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2015-04-24 4:30 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...
I'm doing a Half Marathon next weekend and a 3-day training camp on the Coeur d'Alene Ironman course mid-May. The HM is a C-level race, so normally I wouldn't taper. On the other hand, it is a long distance for me and I would like to minimize the risk of injury. Likewise, there is a lot of running and biking at the CdA camp and I want to minimize my risk of injury. I'm thinking I might do a short taper for both the HM and the 3-day camp. Here is my idea and I'd like your feedback:

Half Marathon (Friday May 2): Do a significant taper on the run (short run on Tuesday, nothing the rest of the week). Do normal bike workouts Monday and Wednesday but eliminate the Friday workout. Swim as normal M-Thu, but no swimming Friday.

Training Camp (Friday 5/15 through Sunday 5/18): Pretty much the same plan. Short Run Tuesday and nothing else until the camp. Normal bike workouts Monday and Wednesday. Swim as normal Monday through Wednesday.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Scott I.


2015-04-24 9:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

I'm doing a Half Marathon next weekend and a 3-day training camp on the Coeur d'Alene Ironman course mid-May. The HM is a C-level race, so normally I wouldn't taper. On the other hand, it is a long distance for me and I would like to minimize the risk of injury. Likewise, there is a lot of running and biking at the CdA camp and I want to minimize my risk of injury. I'm thinking I might do a short taper for both the HM and the 3-day camp . . .

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Scott I.

Hey Scott,

I have a couple thoughts.

I looked at your training log and see that you did a 13.5 mile run just last Saturday. While 13-milers may not regularly be in your training plan, you can clearly go that distance.  Now, if your concern for the upcoming HM stems from pain after the 13.5-mile run, then that is a different discussion.  If the thought of a "short taper" is from an abundance of caution specifically to reduce the risk of injury then tapering probably isn't going to do what you think it is going to do.  The same applies to the CdA camp.  I absolutely understand the desire to minimize injury.  That is my first thought in virtually every training/racing decision I make.  However, a taper is not going to directly minimize the risk of injury.

Let me try and explain "tapering," and I will try and do this as "non-scientific" as I can.

When we train, we apply a training stress to our bodies.  Over the days, weeks and months, those training stresses accumulate creating this thing we call fitness - that is a good thing.  On the flip side of the coin however, as we train and apply training stress to our bodies, we are also creating fatigue.  That is fairly intuitive; if you go for a two hour run or a three hour bike ride, your legs are going to feel heavy and you wouldn't be at your best if you tried to perform at the highest level.  As we go through the season, often using a process known as periodization, we attempt to "balance" our fitness with the fatigue by having recovery days or weeks - we don't want the fatigue to climb so high that it impacts our training and causes a reduction in fitness (a really, really basic description of what happens).  When our most important race approaches, we need to lower our fatigue, while maintaining our fitness, so that we can compete at the highest level - in a process known as a taper.  That can be a tricky process.

For a taper to be effective, there first has to be sufficient weekly training volume to necessitate a taper - generally 10-12 hours of training per week or more.  Below that level of training, a full taper adversely reduces fitness resulting in reduced performance.  Remember the goal of a taper is to reduce fatigue while maintaining fitness.  In general, that is achieved by gradually reducing volume over 2-3 weeks while increasing intensity.

Now, looking at a taper in the context of your HM and the camp, I seem to recall from the workout challenge that your training volume is sufficiently high that you would benefit from a FULL taper if your intent was to put forth your best performance.  However, a) a full taper takes 2-3 weeks, and b) you aren't seeking your best performance, you are seeking injury prevention.

Tapering is about becoming "fresher."  Tapering is about going from "tired legs," and "tired arms," to feeling like Superman.  Arguably being on fresher legs may reduce the risk of injury slightly, however, in reality, unless you did a hard two+ hour run or bike ride, an overnight recovery will result in enough recovery to reduce the risk of injury.  (I can explain all of this a lot more clearly but that means a long drawn out scientific discussion which I don't think anyone wants to read).

The final thought is that only backing off for a couple days is not really going to accomplish anything.  Yes, it will reduce your accumulated fatigue by a barely measurable amount, but it will also reduce your fitness, again by a barely measurable amount.  In short, it really isn't going to do much of anything.  If it will make you feel better, back off a bit on the Friday before.  That way you won't be tired when you get there.  Note however, that tired is not the same as fatigue in the context I am using them.

Good luck in your HM and have fun at the camp!

Hope that helps a little bit.

Edited to say:

A quick side thought, if you decide you want to taper for the HM for a better performance, there is still time for a partial taper that would help your performance.  Send me a private message and we can talk about it.



Edited by k9car363 2015-04-24 9:56 PM
2015-04-25 2:40 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

I'm doing a Half Marathon next weekend and a 3-day training camp on the Coeur d'Alene Ironman course mid-May. The HM is a C-level race, so normally I wouldn't taper. On the other hand, it is a long distance for me and I would like to minimize the risk of injury. Likewise, there is a lot of running and biking at the CdA camp and I want to minimize my risk of injury. I'm thinking I might do a short taper for both the HM and the 3-day camp . . .

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Scott I.

Hey Scott,

I have a couple thoughts.

I looked at your training log and see that you did a 13.5 mile run just last Saturday. While 13-milers may not regularly be in your training plan, you can clearly go that distance.  Now, if your concern for the upcoming HM stems from pain after the 13.5-mile run, then that is a different discussion.  If the thought of a "short taper" is from an abundance of caution specifically to reduce the risk of injury then tapering probably isn't going to do what you think it is going to do.  The same applies to the CdA camp.  I absolutely understand the desire to minimize injury.  That is my first thought in virtually every training/racing decision I make.  However, a taper is not going to directly minimize the risk of injury.

