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Age groupers and doping
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 2014-11-24 12:26 AM |
Veteran  559  |  Subject: Age groupers and dopingI was relaxing at home when I saw an article on the webpage of our local triathlon society that one of our top local female age groupers tested pos. for the steroids Clenbuterol and Phentermine. Really? Why would it be necessary for someone to do that at nearly 50 years of age to use stuff like that? I can still understand that Clenbuterol can find its way into fat burning supplements. It happens more often that you think The killer in this deal is Phentermine, its an appetite suppressant, that as I understand it works in the brain to suppress those hunger pangs. Very expensive drug and you will not find that in any off the shelf fat burner. I have always admired the athlete concerned, She was a great competitor, killer on the bike. Now I know why Banned for 2 years. My respect and respect of others. Lost Guess there will be a S-Works with deep section Zipps on the market fairly soon. I love to compete, its a good feeling to win. Sure as hell not worth that price though. |
| 2014-11-24 6:25 AM in reply to: kocourek |
Master 8247     Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Does not surprise me--I'd guess it's more common than most suspect, particularly among older age groupers at the pointy end of things. A friend and I were talking about this recently--men can claim low T as a medical condition and sometimes get away with supplementation that may not be needed for medical reasons, but what do women do? We decided we just get old, and work harder for fewer results! But maybe this is what some of them do.....fortunately she got caught. As a young athlete and now as an AG competitor, I've had my suspicions from time to time, particularly when someone comes out of total obscurity, has a few amazing races, then you never see results again, but performance and talent are complex matters, and I guess it's always innocent until proven guilty. Just sad how some people get carried away-- in my mind the whole point of endurance sports is to be a healthy lifelong passion. |
| 2014-11-24 6:55 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by Hot Runner Does not surprise me--I'd guess it's more common than most suspect, particularly among older age groupers at the pointy end of things. A friend and I were talking about this recently--men can claim low T as a medical condition and sometimes get away with supplementation that may not be needed for medical reasons, but what do women do? We decided we just get old, and work harder for fewer results! But maybe this is what some of them do.....fortunately she got caught. As a young athlete and now as an AG competitor, I've had my suspicions from time to time, particularly when someone comes out of total obscurity, has a few amazing races, then you never see results again, but performance and talent are complex matters, and I guess it's always innocent until proven guilty. Just sad how some people get carried away-- in my mind the whole point of endurance sports is to be a healthy lifelong passion. While they very well may get away with it, due to the fact that testing is incredibly rare for age groupers, that doesn't mean that they are competing legally. While AGers can get a retroactive therapeutic use exemption (TUE) for many things (unlike elites who need a TUE in place in order to compete legally), one thing they need a TUE in place for prior to competing is testosterone. Further, an athlete would need to have essentially no T in order to successful obtain a TUE and compete legally. While there are at least some AGers who are taking T, often prescribed by an anti-aging doc, there are few who are doing so within the rules of the sport. Shane |
| 2014-11-24 8:23 AM in reply to: kocourek |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by kocourek I was relaxing at home when I saw an article on the webpage of our local triathlon society that one of our top local female age groupers tested pos. for the steroids Clenbuterol and Phentermine. Really? Why would it be necessary for someone to do that at nearly 50 years of age to use stuff like that? I can still understand that Clenbuterol can find its way into fat burning supplements. It happens more often that you think The killer in this deal is Phentermine, its an appetite suppressant, that as I understand it works in the brain to suppress those hunger pangs. Very expensive drug and you will not find that in any off the shelf fat burner. I have always admired the athlete concerned, She was a great competitor, killer on the bike. Now I know why Banned for 2 years. My respect and respect of others. Lost Guess there will be a S-Works with deep section Zipps on the market fairly soon. I love to compete, its a good feeling to win. Sure as hell not worth that price though. In Germany they are talking about laws that would make it criminal to dope. For both foreigners and locals. Fail a drug test and you can go to prison. That should be interesting if it passes. I love the Germans for this kind of stuff. No mucking around. There have been studies that show a significant number of people do dope. Strange but true. |
| 2014-11-24 8:51 AM in reply to: kocourek |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping it happens. i'm almost 100% positive a cycling friend of mine knowingly dopes, not EPO, T, or steroids, but other over the counter products that are banned and when combined give you a pretty big edge. he once offered me ephedrine before a training ride... pass. some people will do anything i guess. |
