General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Hard days/easy days Rss Feed  
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2014-12-11 9:15 AM


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: Hard days/easy days
Im just wondering how everyone else sets up their training weeks. I read a lot about always alternate hard days with easy days and that hard workouts take about 36-48 hrs to recover from. My question is what do you consider hard days? And do you subscribe to the "never do two hard days in a row? This would only allow 1 hard workout per week for each discipline. And how do you ever recover if it takes 48 hrs but your training almost every day? And some say to make sure your easy workouts should be extremely easy and your hard workouts very hard. No in between. Do you agree? And one of my main questions is, is there a line you cross that's TOO easy? For example, if I run a 6:15 pace for a 5k, is a 10:00 pace TOO easy for my easy runs? I had a coach for an ironman I did in May and there were a lot of times I did back to back hard days. So I'm just wondering everyone's opinion on this. Thanks!


2014-12-11 10:27 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Get hold of one of the training plans on the site and those answers become clear

2014-12-11 10:51 AM
in reply to: DanielG


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Nice
2014-12-11 1:00 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Originally posted by mchadcota2

Im just wondering how everyone else sets up their training weeks. I read a lot about always alternate hard days with easy days and that hard workouts take about 36-48 hrs to recover from. My question is what do you consider hard days? And do you subscribe to the "never do two hard days in a row? This would only allow 1 hard workout per week for each discipline. And how do you ever recover if it takes 48 hrs but your training almost every day? And some say to make sure your easy workouts should be extremely easy and your hard workouts very hard. No in between. Do you agree? And one of my main questions is, is there a line you cross that's TOO easy? For example, if I run a 6:15 pace for a 5k, is a 10:00 pace TOO easy for my easy runs? I had a coach for an ironman I did in May and there were a lot of times I did back to back hard days. So I'm just wondering everyone's opinion on this. Thanks!


Everyone responds to training loads differently, it is up to the athlete and coach (if applicable) to find the best possible management of volume and intensity. Follow the guidelines to guide you along to see what works for you. Hours between workouts is not as important as nights of sleep, because that is where the majority of your recovery happens.

Craig Alexander runs 6:15 pace in an IM, he usually runs his easy runs at 9-9:30 pace, he has posted some of his easy days online, maybe that can give you some reference to how easy some people go. Easy is easy, stupid easy. If you fade in the end of a swim you either swam the warmup too hard or you didn't pace well in the main set. There is no such thing as too easy, too many triathletes go to hard on easy days and not hard enough on hard days. What is a hard day? A hard day is being able to get the prescribed work done without fatiguing, at least in a general sense. Hard is a very relative word so now clear metrics can be given, especially as you train across the spectrum from a 5k to an Ironman, both have very different meanings of "hard", and many athletes perceive hard to be different in a variety of ways.
2014-12-11 4:21 PM
in reply to: bcagle25


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
That's helpful. Thanks. I'm just trying to create a more productive training plan. I've been racing for about 4 years and made good progress for the first couple of years then things just stagnated. So then I started wondering about things like "am I overtraining, not doing the right types of workouts" etc. Another question is how often do you test your progress? One thing I've done in the past is doing a certain type of bike workout once each week and trying to beat the week before. Is that sensible or how do you guys test your progress to know if your training is working?
2014-12-11 4:56 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Just wanted to add a little info. I've done three HIM over the last 4 years and did an IM this past May. I finished the summer off doing a couple of sprints. I have mostly focused on sprints through the years. I average around 4 hrs or so per week when training for sprints. After this past summer I decided my body needed a break from it for awhile so I took a couple weeks completely off and then did very little training for a few months. Now that Ive started back and am trying to get more structured and serious, I am starting off slow. So, ironman in May, and now I'm starting my training back at about 3 hrs/week. 30-45 min bike rides, 25-50 min runs. Question is, with this extremely low volume, should I even be concerned about how often to do hard workouts? Is that "mostly easy/sometimes hard" philosophy more for athletes with high volume (10-20 hrs/wk)? Or would that apply to everyone regardless of volume?


2014-12-11 5:00 PM
in reply to: #5073900

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Extreme Veteran
1986
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Cypress, TX
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Look up Polarized Training. There's a couple of good threads on ST. Joe Friel has a couple of good Blog posts on his website as well.
2014-12-11 5:35 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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928
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Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
As you're rebuilding volume, you should focus on that-- any hard workouts you do will just serve to reduce your volume.

Once you're back up to a more decent training volume, you can think about alternating hard and easy. But when you do, don't use the 36-48 hours as a rule-- there's way more to it that that (including your own personal recovery pattern, how much sleep you get, HOW hard the workout is, the nature of your activities between workouts, etc).
2014-12-11 5:40 PM
in reply to: #5074048


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
I've read so much about it but never get much out of it. I'm looking for real experiences and concrete examples rather than theory.
2014-12-11 5:41 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Regular
606
500100
Portland, Oregon
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Originally posted by mchadcota2

I've read so much about it but never get much out of it. I'm looking for real experiences and concrete examples rather than theory.


http://www.canal-insep.fr/fr/training-periodization-deep-root-cultu...
Watch that. It has both.
2014-12-11 9:25 PM
in reply to: 0

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Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Originally posted by mchadcota2

I've read so much about it but never get much out of it. I'm looking for real experiences and concrete examples rather than theory.


