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2014-12-12 1:53 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running.  The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times.  Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts?  Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? 

First, you have to have talent (genetics) to achieve those kinds of times.  I'm sure there are some adults who could thrive by training in a similar fashio to what you see.  But that is a small subset of adult triathletes who have a real desire to be long-term competitive and willing to commit to a dedicated swimming program for several years in order to get there.  And have a lot of time to commit to training to begin with.  It's just not the profile of many AG triathletes, so a small subset.  And, for many of them, there are also usually other ways to get to their goals.

Sure....I understand that and I agree.  But the goal is always improvement in times (at least for those doing triathlon as something more than a bucket item)....so I'm trying to look at another way other than what is normally prescribed in light of the fact that most people who do triathlon are abysmal swimmers compared to people who have fast triathlons.  I can tell you that I am amazed at what I see......because it does go against what I had seen, and thought I knew, about training for triathlons over the past 30 years since I first did a triathlon.  You could not have convinced me that a swim based training regimen would be as successful as I've watched it be......and was pretty resistant when I was pushed that way with my kid.....but the results, and not just with him but others doing the same work, have been pretty startling.

For anyone really serious about being the best they can be at triathlons, they have to commit to swimming a fair amount.  I don't think 60/40 is an appropriate mix for that goal, but it is probably not the 15/85 that many people follow either.  But what you call "normally prescribed" does not align with what I'd call "good advice" for type of athlete you appear to want to address.  And that good advice is out there.  On BT, too.



2014-12-12 2:04 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
my short time on this site as show me that whatever advice JohnnyKay gives is pretty much spot on/and good to read.

Ball park number for elite/pro at world class level

Short 30-35% weekly volume is swimming
Long distance 15-20% weekly volume

of course....it varies but those are realistic figures.

Swim fitness is important but the transfer to bike and run is relatively poor. Specificity is a good rule to go by......
2014-12-12 2:12 PM
in reply to: jonnyo

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by jonnyo

my short time on this site as show me that whatever advice JohnnyKay gives is pretty much spot on/and good to read.

Ball park number for elite/pro at world class level

Short 30-35% weekly volume is swimming
Long distance 15-20% weekly volume

of course....it varies but those are realistic figures.

Swim fitness is important but the transfer to bike and run is relatively poor. Specificity is a good rule to go by......


what about AGers ? Say FOP
2014-12-12 2:31 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
just a tad lower in short course because of the non drafting rule and relative non importance of the swim

perhaps 25%

long distance.... would be similar.

once again.,...ball park numbers from various elite programs/squads etc. A weaker swimmer working on his swim will change those %
2014-12-12 2:43 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running.  The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times.  Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts?  Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? 

First, you have to have talent (genetics) to achieve those kinds of times.  I'm sure there are some adults who could thrive by training in a similar fashio to what you see.  But that is a small subset of adult triathletes who have a real desire to be long-term competitive and willing to commit to a dedicated swimming program for several years in order to get there.  And have a lot of time to commit to training to begin with.  It's just not the profile of many AG triathletes, so a small subset.  And, for many of them, there are also usually other ways to get to their goals.

Sure....I understand that and I agree.  But the goal is always improvement in times (at least for those doing triathlon as something more than a bucket item)....so I'm trying to look at another way other than what is normally prescribed in light of the fact that most people who do triathlon are abysmal swimmers compared to people who have fast triathlons.  I can tell you that I am amazed at what I see......because it does go against what I had seen, and thought I knew, about training for triathlons over the past 30 years since I first did a triathlon.  You could not have convinced me that a swim based training regimen would be as successful as I've watched it be......and was pretty resistant when I was pushed that way with my kid.....but the results, and not just with him but others doing the same work, have been pretty startling.

For anyone really serious about being the best they can be at triathlons, they have to commit to swimming a fair amount.  I don't think 60/40 is an appropriate mix for that goal, but it is probably not the 15/85 that many people follow either.  But what you call "normally prescribed" does not align with what I'd call "good advice" for type of athlete you appear to want to address.  And that good advice is out there.  On BT, too.

I think you misunderstood me.  What I would call "normally prescribed" is what I grew up in triathlon with.....what my kid and his peers do was really foreign to me.....but I became a believer when I saw that their runs ad bikes dropped as their swim times dropped....and they didn't increase run or bike mileage.  I have a hard time, after the amazing progress I have seen in them, believing that some toned down version of what they do can't be applied to most AG'ers too.  But yeah.....you'd have to be able to spend quite a bit of time in the pool so maybe that's the limiter for most people.

2014-12-12 3:09 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Honestly LB, the reason your son is a fast runner on low mileage is talent, and mostly talent. Sure, he busts tail to get even faster, but he would be a low 18:xx 5k runner even doing totally haphazard random training on <20mpw, as do quite a number of talented HS runners. 

 

If it were just 'go fast in training on low volume', EVERYBODY would be running sub19 5ks easily. Alas, <1% even get to sub 18.  

 

Similarly, there talented kid swimmers who could dust your kid in swimming despite swimming only a fraction of what your kid swims in training.

 

I would look at your son a lot less as the example of what everybody should be doing, and more of the exceptional case of what someone can do when blessed with a lot of run-specific natural ability. 



2014-12-12 3:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by yazmaster

Honestly LB, the reason your son is a fast runner on low mileage is talent, and mostly talent. Sure, he busts tail to get even faster, but he would be a low 18:xx 5k runner even doing totally haphazard random training on <20mpw, as do quite a number of talented HS runners. 

 

If it were just 'go fast in training on low volume', EVERYBODY would be running sub19 5ks easily. Alas, <1% even get to sub 18.  

 

Similarly, there talented kid swimmers who could dust your kid in swimming despite swimming only a fraction of what your kid swims in training.

 

I would look at your son a lot less as the example of what everybody should be doing, and more of the exceptional case of what someone can do when blessed with a lot of run-specific natural ability. 

I'm not sure about that.  I hear what you are saying, but his team has 100's of kids.....only a few of them are at his level, but they all train the same...and they are all getting faster.

And no....I know quite a bit about kid swimmers now after being involved for the last few years as USA swim official....I get to see some really fast kids and spend quite a bit of time talking about their methods with parents, coaches, and other officials .....the ones dusting my kid are not swimming less...believe it.  His club has kids from rec league, to high school, to Sectional qualifiers, to Jr. National qualifiers, to Olympic trials qualifiers.  I know what the top two levels swim to get there.....it's not less, it's crazy.

What there is a shortage of is kids who can swim well and run well......or maybe there is just a shortage of kids who want to.  Butt there are a couple of really fast swimmers on his club who tear up the dryland track work pretty good (5:30 - 6:00 minute mile range)......on NO run training. 

BUT.....I'll tell you what there are NONE of....really fast runners on his XC and track teams who can tear up the pool with NO swim training.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-12 3:25 PM
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