| 2014-11-24 8:53 AM in reply to: marcag |
| 754 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping I didn't realize that clenbuterol was used for fat burning. It is a bronchiodialator and used to treat asthma and other respiratory problems. If someone is doping with it, that is probably why (much like Contador's albuterol). Open up the lungs and get more air into the body. Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me that people would cheat at any level. I am surprised that people are being tested at local races, though. |
| 2014-11-24 8:53 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by kocourek I was relaxing at home when I saw an article on the webpage of our local triathlon society that one of our top local female age groupers tested pos. for the steroids Clenbuterol and Phentermine. Really? Why would it be necessary for someone to do that at nearly 50 years of age to use stuff like that? I can still understand that Clenbuterol can find its way into fat burning supplements. It happens more often that you think The killer in this deal is Phentermine, its an appetite suppressant, that as I understand it works in the brain to suppress those hunger pangs. Very expensive drug and you will not find that in any off the shelf fat burner. I have always admired the athlete concerned, She was a great competitor, killer on the bike. Now I know why Banned for 2 years. My respect and respect of others. Lost Guess there will be a S-Works with deep section Zipps on the market fairly soon. I love to compete, its a good feeling to win. Sure as hell not worth that price though. In Germany they are talking about laws that would make it criminal to dope. For both foreigners and locals. Fail a drug test and you can go to prison. That should be interesting if it passes. I love the Germans for this kind of stuff. No mucking around. There have been studies that show a significant number of people do dope. Strange but true. that's interesting. doping in sports is more like a rule violation than illegal activity. it's cheating, not criminal activity; that same reasoning could be extrapolated to require community service for course cutting or wearing headphones in the local 5k. Edited by Clempson 2014-11-24 8:53 AM |
| 2014-11-24 8:56 AM in reply to: Clempson |
| 11 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping It's a bastard when you have genuinely.. cleanly been trying to qualify for some years & you just know others are banging in the crap... |
| 2014-11-24 9:12 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping From the press release on the Triathlon SA webite, it sounds like it is this person's third offense. If so, why only a two year ban? My first reaction would be to impose a lifetime ban from any WADA sport (triathlon, swimming, track & field, etc.). Then again, cheaters don't expect to get caught, so maybe even a lifetime ban wouldn't be enough of a deterent. But maybe it would at least help make the playing field a bit more level for honest athletes. Mark
Edited by RedCorvette 2014-11-24 9:17 AM |
| 2014-11-24 9:17 AM in reply to: Clempson |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by Clempson Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by kocourek I was relaxing at home when I saw an article on the webpage of our local triathlon society that one of our top local female age groupers tested pos. for the steroids Clenbuterol and Phentermine. Really? Why would it be necessary for someone to do that at nearly 50 years of age to use stuff like that? I can still understand that Clenbuterol can find its way into fat burning supplements. It happens more often that you think The killer in this deal is Phentermine, its an appetite suppressant, that as I understand it works in the brain to suppress those hunger pangs. Very expensive drug and you will not find that in any off the shelf fat burner. I have always admired the athlete concerned, She was a great competitor, killer on the bike. Now I know why Banned for 2 years. My respect and respect of others. Lost Guess there will be a S-Works with deep section Zipps on the market fairly soon. I love to compete, its a good feeling to win. Sure as hell not worth that price though. In Germany they are talking about laws that would make it criminal to dope. For both foreigners and locals. Fail a drug test and you can go to prison. That should be interesting if it passes. I love the Germans for this kind of stuff. No mucking around. There have been studies that show a significant number of people do dope. Strange but true. that's interesting. doping in sports is more like a rule violation than illegal activity. it's cheating, not criminal activity; that same reasoning could be extrapolated to require community service for course cutting or wearing headphones in the local 5k. I figure drafting in a tri should be worth at least 30 days in the county jail... Mark |
| 2014-11-24 9:19 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping I think AG doping for performance enhancement is one of the strangest, goofiest, most ridiculous things I can think of. BUT.....until USAT (and other governing bodies) actually care, and I don't know what the motivation to care might be.......it is here to stay. I think USAT is a fantastic organization.....but I don't see any evidence that they care about AG'ers doping. Then again, I don't really see any reason why they would. |
