General Discussion Triathlon Talk » How do you know if you are running too fast? Rss Feed  
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2014-12-15 3:53 PM

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Subject: How do you know if you are running too fast?
I have read much about the perils of speedwork; especially for those runners who maintain a low weekly mileage and/or who are masters runners. I don't specifically do repeats or interval training for my runs but I do try to run most of my mileage at a fast but sustainable tempo. If I can maintain the same rate throughout a 4 or 6 mile run (about 9 minutes per mile), do I still need to worry that I am overtraining and risking injury?


2014-12-15 6:16 PM
in reply to: #5074797

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Generally I compare to my race pace- for example my regular easy pace is about 2 min/mile slower than I could race a 10k.

If you are doing all of you running at a challenging page, that is likely about half-way between your 10k all-out pace and your easy pace. While you'll likely be able to handle your 25 miles per week or whatever without injury, you're also likely to plateau in speed. If you want to get faster its better to run mostly easy with a small amount at a faster harder pace. You'll likely see more progress than if you always run at that in-between pace.
2014-12-15 6:52 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Thanks. So since I run 3 days/week; usually 4 miles x 2 and one long run at 6 miles, should I be running one of the 4 milers at a faster pace (maybe 8.75-9 min per mile), the other 4 miler at 9.5 min per mile, and my longer run at 10 min per mile? Or something like that?
2014-12-15 7:43 PM
in reply to: Caroleena


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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?

No, not for you. If you've been running what you've been doing for awhile now, and aren't ramping up volume/speed dramatically, there is no reason for you to slow yourself down in run training to avoid injury.  

 

The speedwork people warn about are typically 10k or even 5k pace or faster. If you're running faster than 5k pace, you do have to be careful that you don't strain something. 

 

There is generally no need to artificially slow yourself down during your run training.If you do happen to be 'running too fast' for the plan, you need a plan that gives you more run/bike volume which will in itself slow your pace. 

2014-12-15 7:57 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Great, thanks. I was hoping someone would say that! Hoping to get a consensus with similar opinions
2014-12-16 5:39 AM
in reply to: Caroleena

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Originally posted by Caroleena

Thanks. So since I run 3 days/week; usually 4 miles x 2 and one long run at 6 miles, should I be running one of the 4 milers at a faster pace (maybe 8.75-9 min per mile), the other 4 miler at 9.5 min per mile, and my longer run at 10 min per mile? Or something like that?


We don't know how long you've been running, but my guess is it's been a while, so let's extrapolate that you have a decent base. From there it's safe to prescribe speed work. The real dangers of injury creep in when the body isn't adapted sufficiently enough to understand what the speed work accomplishes, whereas those with a decent base typically have less to worry about.

That said, if you're running around 9:00 mm, that's not really what most would consider fast. That might be around your tempo pace, but it isn't your sprint pace, or even 800m pace. As an example (not a back door brag, just purposes of illustration, if you knew me you'd know I have a lot of work to do!), my recovery pace is somewhere between 8:30-9:00, tempo around 7:30, speed work is anywhere between 5:40 and 6:20. There are a lot of points in between those obviously, but that's kind of my point...the difference between 8:45 and 9:00 isn't much of anything really, until you stretch it out over very long distances. If tempo is racing, speed work is being chased by the boogie man.


2014-12-16 6:27 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
I've been running about 3 years and yes, I would say 9 min miles would be my tempo run pace. I am 43 if that matters.

What pace would you suggest for intervals if I decided I did want to improve my speed a bit?
2014-12-16 7:09 AM
in reply to: Caroleena

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
A lot of folks are very happily using this to calculate paces:
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/
So for example if you're a 8:45mm 5K pace, that gives a 1 mile pace of 7:49, and an 800m pace of 7:00 (ie it actually give 3:30.8 for 800m, which is nearly the same as 7:00/1 mile) . For sprint paces (ie less than 600m), it would be even a little faster. From my experience it lines up pretty well, both in the pace and RPE scale. Worth trying out.

