainable? I want to get my body used to the workouts so by the time spring comes along I can start competing (there's a sprint mid-December I'm looking at too). But I don't want to exhaust my body too much so that by the time spring comes along my body says, "sorry bro, we need a break."



I was gonna ask about back/shoulder exercises...how do you feel about pull ups and reverse dumbell flys?
I've never really done good mornings, but I'll definitely throw them into the mix!

As far as high carb/high sodium. For someone who isn't used to tri traing(myself) doing all three exercises twice a week (with my weekend run being approximately 6.5 miles) should I go for the high carb high sodium? I try to get enough calories after my workout so that if necessary I could be active an hour after my workout. (post workout shake with 3tbspn honey, and then a light meal 30-45 min later)

Also, what is zone 1,2,3?

My first bike workout with my own bike outdoors was surprisingly great! Idk if I mentioned this earlier, but there are a ton of bike trails where I live and biking is a great way to see a lot of my city that I wouldn't ordinarily see.

Because of the type of training AND the leanness both. That's where properly timed recovery and tight tight diet come into play. (This is the major diff between myself and my brother who is a lighter/even leaner marathon runner) (I'll rest more - I'll eat more, I WON'T be late for a meal, I'll thread a needle with carb/sodium and sufficient protein intake) - I have since upped BCAAs to assist me in preventing muscle degradation without excessive calorie consumption.

Are you always doing the full trifecta (swim/bike/run) as a complete workout 2x weekly or is that broken up into bricks or solo efforts?

For me, I get extra sore doing pull ups, so I'll do pulldowns and inverted bodyweight rows instead. There's a lot to be said for knowing yourself and what you may need in certain areas to maintain what you've got. I can't just abandon years of work and SOLELY go compound movements. I still do varied isolation movements for physique balance and range of motion work for certain body parts. For example: Rev flyes, isolation arm work, hip abduction/adduction, hip extension, 1 arm dbell rows, shoulder laterals, etc. all still exist for me because they keep me aesthetically and mechanically in balance.

For your running, look into J.Daniels' "Running Formula" - lots of informative help and a way to use his VDOT tables to fine tune your workouts.

The Zones pertain to intensity of effort based on % Max Heart Rate. There is also Lactate Threshold training, but the %max and VDOT tables by Daniels have helped a lot of people.

Re: High carb/sodium changes, etc. It's hard to know what changes to make to the diet without discussing what's been working for you thus far

Damn. Alright I'll look into the BCAAs...I need to look for a new multi anyways so I'll use this as an excuse to do both.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. They're for the most part all single work outs. Actually, it's this right here:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/training-plan...

I always do a little more than what the suggested time is though.

A lot of great info, I really appreciate it!!

Hopefully I haven't asked too many questions haha

Hows things going beserker?

Hey TJ,

sorry just saw this.
I was actually gonna ask this question in the forum but I guess I'll ask you:

I've been getting swimming headaches my last two sessions.
I googled it and someone mentioned that it had to do with pressure associated with the my goggles being too tight. So I tried to loosen them up and now water gets into my eye piece too easily. Any ideas what I should do? Also, can headaches be attributed to poor breathing in the pool? I'm still trying to get my breathing 100% down, I'm not sure if or when I'm supposed to exhale into the water and after one complete "lap" I usually have to stop to catch my breath. (fwiw, I've been swimming with goggles for about four weeks, so the headaches didn't start just when I got the goggles)

Other than that everything is great! My cardio has shot through the roof these past six weeks I love it. I'm still getting used to the bike, it's definitely my weakest point, my quads fatigue really fast. My run is awesome and I definitely have picked up speed and stamina. The swim is by far my favorite. Sometimes I'll swim on days I don't have to because it's so calming and puts me in such a great mood the rest of the day(other than the headaches the last two swim)

Thanks for checking in, happy Thanksgiving!

Edited by goberserk 2014-11-26 8:40 PM

I sometimes get overheated head (like a headache) from long or hard pool swims. That could be it, you are working hard in 80 degree water after all. There is also the possibility of CO2 buildup from not enough exhaling. Sometimes I have to self check to make sure I am expelling as much as I am taking in. Though I am not the ultimate swim expert, both of these things CAN result in headaches. You should be exhaling in the water that's for sure, exhale early and watch for bubbles in the water as a self-check.

Coming from weights background, the quads aren't used to distance and time hence the fatigue. How often do you still train legs? If so, try and give them extra time between weight workouts, and then when you are doing weights, cut down closer to 65% max (dependent on which exercise) and up the reps big time, and rest less in between sets. I started doing that when it wasn't a strength and size maintenance leg routine and it helped develop more leg stamina. Slowly but surely, as I go back to heavier workouts from time to time, I have now found myself wanting to just keep going at heavier weight, without much leg mass depletion, but leaner and waaay more conditioned. I'm looking forward to a whole winter of this

Good Luck
Happy Thanksgiving
(Being able to train to our heart's desire is truly something to be grateful for)

Edited by TJHammer 2014-11-27 9:10 AM

Hey TJ, sorry haven't logged on in a while! It turned out that it was a combination of too tight of goggles, but more so, I think it was CO2 buildup. I corrected my exhaling and form shortly after reading your responses and some articles, and I haven't had problems since.

The soreness in my quads is still there, but it has tremendously diminished as I continue to train, and grow, and heal. I'm also not sure why I didn't take this into account, but most of the trails I bike have hills, I competed in my first sprint which was all flat and my quads weren't nearly as tired.

Also, posted a new question here if you dont mind checking in

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

Hill work definitely the quad burner. Especially if you're heavier like we are. Not saying lighter guys have it easy, but pulling weight has an effect. I've recently developed left shoulder capsule inflammation discomfort from what I presume is over working, I still hit weights hard to maintain my musculature, and hard swim workouts in addition have beaten it up pretty badly. Had few indoor track meets and held my own AG in sprints. Happy about that. Good to hear that your efforts are paying off. How do feel muscularly/aesthetically, since we've mentioned that before.

Regarding what one drinks during rides. I won't chime in there, because sometimes I go differently than the norm (who am I kidding, I'm rarely by the book) - in intense rides I use dextrose with gatorade and water, but add Beta-Alanine, BCAA, Glutamine and sometimes creatine as well. I spare myself muscle depletion or loss that way, and still believe that Beta-Al helps with lactate build up.
Oh,.......in summer months or severely heated workouts, I might add sodium if the gatorade is not enough.