General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Age groupers and doping Rss Feed  
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2014-11-25 5:46 PM
in reply to: Sidney Porter

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping
Originally posted by Sidney Porter

The whole thing about drug testing is that people have figured out how to get around the day of the event testing. It seem like when people are caught it is the random out of season testing. My understanding is that elite and pro's need to make themselves available within 24 hours at any point. AG people are not going to sign on for getting a phone call and needing to give a sample on a random Tuesday. What you will be left with is catching people who took cold medicine the day of the event.


Pretty much.


2014-11-25 6:23 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

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2014-11-25 7:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping

Originally posted by Sidney Porter
Originally posted by pugpenny Perhaps I initially misunderstood your reasoning that USAT does not care about age group athletes.... well not enough to drug test anyway. Do you - or anyone on this forum - know how much it costs to drug test at the larger events? I would be interested to know the cost. I am also interested in why South Africa IS interested enough in AG competition to go ahead and test the woman in the original post?
For comparison a home steroid test is about $140. A normal home drug test is less than $10 (for 12 drugs) less than $4 for the (5 drugs) http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/steroidconfirm-steroid-abuse-urine... http://www.homehealthtesting.com/home-drug-test-way-urine-test-p-10... http://www.homehealthtesting.com/way-urine-drug-test-strip-p-110.ht...

I have absolutely no idea how much it costs to test, but it's gotta be more than a home test. I was tested in July of this year. They had to pay someone to follow me around until I was ready to go to the bathroom, to watch me go to the bathroom, to follow me around again, when the first sample wasn't enough, to watch me again, to fill out paperwork, to provide, package and ship an A and B sample. To test and A sample and possibly a B sample and to jump though more hoops if things go wrong and to coordinate with all of the governing bodies. Besides I assume the cost of insurance is in there somewhere. And that was in in-competition test.

ETA: And that was just a urine test. There's also a blood test.



Edited by jeng 2014-11-25 7:39 PM
2014-11-25 7:53 PM
in reply to: jeng

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping

Originally posted by jeng

Originally posted by Sidney Porter
Originally posted by pugpenny Perhaps I initially misunderstood your reasoning that USAT does not care about age group athletes.... well not enough to drug test anyway. Do you - or anyone on this forum - know how much it costs to drug test at the larger events? I would be interested to know the cost. I am also interested in why South Africa IS interested enough in AG competition to go ahead and test the woman in the original post?
For comparison a home steroid test is about $140. A normal home drug test is less than $10 (for 12 drugs) less than $4 for the (5 drugs) http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/steroidconfirm-steroid-abuse-urine... http://www.homehealthtesting.com/home-drug-test-way-urine-test-p-10... http://www.homehealthtesting.com/way-urine-drug-test-strip-p-110.ht...

I have absolutely no idea how much it costs to test, but it's gotta be more than a home test. I was tested in July of this year. They had to pay someone to follow me around until I was ready to go to the bathroom, to watch me go to the bathroom, to follow me around again, when the first sample wasn't enough, to watch me again, to fill out paperwork, to provide, package and ship an A and B sample. To test and A sample and possibly a B sample and to jump though more hoops if things go wrong and to coordinate with all of the governing bodies. Besides I assume the cost of insurance is in there somewhere. And that was in in-competition test.

ETA: And that was just a urine test. There's also a blood test.

Yeah, most peple don't really have any idea what testing entails, especially if the results of that testing can be disqualification or some other sanction.  Now the lawyers frequently have to get involved.....and that's even before the lawsuits and appeals start.  There will be no testing of people who do AG triathlon to any level that equals deterrent. 

 

2014-11-25 7:53 PM
in reply to: jeng

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping

I just race for me.  I couldn't care less about what other people do.

2014-11-25 8:02 PM
in reply to: jeng

Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping

I've read numerous articles in the past where race directors claim that it costs anywhere from $3000 to $10000 to do drug testing at a single event.



2014-11-25 9:50 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap


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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping
Originally posted by Leegoocrap

I'd think that if you post on an online forum dedicated to something... that something is important to you, whether you choose to believe it or not.




It is important to ME.

Which is why I find it annoying that people are cheating.

It's not important in the grand scheme of things. Many people who place in their age group in local events seem to have a higher-than-realistic opinion of their own talent-- which is I guess what leads to even more ego-pumping and the desire to dope. In some people-- I realize it's still a minority.
2014-11-26 3:56 AM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping

Originally posted by jennifer_runs
Originally posted by Leegoocrap I'd think that if you post on an online forum dedicated to something... that something is important to you, whether you choose to believe it or not.
It is important to ME. Which is why I find it annoying that people are cheating. It's not important in the grand scheme of things. Many people who place in their age group in local events seem to have a higher-than-realistic opinion of their own talent-- which is I guess what leads to even more ego-pumping and the desire to dope. In some people-- I realize it's still a minority.