| 2014-11-24 9:31 AM in reply to: 0 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping It's amazing to me that AG'ers dope, since most of us do this to be healthy and stay in shape. The races give us motivation to continue. Then some are doping which ultimately compromises their health WTF. Can't fix stupid Edited by mike761 2014-11-24 9:32 AM |
| 2014-11-24 10:26 AM in reply to: mike761 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by mike761 It's amazing to me that AG'ers dope, since most of us do this to be healthy and stay in shape. The races give us motivation to continue. Then some are doping which ultimately compromises their health WTF. Can't fix stupid Agree. At age 61 and having faced a number of health issues during my life, I can't imagine putting something in my body that might risk my health. Especially since I could dope to the gills and still not get to the FOP on a regular basis. Best things that have worked for me are learning to train more consistently and aging up with correspondingly smaller fields. Mark |
| 2014-11-24 10:43 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Expert 2098 Ontario Canada | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping I am sure it goes on especially in the slightly advancing age groups, I could never understand it myself to me you are just cheating yourself because you are not really performing how you should be because of the enhancement of the drugs. People need to learn to deal with what you have and how to train to use what you do have as best as you can. I have never really understood the need to need to be a top competitor, sure I like to do well in my AG but I don't have an unending desire to podium at any cost and if I finish dead last then so be it I won't be happy about it but I am not going to start doping to try and improve, if I am performing as well or better then the last time out the then great if not , then If I gave it my best shot and wasn't holding anything back then I don't have any thing to complain about I went out did what I could and finished up as best as I could.. |
| 2014-11-24 11:04 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by Clempson Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by kocourek I was relaxing at home when I saw an article on the webpage of our local triathlon society that one of our top local female age groupers tested pos. for the steroids Clenbuterol and Phentermine. Really? Why would it be necessary for someone to do that at nearly 50 years of age to use stuff like that? I can still understand that Clenbuterol can find its way into fat burning supplements. It happens more often that you think The killer in this deal is Phentermine, its an appetite suppressant, that as I understand it works in the brain to suppress those hunger pangs. Very expensive drug and you will not find that in any off the shelf fat burner. I have always admired the athlete concerned, She was a great competitor, killer on the bike. Now I know why Banned for 2 years. My respect and respect of others. Lost Guess there will be a S-Works with deep section Zipps on the market fairly soon. I love to compete, its a good feeling to win. Sure as hell not worth that price though. In Germany they are talking about laws that would make it criminal to dope. For both foreigners and locals. Fail a drug test and you can go to prison. That should be interesting if it passes. I love the Germans for this kind of stuff. No mucking around. There have been studies that show a significant number of people do dope. Strange but true. that's interesting. doping in sports is more like a rule violation than illegal activity. it's cheating, not criminal activity; that same reasoning could be extrapolated to require community service for course cutting or wearing headphones in the local 5k. If it passes it will be interesting to see how they enforce it and if it changes the way people behave. They don't even need to police it. Just knowing you could go to jail/be fined if WADA tests you may be enough to have people stop. A pro who dopes may think twice about racing in Germany. Legal consequences of someone doping may be a deterrent and part of the solution. I know a lot of people poopoo the cleaner protocol stuff but they have some interesting concepts in there. Maybe some of them can be applied. Edited by marcag 2014-11-24 11:13 AM |
| 2014-11-24 11:37 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Hot Runner Does not surprise me--I'd guess it's more common than most suspect, particularly among older age groupers at the pointy end of things. A friend and I were talking about this recently--men can claim low T as a medical condition and sometimes get away with supplementation that may not be needed for medical reasons, but what do women do? We decided we just get old, and work harder for fewer results! But maybe this is what some of them do.....fortunately she got caught. As a young athlete and now as an AG competitor, I've had my suspicions from time to time, particularly when someone comes out of total obscurity, has a few amazing races, then you never see results again, but performance and talent are complex matters, and I guess it's always innocent until proven guilty. Just sad how some people get carried away-- in my mind the whole point of endurance sports is to be a healthy lifelong passion. While they very well may get away with it, due to the fact that testing is incredibly rare for age groupers, that doesn't mean that they are competing legally. While AGers can get a retroactive therapeutic use exemption (TUE) for many things (unlike elites who need a TUE in place in order to compete legally), one thing they need a TUE in place for prior to competing is testosterone. Further, an athlete would need to have essentially no T in order to successful obtain a TUE and compete legally. While there are at least some AGers who are taking T, often prescribed by an anti-aging doc, there are few who are doing so within the rules of the sport. Shane Bingo. The percentage of T-usage in the male AG ranks is probably double or triple what anyone thinks it is and even higher at the pointy end of the M35+ AG ranks. I'd be willing to bet 1/3 to 1/2 of the top 10% of each AG from M35-39 and above would fail a random drug test if administered.... perhaps higher. The Low-T bull$hit is out of control. Edited by GMAN 19030 2014-11-24 11:50 AM |
