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2014-11-13 5:35 PM

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Subject: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question
Background:
My first sprint tri was in Dec 2012. I've done several sprints, 1 oly, and 1 half. Now I think it's time to do a full distance this coming year.
I'm trying to put my training schedule together. Looking at riding 4x a week and running 6x per week on the BarryP plan.
I've got my swimming mapped out but I have one basic question:

Question:
What should my longest run and longest ride be? I'm trying to backwards plan and it would help. Also should I have my longest ride/run done several times?
Your input would be very valuable.
Thanks in advance,
Joe

Edited by joestop74 2014-11-13 5:38 PM


2014-11-13 9:06 PM
in reply to: #5067437

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Subject: RE: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question
Hi Joe. I am doing my first IM in Cozumel in 17 days. I have been following Matt Fitzgerald's Super Simple Ironman plan. If you google it, you will find it. He also has one for a HIM. The longest run I have done in training is 18 miles, but for the week, I put in roughly 35. I actually emailed Matt and asked him if 18 was enough. Surprisingly, he actually wrote me back and said 18 is plenty, when you add it to the rest of the volume for that particular week. I feel like I am pretty well prepared to finish my first IM. His plan really is easy to follow. I am married with two kids, and I still found a way to get 95% of the sessions in. Good luck.
2014-11-13 9:55 PM
in reply to: Jeff B

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Subject: RE: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question
Thanks for your input! That's a huge help.
Married with kids too, so that's nice to hear that you could get that in.
2014-11-14 7:10 AM
in reply to: joestop74

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Subject: RE: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question

I'm not a coach.  I've completed 3 140.6 races.  

Running 6x per week to train for an Ironman sounds like a recipe for disaster.  You aren't giving your body much time to recover so either the quality of the run ends up being pretty low or you get injured.  Keep in mind you're also asking to bike 4x per week and swim too.  Yes, some people run 6x a week without injury (I did that when I started running in 2005).  I got lucky to not injure myself.  

For my IM training, I loosely follow the Intermediate IM plan from this site.  It builds up to a couple 100-mile (5.5-6 hour) rides and a couple 3-hour runs (which for me works out to 18-20 miles).  I'd typically do 3 5.5-6 hour rides and 2 3 hour runs.  My training this year for B2B was considerably lighter than my other two races.  My typical week was as follows:
M:  Run 5-7 miles
T:  Swim 3000, Bike 25-30 miles
W:  Run 5-7 miles
R:  Swim 3000, Bike 30-35 miles
F:  Run 5-7 miles
S:  Bike 4-6 hours
S:  Run 2-3 hours

This doesn't include scheduled rest days, but there were weeks when I'd skip a bike or skip a weekday morning run.  

Ideally, you get to the start of the race still enjoying your bike, healthy, rested, and confident.  Rather than build your own plan from scratch, consider hiring a coach (if training time is limited or you're prone to injury) or using a plan without significant modification.  Read up and pick a plan that fits your schedule and helps you achieve your goal.  Trust the plan but don't be a slave to it.  Pre-printed plans don't know that you're sick, just got back from a business trip, or are celebrating your anniversary.  (For my first IM, one of the 3-hour runs fell on Mother's day.  I did NOT spend 3 hours running that day.)  

 

2014-11-14 8:20 AM
in reply to: joestop74

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Subject: RE: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question

Originally posted by joestop74  Question: What should my longest run and longest ride be? I'm trying to backwards plan and it would help. Also should I have my longest ride/run done several times? Your input would be very valuable. Thanks in advance, Joe

6x Ironman and have coached a few people across the line.

The point to remember about long course tri training is that consistency and cumulative training stress are what matters and not a couple of individual workouts.  People stress about and way overemphasize the "long" workouts.  IMO, the long run is the single most overrated workout in triathlon training.  Something like the BarryP plan or a modification of it is a better way to tackle the run training.  Disregard the other poster's comment that running 6x per week is asking for injury.  If you run like an idiot, then yes, 6x per week would probably hurt you.  Like too much interval kind of training and not enough easy running.  If you do most of your running easy with a smattering of hard running... you'll be fine.  My only other caveat with running 6x per week is being able to actually run 6x per week.  It's often hard to squeeze in all those workouts.

Back to your exact questions.  Let me start by saying that my hierarchy of training for IM is:

  1. Bike
  2. Bike
  3. Bike
  4. Run
  5. Swim

I'm not discounting the swim and run at all but lack of bike fitness means a lack of a good race.  You could be Michael Phelps and Meb mixed into one and if you didn't emphasize your bike training you're going to have a sub-par to terrible run.  The IM course is littered with Boston Marathon qualifiers who run/walk 5+ hour IM marathons.

Riding 4x per week is good, 5x is better if you can squeeze it in.  Since it's your first I would suggest you do a couple of 100+ mile rides.  Not because of any magical benefit but because of the piece of mind and confidence you'll receive.  If you were an IM vet I'd tell you 100+ mile rides were basically unnecessary unless you enjoy sitting on a bike seat for 5-7 hours, in which case go crazy with 'em.  I would make 4-4.5 hour rides the staple of your weekend long ride.  But do those at an intensity level a notch above your 112 mile IM race day pace (however it is you'll be measuring it).  I would also make sure to do one race rehearsal type long workout (100+ mile ride plus 1 hour run) in order to test your pacing and nutrition. 

4x bike per week I'd do two 1 hour trainer rides, one 2 hour trainer or outdoor ride, one 4-4.5 hour long ride.  If you can ride 5x just mix in another one hour trainer ride.