 

I don't think people who choose to be competitive either with themselves, or within their AG in triathlon equates with higher-than-realistic opinion of their talent. Triathlon is a competition, like it or not. Being competitive does NOT with equate with being elitist or egotistical and some of the most competitive athletes can be the best ambassadors for the sport. (Chrissie Wellington is just one of many great examples, and when I say competitive, I'm not just saying that just because she was fast/successful - read her book and it's very clear that she was willing to drive herself beyond all her limits if that's what it took to win and she hated, hated losing, in anything.)

 

It is a race, and you train to get faster. Just because you cannot win the Olympics, or even the local Thanksgiving 5k, doesn't mean you're being egotistical or unrealistic when you pay close attention to training methods, optimize your race strategy, and take advantage of whatever legal tools and speed-gaining aids (like aerodynamics) to get the best performance possible from yourself. 

 

Triathlon is also wonderfully inclusive in that you can still participate and get great satisfaction and fitness benefits from 'just finishing', no problem with that either. Plenty of folks come in on mountain bikes, are one and doners, or can't barely make the race cutoffs, and it's still great to have them.  But this also doesn't mean that competition, and especially the fairness of competition, which are violated by doping, should be brushed off and ignored. 

 



Edited by yazmaster 2014-11-26 4:02 AM
2014-11-26 7:25 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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2014-11-26 10:24 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping
Thank you for putting into words what I struggled to express. Perfect!

Patti
2014-11-26 11:03 AM
in reply to: pugpenny

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping
Originally posted by pugpenny

Thank you for putting into words what I struggled to express. Perfect!

Patti


x2

thanks Yaz


2014-11-26 11:12 AM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping
Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by jennifer_runs
Originally posted by Leegoocrap I'd think that if you post on an online forum dedicated to something... that something is important to you, whether you choose to believe it or not.
It is important to ME. Which is why I find it annoying that people are cheating. It's not important in the grand scheme of things. Many people who place in their age group in local events seem to have a higher-than-realistic opinion of their own talent-- which is I guess what leads to even more ego-pumping and the desire to dope. In some people-- I realize it's still a minority.

 

I don't think people who choose to be competitive either with themselves, or within their AG in triathlon equates with higher-than-realistic opinion of their talent. Triathlon is a competition, like it or not. Being competitive does NOT with equate with being elitist or egotistical and some of the most competitive athletes can be the best ambassadors for the sport. (Chrissie Wellington is just one of many great examples, and when I say competitive, I'm not just saying that just because she was fast/successful - read her book and it's very clear that she was willing to drive herself beyond all her limits if that's what it took to win and she hated, hated losing, in anything.)

 

It is a race, and you train to get faster. Just because you cannot win the Olympics, or even the local Thanksgiving 5k, doesn't mean you're being egotistical or unrealistic when you pay close attention to training methods, optimize your race strategy, and take advantage of whatever legal tools and speed-gaining aids (like aerodynamics) to get the best performance possible from yourself. 

 

Triathlon is also wonderfully inclusive in that you can still participate and get great satisfaction and fitness benefits from 'just finishing', no problem with that either. Plenty of folks come in on mountain bikes, are one and doners, or can't barely make the race cutoffs, and it's still great to have them.  But this also doesn't mean that competition, and especially the fairness of competition, which are violated by doping, should be brushed off and ignored. 

 




I fear I've been woefully misunderstood.

I actually agree with all that. And I certainly never said that doping should be ignored or brushed off.

My point was those who dope are putting too much importance on the results at the expense of what really should be important.

I wasn't judging people who strive for excellence and improvement in their own results-- anyone who reads any of my other posts knows that I'm a huge proponent of that. Just that those who dope take it to a level beyond what is reasonable, and that they have missed the point of competition at a recreational level.




Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-11-26 11:14 AM
2014-11-27 1:08 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping

No Jennifer, you haven't been misunderstood. 

You've just been called out by a small faction of the 2:15 Oly crowd who wishes they could be drug tested to validate the idea they have of themselves that they are somehow worthy of testing.  Never mind the fact that their 2:15 Oly would have them about 600th at the Oly AG national championship race and sitting at home for the Oly AG world championship.  Lord knows if we could test the 599 people who would finish in front of them they might actually qualify.    .  

Eh, probably a bit harsh......2:15 is big time at the Monday night beer league.  

I know, fellas, I know.......but really, ya'll should stick to picking on people your own size.  All you really did was prove her point.  I'm your huckleberry.  

