General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win Rss Feed  
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2014-11-03 6:59 PM

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Subject: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM

The Global Cycling Network (GCN) on YouTube tested which is more efficient - pedaling in circles or just pushing down.  They did two 10-minute steady state rides on a treadmill separated enough to get complete rest.  One was with clipless pedals and another with flat.

Results?

Average HR over the last minute. Clipless: 175, Flats: 180

Blood Lactate: 3.1 mmol each

VO2. Clipless:  53, Flats: 51

Going based off that, flat pedals would be more efficient, which was surprising to me and the test rider at GCN.  Figured I'd share the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM) with everyone here.  



2014-11-03 7:12 PM
in reply to: C_Hassard

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Subject: RE: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win
i'd hypothesize that there is no where enough data to make claims such as that, one person doing each condition only once would not provide any statistically significant data - in fact they even say that in the first 30 seconds of the video that the results are basically null without further testing/more participants

but breaking down the results, wouldn't a HR of 175 vs. 180 be an indicator of less energy being expended (occurred on the clipless), when you look at the other two measures - one where the results were the same for both and the other where the results (VO2 fell in the good range for an athlete in the 26-35 age group - assuming that is his age range) - isn't a higher VO2 better? I don't know this)
2014-11-03 7:52 PM
in reply to: C_Hassard

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Subject: RE: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win
Then use them.

Or if you like clipless better, use them.

Whatever gets you on the bike and riding.
2014-11-03 8:07 PM
in reply to: C_Hassard

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Subject: RE: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win

The study was on the pedaling method, not the pedal system. Meaning the different systems were used in an attempt to help control their intended variables, but were not intended to be the variables themselves. Saying that flat pedals "win" or the more clear flat pedals are more efficient is not really what this said as you can pedal with cliplesss just like you can with flats. However, you can not pull up on the stroke with the flat pedals. Only push down. And that difference is why they switched the pedal systems as this difference is what they wanted to focus on.

2014-11-03 8:20 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win

Originally posted by brigby1

The study was on the pedaling method, not the pedal system. Meaning the different systems were used in an attempt to help control their intended variables, but were not intended to be the variables themselves. Saying that flat pedals "win" or the more clear flat pedals are more efficient is not really what this said as you can pedal with cliplesss just like you can with flats. However, you can not pull up on the stroke with the flat pedals. Only push down. And that difference is why they switched the pedal systems as this difference is what they wanted to focus on.

Correct.  

And what would be interesting to know is if the test subject (who was already biased about pedaling circles being more efficient before the test) went out of his way to make an effort to "pull up" during the test to subconsciously skew the results the way he thought they should be.  And in that process, impacted his normal pedaling efficiency in a negative way because he didn't apply as much power by pushing down.

2014-11-03 10:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win
Originally posted by C_Hassard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM

The Global Cycling Network (GCN) on YouTube tested which is more efficient - pedaling in circles or just pushing down.  They did two 10-minute steady state rides on a treadmill separated enough to get complete rest.  One was with clipless pedals and another with flat.

Results?

Average HR over the last minute. Clipless: 175, Flats: 180

Blood Lactate: 3.1 mmol each

VO2. Clipless:  53, Flats: 51

Going based off that, flat pedals would be more efficient, which was surprising to me and the test rider at GCN.  Figured I'd share the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM) with everyone here.  




Let's just assume that those numbers are correct that Simon pedaled with his best skill in each test and didn't alter his effort. I have a completley different conclusion.

With clipless pedals more muscles are involved in pedaling since the "pulling" muscles CAN take part. More muscles = more contribution to do the same work, which means less work per muscle fiber, but a higher total oxygen consumption. In addition, he did this at a lower perceived effort and a lower HR.

Take away the clipless, fewer muscles can take part, so less blood flow is needed hence a lower Vo2 max. the muscles need to do more work, hence a higher HR to get the same total work done.

AGain this is making a lot of assumptions, but this is totally misleading. It's the wrong thing to study anyway.

Edited by AdventureBear 2014-11-03 10:23 PM


2014-11-04 6:29 AM
in reply to: C_Hassard

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Subject: RE: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win
I haven't watched the video but how exactly did they calculate efficiency? Further, what are the error estimates for the data?

Based on what I've read about this test, I would say the conclusions one can draw about this is...absolutely nothing.

Shane
2014-11-04 9:57 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by C_Hassard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM

The Global Cycling Network (GCN) on YouTube tested which is more efficient - pedaling in circles or just pushing down.  They did two 10-minute steady state rides on a treadmill separated enough to get complete rest.  One was with clipless pedals and another with flat.

Results?

Average HR over the last minute. Clipless: 175, Flats: 180

Blood Lactate: 3.1 mmol each

VO2. Clipless:  53, Flats: 51

Going based off that, flat pedals would be more efficient, which was surprising to me and the test rider at GCN.  Figured I'd share the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM) with everyone here.  

Let's just assume that those numbers are correct that Simon pedaled with his best skill in each test and didn't alter his effort. I have a completley different conclusion. With clipless pedals more muscles are involved in pedaling since the "pulling" muscles CAN take part. More muscles = more contribution to do the same work, which means less work per muscle fiber, but a higher total oxygen consumption. In addition, he did this at a lower perceived effort and a lower HR. Take away the clipless, fewer muscles can take part, so less blood flow is needed hence a lower Vo2 max. the muscles need to do more work, hence a higher HR to get the same total work done. AGain this is making a lot of assumptions, but this is totally misleading. It's the wrong thing to study anyway.

 

^^ I have always thought one of the benefits of clipless is that you have more of the leg to share the given load. 

2014-11-04 10:09 AM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Most Efficient Way of Pedaling - Flat Pedals Win

Originally posted by Aarondb4

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by C_Hassard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM

The Global Cycling Network (GCN) on YouTube tested which is more efficient - pedaling in circles or just pushing down.  They did two 10-minute steady state rides on a treadmill separated enough to get complete rest.  One was with clipless pedals and another with flat.

Results?

Average HR over the last minute. Clipless: 175, Flats: 180

Blood Lactate: 3.1 mmol each

VO2. Clipless:  53, Flats: 51

Going based off that, flat pedals would be more efficient, which was surprising to me and the test rider at GCN.  Figured I'd share the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM) with everyone here.  

Let's just assume that those numbers are correct that Simon pedaled with his best skill in each test and didn't alter his effort. I have a completley different conclusion. With clipless pedals more muscles are involved in pedaling since the "pulling" muscles CAN take part. More muscles = more contribution to do the same work, which means less work per muscle fiber, but a higher total oxygen consumption. In addition, he did this at a lower perceived effort and a lower HR. Take away the clipless, fewer muscles can take part, so less blood flow is needed hence a lower Vo2 max. the muscles need to do more work, hence a higher HR to get the same total work done. AGain this is making a lot of assumptions, but this is totally misleading. It's the wrong thing to study anyway.

 

^^ I have always thought one of the benefits of clipless is that you have more of the leg to share the given load. 

It's because there is no chance for shoes to 'slip' or come off the pedals.  It makes it easier to handle the bike while sontinuing to output steady power.  However, if you use them to try to 'pull up' and 'share the load', odds are you are wasting energy that would be better applied in the downstroke.  In that sense (and assuming you can hold your foot stable on the pedal while riding), then I'm not sure one would expect to see any real difference in the pedaling efficiency of either system.

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