Do have a good look around for some good speed workouts though - by no means should you go out there and do 20 400m repeats, nor should you be doing this type of workout often, lest you are really are looking to get hurt.
2014-12-16 7:48 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?

I haven't looked closely enough here to see if the sprint work is best, but did want to suggest working into those kinds of speeds over time and being careful with it. I follow Daniels more so than McMillan, but there are some similarities. If really going for the sprint work, start with shorter and fewer intervals. Also going slower than than recommended at first. I started closer to what would be Speed paces here and worked up to the equivalent of Sprint over several weeks. Had to learn a few things about them. One is to still run very smooth or it defeats a major point of them. Another is to let my body adapt. Both to actually moving that fast again and the strain it puts. A few spots were much more sore the next day than I thought they would be the first few times. And from I follow, the recommended upper limit was only 5% of the weekly total. I forget what McMillan has. So for 20 miles a week, do less than a mile of this to start.

2014-12-16 8:27 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
great points. I experimented quite a bit and found that I can do as much as 10% of my weekly volume with speed work incorporated, but anything more and I'd start to feel bad things. In the beginning of working it in though, I did manage to overdo it, and in retrospect I think the 1:20 ratio is a good place to start.
The comment about form is key as well - I learned to run with better form at slower paces by teaching my body economy at faster paces. My tempo pace dropped dramatically when I started mixing speed work in.
2014-12-16 9:47 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?

Originally posted by brigby1

I haven't looked closely enough here to see if the sprint work is best, but did want to suggest working into those kinds of speeds over time and being careful with it. I follow Daniels more so than McMillan, but there are some similarities. If really going for the sprint work, start with shorter and fewer intervals. Also going slower than than recommended at first. I started closer to what would be Speed paces here and worked up to the equivalent of Sprint over several weeks. Had to learn a few things about them. One is to still run very smooth or it defeats a major point of them. Another is to let my body adapt. Both to actually moving that fast again and the strain it puts. A few spots were much more sore the next day than I thought they would be the first few times. And from I follow, the recommended upper limit was only 5% of the weekly total. I forget what McMillan has. So for 20 miles a week, do less than a mile of this to start.

I think that's a good starting point but would also add that, if you're not currently doing them, start adding in 5 or so strides at the end of your easy run. 



2014-12-16 9:53 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?

I've had pretty good luck using the McMillan charts based off my race pace results.  I run four days a week, with three at 'long' pace and one at 'tempo' (after warming up for a mile or so).  My 'speed work' consists mostly of running some 5K's and other running races early in the year leading up to tri season.

It took some time to psychologically adjust to the feeling of running slower, but over time I found my recovery was better and I've had fewer overuse injuries.

Mark

  

2014-12-16 10:03 AM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?

If you ask any of the authorities "how ez should my ez runs be" I'm pretty confident their reply would be "ez enough so as not to affect your quality runs". 

2014-12-16 10:11 AM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?

Originally posted by thebigb

Originally posted by brigby1

I haven't looked closely enough here to see if the sprint work is best, but did want to suggest working into those kinds of speeds over time and being careful with it. I follow Daniels more so than McMillan, but there are some similarities. If really going for the sprint work, start with shorter and fewer intervals. Also going slower than than recommended at first. I started closer to what would be Speed paces here and worked up to the equivalent of Sprint over several weeks. Had to learn a few things about them. One is to still run very smooth or it defeats a major point of them. Another is to let my body adapt. Both to actually moving that fast again and the strain it puts. A few spots were much more sore the next day than I thought they would be the first few times. And from I follow, the recommended upper limit was only 5% of the weekly total. I forget what McMillan has. So for 20 miles a week, do less than a mile of this to start.

I think that's a good starting point but would also add that, if you're not currently doing them, start adding in 5 or so strides at the end of your easy run. 

And drills before EVERY run.