| 2014-11-24 11:47 AM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping i've been told from a pretty good source that the USAT internal estimate of men doping with T is ~30% of the male participants who are 40+. that is why there will never be any widespread testing; why remove 30% of your largest customer base? |
| 2014-11-24 11:49 AM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Hot Runner Does not surprise me--I'd guess it's more common than most suspect, particularly among older age groupers at the pointy end of things. A friend and I were talking about this recently--men can claim low T as a medical condition and sometimes get away with supplementation that may not be needed for medical reasons, but what do women do? We decided we just get old, and work harder for fewer results! But maybe this is what some of them do.....fortunately she got caught. As a young athlete and now as an AG competitor, I've had my suspicions from time to time, particularly when someone comes out of total obscurity, has a few amazing races, then you never see results again, but performance and talent are complex matters, and I guess it's always innocent until proven guilty. Just sad how some people get carried away-- in my mind the whole point of endurance sports is to be a healthy lifelong passion. While they very well may get away with it, due to the fact that testing is incredibly rare for age groupers, that doesn't mean that they are competing legally. While AGers can get a retroactive therapeutic use exemption (TUE) for many things (unlike elites who need a TUE in place in order to compete legally), one thing they need a TUE in place for prior to competing is testosterone. Further, an athlete would need to have essentially no T in order to successful obtain a TUE and compete legally. While there are at least some AGers who are taking T, often prescribed by an anti-aging doc, there are few who are doing so within the rules of the sport. Shane Bingo. The percentage of T-usage in the male AG ranks is probably double or triple what anyone thinks it is and even higher at the pointy end of the M35+ AG ranks. I'd be willing to bet 1/3 of the top 10% of each AG from M35-39 and above would fail a random drug test if administered.... perhaps higher. The Low-T bull$hit is out of control. Quick......name a single AG champion above the age of 35 in the last AG world championship. Nobody cares. I have no idea why anyone in the AG ranks would use potentially dangerous (long term health) performance enhancing drugs to improve a performance nobody cares about. That's about as silly as it gets. |
| 2014-11-24 11:59 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by Left Brain Quick......name a single AG champion above the age of 35 in the last AG world championship. Nobody cares. I have no idea why anyone in the AG ranks would use potentially dangerous (long term health) performance enhancing drugs to improve a performance nobody cares about. That's about as silly as it gets. I get that but the 60-70% of us not cheating would like a level playing field. If I'm getting my butt kicked by someone I would like the reasons to be they're physically more talented than I am and/or worked harder than me. I don't want it to be because they have loose ethics and morals and decide to cheat at amateur racing for whatever vain reason they're doing it. I'm with you. I get cheating at the professional ranks in any sport. Don't condone it but I get it. Money, fame, glory, and all that is a powerful incentive. Cheating to podium the M45-49 AG at the Local Yocal Triathlon is just absurd. |
| 2014-11-24 12:17 PM in reply to: 0 |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by Clempson i've been told from a pretty good source that the USAT internal estimate of men doping with T is ~30% of the male participants who are 40+. that is why there will never be any widespread testing; why remove 30% of your largest customer base? Exactly my thoughts. They (USAT) would be biting the hand that feeds them should they decide to test more AGers. On other forums, the general consensus is that it's (dopting) way more prevalent than you'd think. It's pretty sad. I have to work my tail off to get results. Edited by d00d 2014-11-24 12:20 PM |
| 2014-11-24 12:18 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Originally posted by Left Brain Quick......name a single AG champion above the age of 35 in the last AG world championship. Nobody cares. I have no idea why anyone in the AG ranks would use potentially dangerous (long term health) performance enhancing drugs to improve a performance nobody cares about. That's about as silly as it gets. I get that but the 60-70% of us not cheating would like a level playing field. If I'm getting my butt kicked by someone I would like the reasons to be they're physically more talented than I am and/or worked harder than me. I don't want it to be because they have loose ethics and morals and decide to cheat at amateur racing for whatever vain reason they're doing it. I'm with you. I get cheating at the professional ranks in any sport. Don't condone it but I get it. Money, fame, glory, and all that is a powerful incentive. Cheating to podium the M45-49 AG at the Local Yocal Triathlon is just absurd. Gman, you're at the pointier end of the field, in contention for a WC spot. Do you care ? Not do you lose sleep over it, but do you care ? |