All training models are concepts. Polarized is yet another one to choose from.

Many great examples of it working. I believe Helle Fredricksen uses it in her training, she just won $100K in Bahrain.

Talk to Mark Van Akkeren, he uses it with his athletes and has taken about 25+ athletes to Kona.

I am using it with a couple athletes right now as it fits their training needs perfectly. One had a 20+ minute PR at their last 70.3 in October.

Edited by bcagle25 2014-12-11 9:35 PM


2014-12-11 9:44 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days

A lot of this depends on the time of the year. If it's race season and you race most weekends or are doing quality workouts (i.e. long workouts) on the weekends, then you want to set up your week so that your hard Vo2/LT bike and run are both quality workouts and that you are rested for them. The way I set up a week like that in the race season is as follows:

Monday - recovery or easy swimTuesday - hard run, easy spin
Wednesday - long swim, easy bike
Thursday - Hard bike, run off bike
Friday - quality swim
Saturday - swim, long bike, run off bike
Sunday- long run, easy bike

This time of the year it might be different where you can focus more on quality and less on endurance:
Monday - recovery swim
Tuesday - VO2 bike, run off bike
Wednesday - swim, strength
Thursday - LT Bike, LT Run
Friday - swim, strength
Bike - tempo effort, run off bike
Sunday - longer run, with tempo finish

I've had success with my athletes using something like that. Everyone is different and you can definitely get in 2-3 solid bikes per week, 1 good hard LT run, and 2 hard swims per week. If something crushes you so much that you miss the next day, then you either went too hard or you weren't ready for 2 hard workouts for that sport.

2014-12-12 9:30 AM
in reply to: mikericci


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Thanks a lot! That's helpful. My problem is, and I feel like I'm the only one who has this problem, is I can't really judge how much I've recovered. For example, you said, "if you went so hard that you missed the next day" then you probably went too hard. That would never happen to me. I could do something extremely hard one day, and if I plan to do something the next day, I do it. Now of course I might be able to tell when I'm out running that my legs are a little tired, but I just take that as part of training. How do you know when you are fully recovered? Do you just wake up one morning and realize, "Ok, looks I am finally 100% recovered, I can now do my workout." I've never understood the people who talk about how many hours it usually takes them to recover.
2014-12-12 9:38 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Not a Coach
11473
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Media, PA
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days

Can you hit your next hard workout at the level you expected?  Do pace or power fall off?  If this happens a couple times in a row, you are not getting enough recovery.  If you can continue hitting the same paces/power and, gradually, see some improvements, then you are probably getting enpough recovery.  When training, you are never "fully" recovered.  You are always carrying some level of fatigue.  The challenge is to manage it appropriately.

2014-12-12 10:14 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
Unfortunately I don't train with power but I'm hoping to fork out the $$$ and do it soon. As far as pace goes, I don't do enough of the same exact workouts to be able to gauge progress. If I go out and do some intervals and I can't do what I hoped I could, I usually just chalk it up to "oh just an off day" or maybe I didn't get great sleep last couple of nights. But I never think, "ok I need to change my workout plan up because I'm not recovering properly. Thanks for all of the info. If I happen to get a power meter in the future I'm hoping that will really help me gauge my performances day in and day out. Do any of you guys do a test every week or so using power to gauge your improvement?
2014-12-12 10:40 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days

You don't need to do the exact same workout to gauge progress (although that can sometimes be helpful in doing so).  An "off day" is always possible and could be caused by any number of things.  A few off days in a row indicates an issue that should be addressed.



2014-12-12 11:07 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days

Originally posted by mchadcota2 Thanks a lot! That's helpful. My problem is, and I feel like I'm the only one who has this problem, is I can't really judge how much I've recovered. For example, you said, "if you went so hard that you missed the next day" then you probably went too hard. That would never happen to me. I could do something extremely hard one day, and if I plan to do something the next day, I do it. Now of course I might be able to tell when I'm out running that my legs are a little tired, but I just take that as part of training. How do you know when you are fully recovered? Do you just wake up one morning and realize, "Ok, looks I am finally 100% recovered, I can now do my workout." I've never understood the people who talk about how many hours it usually takes them to recover.

Do you use a HRM? You could take HR day to day when you wake up. After a few weeks you'll see a pattern. That's one way to know recovery.

2014-12-12 11:10 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days

An easy fix for this is running an hour or any amount of time, really, and do the same run each week and see what the pace/HR is comparably each week.

If you've run a 5k or 10k, or even a 30' test you should have an idea of what interval paces should be.

2014-12-12 4:15 PM
in reply to: #5073900


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days
All great advice! I really appreciate it. I need yall to talk me into a power meter. I really want to get a wahoo kickr. I would think it's definitely worth the investment. Of course it's my wife, not me, that needs convincing.
2014-12-12 5:35 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Hard days/easy days

Do you want me to call your wife? I've had to that before. ;-)

Power meter - easiest way to get better at cycling if you can follow the workouts and execute a plan day to day, week to week. And it's the best way to measure improvement over time.

Get your paces / HR dialed in and you'll be off to the races for the off-season. It will be easy to measure improvement and if you can run/ride in the HR zones, you'll really like the results.

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General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Hard days/easy days Rss Feed