2014-12-16 5:11 PM
in reply to: Caroleena

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Originally posted by Caroleena

I've been running about 3 years and yes, I would say 9 min miles would be my tempo run pace. I am 43 if that matters.

What pace would you suggest for intervals if I decided I did want to improve my speed a bit?


If you are doing all of your running at 9:00/mile, I would argue that is NOT your tempo pace.

Tempo pace is the pace that you could run an all-out time trial for an hour, so for you a bit slower than your 10K race pace. Typical tempo run workouts would be about 20 minutes at that pace (longer if one is doing higher mileage), or 2-3 tempo intervals of about 10 minutes each with short recovery. If you are doing all of your runs at that pace, that's obviously too fast-- but this just means that 9:00/mile is actually slower than your real tempo pace. It is likely that in-between pace I was talking about before-- too fast to be "easy" pace, too slow to be "tempo" pace.

If you want to do some "speed work" at this point, I would suggest either a true tempo run or tempo intervals. That is, slow down your easy runs to closer to 9:45/mile, and on one run/week do a tempo workout: 10 min easy, 20 min at tempo ("comfortably hard", which should be harder than your 9:00/mile pace now), 10 min easy. Or do 10 minutes easy, 2 x 10 min hard with 2 min easy recovery, 10 min easy.

Just to give you a comparison-- when I can race a 10K at 8:00/mile, my easy pace is about 10:00/mile (or 9:30/mile at the fastest). I do almost no running at 9:00/mile, but will do tempo runs at 8:00/mile and short speed work at a faster pace (closer to 7:30/mile).
2014-12-16 5:53 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by thebigb

Originally posted by brigby1

I haven't looked closely enough here to see if the sprint work is best, but did want to suggest working into those kinds of speeds over time and being careful with it. I follow Daniels more so than McMillan, but there are some similarities. If really going for the sprint work, start with shorter and fewer intervals. Also going slower than than recommended at first. I started closer to what would be Speed paces here and worked up to the equivalent of Sprint over several weeks. Had to learn a few things about them. One is to still run very smooth or it defeats a major point of them. Another is to let my body adapt. Both to actually moving that fast again and the strain it puts. A few spots were much more sore the next day than I thought they would be the first few times. And from I follow, the recommended upper limit was only 5% of the weekly total. I forget what McMillan has. So for 20 miles a week, do less than a mile of this to start.

I think that's a good starting point but would also add that, if you're not currently doing them, start adding in 5 or so strides at the end of your easy run. 

And drills before EVERY run.




Agreed. Drills before my runs helped me solve overstride issues, heel strike issues, and helped me address effective cadence/turnover when I got into more serious running. Daniels' Running Formula helped me fine tune my runs specifically since I am not a high mileage or long dist runner.


2014-12-16 5:57 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?

Originally posted by jennifer_runs
Originally posted by Caroleena I've been running about 3 years and yes, I would say 9 min miles would be my tempo run pace. I am 43 if that matters. What pace would you suggest for intervals if I decided I did want to improve my speed a bit?
If you are doing all of your running at 9:00/mile, I would argue that is NOT your tempo pace. Tempo pace is the pace that you could run an all-out time trial for an hour, so for you a bit slower than your 10K race pace. Typical tempo run workouts would be about 20 minutes at that pace (longer if one is doing higher mileage), or 2-3 tempo intervals of about 10 minutes each with short recovery. If you are doing all of your runs at that pace, that's obviously too fast-- but this just means that 9:00/mile is actually slower than your real tempo pace. It is likely that in-between pace I was talking about before-- too fast to be "easy" pace, too slow to be "tempo" pace. If you want to do some "speed work" at this point, I would suggest either a true tempo run or tempo intervals. That is, slow down your easy runs to closer to 9:45/mile, and on one run/week do a tempo workout: 10 min easy, 20 min at tempo ("comfortably hard", which should be harder than your 9:00/mile pace now), 10 min easy. Or do 10 minutes easy, 2 x 10 min hard with 2 min easy recovery, 10 min easy. Just to give you a comparison-- when I can race a 10K at 8:00/mile, my easy pace is about 10:00/mile (or 9:30/mile at the fastest). I do almost no running at 9:00/mile, but will do tempo runs at 8:00/mile and short speed work at a faster pace (closer to 7:30/mile).