| 2014-11-24 12:18 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Originally posted by Left Brain Quick......name a single AG champion above the age of 35 in the last AG world championship. Nobody cares. I have no idea why anyone in the AG ranks would use potentially dangerous (long term health) performance enhancing drugs to improve a performance nobody cares about. That's about as silly as it gets. I get that but the 60-70% of us not cheating would like a level playing field. If I'm getting my butt kicked by someone I would like the reasons to be they're physically more talented than I am and/or worked harder than me. I don't want it to be because they have loose ethics and morals and decide to cheat at amateur racing for whatever vain reason they're doing it. I'm with you. I get cheating at the professional ranks in any sport. Don't condone it but I get it. Money, fame, glory, and all that is a powerful incentive. Cheating to podium the M45-49 AG at the Local Yocal Triathlon is just absurd. Oh, I get your point as well, and I agree. The problem is, USAT does not care about doping in the AG ranks......they probably can't afford to care. |
(again, in no way is that comment a slap at USAT....I can't figure out why they would care either and they do a great job with their races, athlete development, customer service, etc.)| 2014-11-24 12:20 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 160 | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping My goal being to be as healthy as possible, I would definitively not touch that. My guess is her goals were completely different and don't correspond most of posters here. Body shaping, podium... With that said, are triathlon open to people on medications? Do they get exemptions, get automatically disqualification, are prevented from entering? Or does it depend on which triathlon you compete in. I kind of assume they apply rules much more diligently to people with high potential then to recreational triathletes. Edited by Antoine tri 2014-11-24 12:24 PM |
| 2014-11-24 12:21 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Originally posted by Left Brain Quick......name a single AG champion above the age of 35 in the last AG world championship. Nobody cares. I have no idea why anyone in the AG ranks would use potentially dangerous (long term health) performance enhancing drugs to improve a performance nobody cares about. That's about as silly as it gets. I get that but the 60-70% of us not cheating would like a level playing field. If I'm getting my butt kicked by someone I would like the reasons to be they're physically more talented than I am and/or worked harder than me. I don't want it to be because they have loose ethics and morals and decide to cheat at amateur racing for whatever vain reason they're doing it. I'm with you. I get cheating at the professional ranks in any sport. Don't condone it but I get it. Money, fame, glory, and all that is a powerful incentive. Cheating to podium the M45-49 AG at the Local Yocal Triathlon is just absurd. If there was a desire to dope in the AG ranks than I would be the one that should feel that pressure. As I usually place 4th or 5th in sprints and Olympics(45-49). Yet I have absolutely no desire to go that route. I do wonder after most events if the 3 or 4 guys ahead of me were clean or not. I know people who have doped(they told me), I've seen people cut coarses, I just don't get it. |
| 2014-11-24 12:35 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Age groupers and doping Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Gman, you're at the pointier end of the field, in contention for a WC spot. Do you care ? Not do you lose sleep over it, but do you care ? Originally posted by Left Brain Quick......name a single AG champion above the age of 35 in the last AG world championship. Nobody cares. I have no idea why anyone in the AG ranks would use potentially dangerous (long term health) performance enhancing drugs to improve a performance nobody cares about. That's about as silly as it gets. I get that but the 60-70% of us not cheating would like a level playing field. If I'm getting my butt kicked by someone I would like the reasons to be they're physically more talented than I am and/or worked harder than me. I don't want it to be because they have loose ethics and morals and decide to cheat at amateur racing for whatever vain reason they're doing it. I'm with you. I get cheating at the professional ranks in any sport. Don't condone it but I get it. Money, fame, glory, and all that is a powerful incentive. Cheating to podium the M45-49 AG at the Local Yocal Triathlon is just absurd. I'm a roll down slot at best at this stage of the game but a 70.3 slot is not completely out of the question for me if the stars aligned. So I do care to some degree. In my Utopian world we would all be racing clean but I'm a pragmatist so I get the reality. If I ended up a few spots out of contention I'd wonder about some of the guys ahead of me, especially knowing that odds are 1/3 or more of them were jacked up on T. I wouldn't lose sleep over it but I'd be irked. Edited by GMAN 19030 2014-11-24 12:36 PM |
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