General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Testing - Poor Results, what to do? Rss Feed  
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2014-11-23 7:25 PM

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Ottawa, Ontario
Subject: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
So after not training regularly I decided over the last little while to get back into things and do the Rose City Half in Welland Ontario next summer.

Now I have done bike rides and as I am in the military, I need to be in at least ok shape. But I am 43 and about 220lbs. My last HIM was in '06 and it was a slowish 6h10m I think on a hilly technical course. Welland is flat, flat, flat, swim is faster too in sheltered old canal and I want to break 6hrs...not by much just break it.

Now to the testing:

1. MAF testing on the run - so I did a 5min warm up and then went 5km at 137-142bpm (my MAF is at 137 but after listening to some "experts" I decided that a range is a bit more sane). My run was slow, slower than slow and that's coming from a guy called "Slow Triathlete". So I kept it in the range with a few walking breaks with more or less a somewhat steady pace. Unfortunately that pace was slow. I was able to to the 5k in about 34min. Now when I have run a 5k in the past I was rolling in at 22-23min for a 5k. So I guess my run and base needs work.

2. Onto the bike. I had a good rest. I was on my well fitted P3 on my Wahoo Kickr and conducting the test through Trainerroad and the 20min test. My test was ok I though, my HR never got too high, highest was by the end of test at 170bpm. I felt like I was going all out, maybe not. Nonetheless my FTP was listed 169, which I thought was low. I am going to be slow or I have a lot of work - well more like both.

3. Swim. No problems there. I am faster than most and always have been that. I like to swim though and that's always the way right?

So now I ask you my BT'rs, I want to MAF run for 2 months building volume and hopefully speed and following this maybe institute some interval work and tempo runs. I also plan on doing the TR Sweetspot Base training low volume 1, followed by 2 and then sweet spot mid vol 2 and then work up to my race on the HIM plan.

Solid plan, or am I out to lunch?


2014-11-23 8:13 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
Never heard of MAF, so I had to google it. It looks like it' one of those HR - Age formulas. Those have pretty much been debunked. If your bike threshold HR was 170 (probably a little lower since you probably tested over FTP), then your run should be ABOVE that normally. The best way to do this is a 30 minute all out test. There's a page on here (arg!! can't find it), that I'm sure someone will post with the technique of it. Basically:

Warm up for 15 minutes with some small pick ups at the end (near race pace). Set GPS watch auto lap to off. Start the run/bike at an all out sustainable effort for 30 minutes. At 10 minutes into it, hit lap and continue going all out for another 20 minutes. If you faded at the end, the test is bad and needs to be redone. If you felt like you had a lot more at the end, again the test was bad. You take the average HR of the 20 min interval and that's your threshold HR (test bike and run as they will be different). Use that and the zone calculator here to get your HR zones.

More to your questions... I do think a 169 FTP is pretty low for you. If it's been a while, then it could be spot on. I know my FTP right now is about 40 watts lower than what it was 2 months ago. Doing 1 hr/biking week did not sustain me like I thought it would. Trying to bike for 2 hours today at different intervals kicked my butt! Wake up call for me and I'll know I'll recover but it will take some hard work....or at least actually biking instead of sitting around Good luck out there.

Edited by Blastman 2014-11-23 8:14 PM
2014-11-23 9:35 PM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
re : HR training articles

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/category.asp?catid=54 is the page on BT with several articles on hr training and testing

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=... is a link to the test protocol to find Lactate Threshold
2014-11-24 3:12 AM
in reply to: slow triathlete

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
I think the testing you did sounds fine.

Your results are not "poor"...unless the data was bad.

Speed, Hr is all relative.

Go ahead and use MAF for the next 2 months if that is what you are familiar with. You'll likely find it's a sustainable effort level and will keep you from going to hard at first and possibly causing setbacks due to injury for example.

The best news about your FTP of 169 is that you've got a great upside potential!

Your goal seems reasonable to break 6 hours, but it's a goal and not a guarantee. Sounds to me like you are methodical, you track stuff that is important to you including your weight, and as you progress you should begin to have an idea of whether or not your goal times are achievable.

Just keep going...nothing else you can do, right?

Oh, and get the word "poor" out of your vocabulary in regards to testing & performance. Poor is an emotional valuation, not a objective assessment. Tests are information you use to inform training. You've been informed...now go train.
2014-11-24 6:15 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Ottawa, Ontario
Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
Thanks for the reply!

Injuries have been an issue and why ended up switching to MAF style lower stress type work.

Agree that the word poor, is negative and I certainly should have used lower or similar verbiage. It's only up from here. I will test again in about 4 weeks and see where my progress is...

You are also correct in that I am very analytical. I like numbers and other data like food, sleep, terrain, weather - everything that's helps me understand what is happening or could happen.

Thanks again.
2014-11-24 6:43 AM
in reply to: slow triathlete

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
You mention running a 5k in the low 20's - how long ago was this and how does this pace compare to your test?

Shane


2014-11-24 7:44 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
That was about 2yrs ago at 22/23min and in the last 6months I've done 25min prior to switching training to the low stress MAF style.
2014-11-24 7:46 AM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
So you race at about 8:10/mile right now - what was the pace of your test?

ETA - sorry missed it in the original post - so about 11:00/mile for the test. That doesn't look completely unreasonable so I would focus on lots of easy running in the 10:30-11:00/mile range and after a solid block (six weeks or so) then retest and go from there.

Shane

Edited by gsmacleod 2014-11-24 8:12 AM
2014-11-24 7:56 AM
in reply to: slow triathlete

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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?

Checking on a few things here. You ran the entire 5k at a HR range of 137-142 bpm? Then on the bike you somehow had a peak all way up at 170 bpm? Didn't see the bike HR ave. Unless this is what that 169 was meant to be (or estimated threshold hr)? Was it 169 watts or bpm? One is power and the other is HR. Wondering how much activity/training there was before doing either of these tests.

2014-11-24 9:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?


Edited by DaveL 2014-11-24 9:09 AM
2014-11-24 1:53 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
Originally posted by brigby1

Checking on a few things here. You ran the entire 5k at a HR range of 137-142 bpm? Then on the bike you somehow had a peak all way up at 170 bpm? Didn't see the bike HR ave. Unless this is what that 169 was meant to be (or estimated threshold hr)? Was it 169 watts or bpm? One is power and the other is HR. Wondering how much activity/training there was before doing either of these tests.




The run test was a MAF run test at the MAF range through the 180 minus method (yes I know it's generic). The entire was meant to be done at MAF and not at tempo or threshold. Never cam near threshold on the run test...not supposed to.

Bike was done as a 20min power test, I did not post an average HR and cannot recall right now without pulling the full data and I beleive it was in the 145 range. FTP was determined by the trainer road app and not me. I do not have a power meter only the Kickr. 169 is the determined FTP through the test with the power from the kickr and my HRM data. I am certain I didn't push hard enough as I was not near my max which is about 182bpm


2014-11-25 11:45 AM
in reply to: slow triathlete

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Subject: RE: Testing - Poor Results, what to do?
Your MAF test should be ran at your top of zone 2. It is no way going to be close to an anerobic 5k test and cant be comapired to a FTP test on a bike.

2 months ago my maf was 11:42 with coaching and proper training I finished my MAF the other day at 9:20.

find a plan and stick to it... and it will improve quickly.. I suck at running more than the average person and if i can improve anyone can!
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