AG triathlon is for fun.......check your ego as you step up to the yokel podium.  Nobody is ever going to drug test you.  It's just not fast enough.  That's the crux of this discussion. 

 

2014-11-27 5:56 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping
Originally posted by Left Brain

No Jennifer, you haven't been misunderstood. 

You've just been called out by a small faction of the 2:15 Oly crowd who wishes they could be drug tested to validate the idea they have of themselves that they are somehow worthy of testing.  Never mind the fact that their 2:15 Oly would have them about 600th at the Oly AG national championship race and sitting at home for the Oly AG world championship.  Lord knows if we could test the 599 people who would finish in front of them they might actually qualify.    .  

Eh, probably a bit harsh......2:15 is big time at the Monday night beer league.  

I know, fellas, I know.......but really, ya'll should stick to picking on people your own size.  All you really did was prove her point.  I'm your huckleberry.  

AG triathlon is for fun.......check your ego as you step up to the yokel podium.  Nobody is ever going to drug test you.  It's just not fast enough.  That's the crux of this discussion. 

 





LB, I know you are trying to get a rise out of people. Without coffee it's not happening here.
I will try once to explain although I know I'd be better off making coffee

Age Group triathlon exists for a reason. So people of around the same age can compete, to different levels, with people of their age. While it's not a perfect system, it has been adopted by most sports, running, swimming, triathlon. The 70 yo man cannot compete with the 16yo Jr. Hell, the 50 yo man can't compete with the 35. But if he chooses to compete, he is allowed to and paid for a fair race. That is what Yaz said.

While you belittle the 2h15 Olympic, for a 70 year old man, it is quite an achievement. More of an achievement than that 16m whatever 5km Jr does. and that you feel you need to tell a triathlon forum. There are 99 people in your state, there are 50 states and there are 100s of countries. There are literallly thousands of kids worldwide that can run that. But you make a big deal of it. And you belittle the 2h15 Oly the 70 year old man can do.

You yourself like to brag abut his AG medals and they are an accomplishment. But he also won them in a 2nd tier group for kids his age. The real "fast lkids" raced in Jr Elite, not AG. Does this make his accomplishments less ? NO. Is he part of a Wednesday night softball league ? NO. Why don't you apply that standard to others ? Is he entitled to a fair race although he isn't racing worlds as a Jr Elite but rather an AGer ?

If that 70 yo man wants to try and qualify for Kona, he has the right to a fair race. He has paid for a fair race and it's USAT, USADA, WTC...whoever to provide a fair race.

They have limited budget, and drug testing is probably not the most effective way to optimize fairness. I didn't say achieve 100% fairness. I said to optimize. I personally would like to see more inexpensive draft marshalls than drug testing.

But if they are going to offer highly coveted Kona slots, if they are going to make true "world championship" events, they have to make them fair and finding solutions to drug testing is part of that. Current drug testing does not work. But it doesn't mean the problem should be ignored.






Edited by marcag 2014-11-27 6:01 AM
2014-11-27 5:58 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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2014-11-27 6:04 AM
in reply to: marcag

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2014-11-27 6:55 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping
Originally posted by Fred D

Sports, like Triathlon can teach us a lot. Highs and lows, learning to succeed, learning how to come back from failure. I try to be the best I can be at the important things in life, I do it without cheating.


I think this may be the best point in the thread; I coach athletes in a variety of spots, with a wide variety of backgrounds, goals and abilities. If the only reason people participated in sports was to win, then very few people would compete in anything. The true value in sport is not winning or competing for the win, it is the lessons that we take from our participation; the victories and the challenges. It has been shown time and again that participation in sports is a positive for most because of the life lessons it teaches and those who are or have been involved in sport tend to be more successful in all aspects of their lives.

As far as cheating, this is, IMO an important aspect that sports should teach and value - if someone is willing to cheat to win at a triathlon, then that speaks volumes about their character and that they are likely willing to cheat in all aspects of their lives. While I understand the prohibitive costs of testing AGers regularly, I would like to see at least targeted testing - for example, WTC tests everyone who qualifies for Kona at the race they qualify and then informs them that they may be tested OOC anytime in the next twelve months. Not that they will be testing all those but to do targeted testing (i.e. Kevin Moats), pop a few people so that there is some chance of being caught.

Shane
2014-11-27 9:28 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping

Originally posted by gsmacleod As far as cheating, this is, IMO an important aspect that sports should teach and value - if someone is willing to cheat to win at a triathlon, then that speaks volumes about their character and that they are likely willing to cheat in all aspects of their lives. Shane

Well said. 

Mark

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