This is the problem with the word "tempo", everyone defines it differently. IMO, what you are describing is more akin threshold pace. Tempo pace usually resides somewhere between half marathon pace to marathon pace, and the pacing is dependent upon the length of the tempo. Longer tempo runs (up to an hour) are usually ran nearer marathon pace and shorter tempo work sees that pace drop. Granted, Daniels would argue with me that tempo pace is threshold but Malmo, Canova, etc would define two different ranges for each term. Matter of fact, Malmo had a lot of his runners doing long tempos up to and over an hour and less than true LT. 

2014-12-16 7:10 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Originally posted by fisherman76

A lot of folks are very happily using this to calculate paces:
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/
So for example if you're a 8:45mm 5K pace, that gives a 1 mile pace of 7:49, and an 800m pace of 7:00 (ie it actually give 3:30.8 for 800m, which is nearly the same as 7:00/1 mile) . For sprint paces (ie less than 600m), it would be even a little faster. From my experience it lines up pretty well, both in the pace and RPE scale. Worth trying out.

Do have a good look around for some good speed workouts though - by no means should you go out there and do 20 400m repeats, nor should you be doing this type of workout often, lest you are really are looking to get hurt.


That's a very useful tool! Now I feel I have the beginnings of a plan. I can't wait to incorporate this into my training!
2014-12-16 7:14 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Originally posted by brigby1

I haven't looked closely enough here to see if the sprint work is best, but did want to suggest working into those kinds of speeds over time and being careful with it. I follow Daniels more so than McMillan, but there are some similarities. If really going for the sprint work, start with shorter and fewer intervals. Also going slower than than recommended at first. I started closer to what would be Speed paces here and worked up to the equivalent of Sprint over several weeks. Had to learn a few things about them. One is to still run very smooth or it defeats a major point of them. Another is to let my body adapt. Both to actually moving that fast again and the strain it puts. A few spots were much more sore the next day than I thought they would be the first few times. And from I follow, the recommended upper limit was only 5% of the weekly total. I forget what McMillan has. So for 20 miles a week, do less than a mile of this to start.




I will definitely proceed with caution. I know how injuries can creep up on a person really innocuously where they don't even realize they are in a danger zone until the damage has already been done. 5% of my weekly total would be a bit over 1/2 mile - I think I can handle that!
2014-12-16 7:23 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Originally posted by jennifer_runs

Originally posted by Caroleena

I've been running about 3 years and yes, I would say 9 min miles would be my tempo run pace. I am 43 if that matters.

What pace would you suggest for intervals if I decided I did want to improve my speed a bit?


If you are doing all of your running at 9:00/mile, I would argue that is NOT your tempo pace.

Tempo pace is the pace that you could run an all-out time trial for an hour, so for you a bit slower than your 10K race pace. Typical tempo run workouts would be about 20 minutes at that pace (longer if one is doing higher mileage), or 2-3 tempo intervals of about 10 minutes each with short recovery. If you are doing all of your runs at that pace, that's obviously too fast-- but this just means that 9:00/mile is actually slower than your real tempo pace. It is likely that in-between pace I was talking about before-- too fast to be "easy" pace, too slow to be "tempo" pace.

If you want to do some "speed work" at this point, I would suggest either a true tempo run or tempo intervals. That is, slow down your easy runs to closer to 9:45/mile, and on one run/week do a tempo workout: 10 min easy, 20 min at tempo ("comfortably hard", which should be harder than your 9:00/mile pace now), 10 min easy. Or do 10 minutes easy, 2 x 10 min hard with 2 min easy recovery, 10 min easy.