4-6x running per week is great.  Just be real careful how you get those miles in and how the harder workouts are structured.  The BarryP 3-2-1 method uses 3 short, 2 medium, 1 long run with the short runs accounting for 10% each of weekly volume, medium 20% each, and the long run 30%.  Let's say you targeted 40 miles per week.  That would be 4,4,4,8,8,12 for your runs.  You'll notice that your long run would only be 12 miles.  Remember it's the accumulated training stress that matters.  Your six runs per week of 40 miles with a long run of 12 miles is better than Joe Schmo triathlete down the street who is only running three or four times per week for 30 miles but who is going 18 miles for the long run.

That's not to say you can't mix in a 16-18 miler every three or four weeks.  It's just not necessary to do it every week.

Be careful about the intensity of the runs.  IMO, interval training is just a waste of time for most beginner IM athletes.  All those repeats of six minute miles sound great in training but they're basically meaningless come race day when you're slogging along at 11-13 minute per mile pace.  Just get the mileage.  Run mostly easy.  Run just a little hard.

 

2014-11-14 10:15 AM
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Subject: RE: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question
Wow Gman and Mcfuzz! Thanks for the detailed responses. This is really helping me navigate the schedule and knowing the limits I should set.
Thanks for the input on getting some coaching help. I know a local guy so I might just see about hiring him.

Gman, I'm definitely looking at putting in a 5th ride, and will plan on a couple 100-milers. Also, your pacing tips are helpful. I think I overdo too many of my training runs and was worried about that with an IM distance. I will make sure I'm pacing better - both with your suggestions and Mcfuzz's frequency concerns.

Thanks again, this has been extremely helpful.

Edited by joestop74 2014-11-14 10:16 AM


2014-11-14 10:55 AM
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Subject: RE: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question

Originally posted by joestop74 Gman, I'm definitely looking at putting in a 5th ride, and will plan on a couple 100-milers. Also, your pacing tips are helpful. I think I overdo too many of my training runs and was worried about that with an IM distance. I will make sure I'm pacing better - both with your suggestions and Mcfuzz's frequency concerns. Thanks again, this has been extremely helpful.

And I didn't mean to be so dismissive of McFuzz's comment.  I'm sure we're on the same page but he just didn't elaborate.  Running stupid is what causes injury.  Running a lot, but wisely, is very beneficial.

You just can't hammer too much of the run training while gearing up for an IM.  The recovery cost vs the injury risk vs the race day benefit just isn't there for the vast majority of AG athletes.  My advice would be different if you were at the pointy end of the field and looking to punch a ticket to Kona, and in actuality I'd refer you to someone else that has experience with elite level athletes.  I've done 10:XX Ironman and top-15% finishes, so I'm no slouch, but I wouldn't begin to know what it's like to advise someone with 9:XX speed.  I'm assuming you're not at the pointy end of the spear.

It also helps to sometimes think about your training schedule in terms outside of the typical 7 day week.  For instance, think about getting x number of workouts in 10 days or 14 days to allow more flexibility with the training schedule.

2014-11-14 12:03 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by joestop74 Gman, I'm definitely looking at putting in a 5th ride, and will plan on a couple 100-milers. Also, your pacing tips are helpful. I think I overdo too many of my training runs and was worried about that with an IM distance. I will make sure I'm pacing better - both with your suggestions and Mcfuzz's frequency concerns. Thanks again, this has been extremely helpful.

And I didn't mean to be so dismissive of McFuzz's comment.  I'm sure we're on the same page but he just didn't elaborate.  Running stupid is what causes injury.  Running a lot, but wisely, is very beneficial.

You just can't hammer too much of the run training while gearing up for an IM.  The recovery cost vs the injury risk vs the race day benefit just isn't there for the vast majority of AG athletes.  My advice would be different if you were at the pointy end of the field and looking to punch a ticket to Kona, and in actuality I'd refer you to someone else that has experience with elite level athletes.  I've done 10:XX Ironman and top-15% finishes, so I'm no slouch, but I wouldn't begin to know what it's like to advise someone with 9:XX speed.  I'm assuming you're not at the pointy end of the spear.

It also helps to sometimes think about your training schedule in terms outside of the typical 7 day week.  For instance, think about getting x number of workouts in 10 days or 14 days to allow more flexibility with the training schedule.




Thanks for the clarification - that's very helpful! Yeah, I'm not at the pointy end of that spear. But again your response has helped me to project my running much better. I've been tempted to ramp it up over the course of the year and I think now I have a better handle on gradual progression.
2014-11-14 12:41 PM
in reply to: joestop74

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Subject: RE: First Full-Distance November 2015 - training question
GMAN gives good advice. I'm not nearly as experienced, but I basically followed the same philosophy for my first IM and was happy with the results. In training for IMFL I did a lot of ~4 hr rides (~85 mile) rides in training, at a higher intensity than race pace (measured by power). I did end up doing four 100+ mile rides, but I love to ride the bike and I'm also a firm believer that LC racing is all about bike fitness. I have a "bike lots, bike hard" philosophy. So I definitely agree with riding 4x week. Make every ride count. If you don't bike with a power meter, I strongly suggest you look into getting one.

I ran 5x a week BarryP style, nearly all of them slow easy miles to try and avoid injury. I see no real sense in hammering 7:30 min miles in training, if you know your IM pace will be 8:30. My longest run was 19 miles, and I did only 3 runs longer than 16.

It all worked for me at IMFL. I hit my power number on the bike and finished with relatively fresh legs, and then ran better than expected (3:40).
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