Just to give you a comparison-- when I can race a 10K at 8:00/mile, my easy pace is about 10:00/mile (or 9:30/mile at the fastest). I do almost no running at 9:00/mile, but will do tempo runs at 8:00/mile and short speed work at a faster pace (closer to 7:30/mile).


Thanks for the ideas. I will be trying my luck at the 10 easy/10 hard/2 recovery/10 hard/2 recovery/10 easy this weekend! Is it acceptable to walk the 2 min easy portions rather than a slow run??
2014-12-16 11:19 PM
in reply to: #5074831

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Go for it.


2014-12-17 7:38 AM
in reply to: Caroleena

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?

Originally posted by Caroleena
Originally posted by jennifer_runs
Originally posted by Caroleena I've been running about 3 years and yes, I would say 9 min miles would be my tempo run pace. I am 43 if that matters. What pace would you suggest for intervals if I decided I did want to improve my speed a bit?
If you are doing all of your running at 9:00/mile, I would argue that is NOT your tempo pace. Tempo pace is the pace that you could run an all-out time trial for an hour, so for you a bit slower than your 10K race pace. Typical tempo run workouts would be about 20 minutes at that pace (longer if one is doing higher mileage), or 2-3 tempo intervals of about 10 minutes each with short recovery. If you are doing all of your runs at that pace, that's obviously too fast-- but this just means that 9:00/mile is actually slower than your real tempo pace. It is likely that in-between pace I was talking about before-- too fast to be "easy" pace, too slow to be "tempo" pace. If you want to do some "speed work" at this point, I would suggest either a true tempo run or tempo intervals. That is, slow down your easy runs to closer to 9:45/mile, and on one run/week do a tempo workout: 10 min easy, 20 min at tempo ("comfortably hard", which should be harder than your 9:00/mile pace now), 10 min easy. Or do 10 minutes easy, 2 x 10 min hard with 2 min easy recovery, 10 min easy. Just to give you a comparison-- when I can race a 10K at 8:00/mile, my easy pace is about 10:00/mile (or 9:30/mile at the fastest). I do almost no running at 9:00/mile, but will do tempo runs at 8:00/mile and short speed work at a faster pace (closer to 7:30/mile).
Thanks for the ideas. I will be trying my luck at the 10 easy/10 hard/2 recovery/10 hard/2 recovery/10 easy this weekend! Is it acceptable to walk the 2 min easy portions rather than a slow run??

Recovery sections are just that, so do what you need to be ready for the next hard part. So in many cases (though not necessarily all), walking some is fine. Do make sure you're still loose enough to go right from the start of the next hard part. Don't want to spend the first few minutes of it warming up again. I still tend to progress into an interval of that size, but we're only talking a few seconds per mile over the first couple minutes, or (more accurately) a tenth or two mph on the treadmill.

2014-12-17 8:00 AM
in reply to: Caroleena

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Subject: RE: How do you know if you are running too fast?
Originally posted by Caroleena

Thanks. So since I run 3 days/week; usually 4 miles x 2 and one long run at 6 miles, should I be running one of the 4 milers at a faster pace (maybe 8.75-9 min per mile), the other 4 miler at 9.5 min per mile, and my longer run at 10 min per mile? Or something like that?


Take this for what it's worth (free advice on the internet), but I think you don't need to worry about speedwork with that kind of volume. I bet you'd get more out of just increasing your volume (slowly...10% a week). Run mostly easy, and just run hard every once in a while.

There are many ways to get faster, and you could argue speedwork is a good way to do that, but you generally want volume (consistency) first to allow for physiological adaptions that your body makes from running more. In other words, you become more "durable" and are less apt to get hurt from the pounding your body gets from running. This is ESPECIALLY important once you start speedwork b/c it's SO easy to get hurt doing it.

One of the plans that is highly touted is the BarryP plan.

Good luck!
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