...



Thanks Scott!

My real concern IS the potential for injury. I'm training 10 to 12 hrs a week (7 to 9 hrs during the monthly recovery week) and my body is telling me I shouldn't try to increase that volume - especially in the run (no more than 3 hrs running). There is no point in tapering if taper isn't going to reduce the risk of injury.

I'll adjust my workouts on the weeks of the HM and camp to achieve desired weekly volume. For next week (the week leading up to the HM) this means keeping my normal swim and bike schedule, and have the HM replace two of the three weekly runs to stay under 3hrs total running. For the camp weekend, I'll swim normally the days before the camp (no swimming at camp) and I'll probably be doing all my weekly biking and running at the camp.

I'd love to learn more about taper, but that discussion could wait for a while if you prefer. I don't have an A-race until June.

Thanks!
2015-04-25 6:44 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Farmington, Connecticut
Subject: RE: The Weekend is Here!
Hi all,

No race for me this weekend. Taking a longish cold ride this morning, then a swim and run tomorrow.

Next weekend will be my first race, a 15k run .

Happy training,

Dave
2015-04-25 8:50 AM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: RE: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

I'll adjust my workouts on the weeks of the HM and camp to achieve desired weekly volume. For next week (the week leading up to the HM) this means keeping my normal swim and bike schedule, and have the HM replace two of the three weekly runs to stay under 3hrs total running. For the camp weekend, I'll swim normally the days before the camp (no swimming at camp) and I'll probably be doing all my weekly biking and running at the camp.

Now that sounds like an intelligent plan based on well thought out rationale!

Anytime you want to hear details about tapering, just say the word.

2015-04-26 1:11 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: Weight Loss Challenge - 4/26/2015 Check-In
Originally posted by k9car363

Hey Everyone -

Here is the more detailed breakdown I promised for the Weight Loss/Workout Challenge.

How you earn points -

  • +5 points for no weight gain
  • +/- 1 point per pound lost/gained, or fraction thereof
  • +1 point for every 30 workout minutes



Weight unchanged (150) and I exercised 10hrs 0min (275 min swimming, 255 min biking, and 70 min running). So, my points for the week:

  • +5 points for no weight gain
  • +0 points for 0 pound lost
  • +20.0 point for 600 workout minutes
  • Total: 25.0 points


I have my first half-marathon next weekend. I'll do a run/walk with an average pace of about 11 min/mile.



2015-04-26 6:09 PM
in reply to: 0

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Spencer, New York
Subject: RE: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...
Originally posted by EchoLkScott

I would like to minimize the risk of injury.
Any thoughts or suggestions?

Scott I.


If you want to minimize the risk of injury, you ought to consider adding core & hip-strengthening exercises even if it means cutting back on time spent on the other disciplines. Maybe you already do this but don't show it in your log.
Most running injuries come from weaknesses in these areas (or from bad running mechanics).
There is a lot written on various running sites. Two that I like are www.runnersconnect.com and www.strengthrunning.com
There's probably things on multisport sites as well. Maybe there will be input on this subject at your camp.
For myself, I now do 20-30 minutes strength training 6 days per week, with almost all of it being hip and core. This doesn't include stretching, foam rolling, or, now, physical therapy exercises--which also happen to be more hip & core. Of course, I'm older & more dilapidated than you. Everybody's needs would be different, but neglecting this area will I think eventually lead to injury.
By the way, I hate almost every minute of it, but I have been injured by neglecting it and I hate that more.
Obviously, I'm not talking about your upcoming events in the near term, but about the course of your training over the entire season, and seasons to come.
Deb



Edited by ok2try 2015-04-26 6:17 PM
2015-04-27 9:29 AM
in reply to: ok2try

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Subject: first tri of the season.
My daughter and I started this years season off with the same one that was our first, last year, St Anthony's sprint. I finished 10 minutes faster than last year, even with slowing down during the run to finish with my daughter, who was struggling to continue running the last 2 miles.

The swim seemed longer than last year. Maybe it was the current and wind, but the last 200 it felt like the water was pulling me backward. About the same swim time as last year, even though this year I did freestyle the whole way, unlike my backstroke last year. I was out of breathe getting out of the water, but managed to take 2 min off my T1 time (500 yard jog to transition).

My bike was awesome, for me, despite the wind (14-16mph). I knocked 12 minutes off my previous bike time, but this year I had my road bike. Even maxed at 24.4mph, but avg was 16, per my computer, that also said we only did 11 miles, not the 12 expected. It was the same route though.

I was doing ok with the run, but after mile 1, I saw my daughter and decided to stay with her, encouraging her the whole way. We took several walk breaks, but ended crossing the finishing line holding hands, arms raised overhead. Last year, I passed her and finished a minute ahead of her, and I felt bad for not finishing with her, so I wanted to make up for this. Her wave started 3 min ahead of mine, so I still won

During the race, I was thinking of my longer planned races, and how speed won't be an issue, just finishing will. After our race, we collected our bikes, and saw some people still finishing, but I noticed one lady just starting the run portion of the olympic. The olympic started over 1.5 hours prior to the sprint, so this poor lady, alone, still had 6 miles to run, 4 hours into her race. As I was showering at home, I thought of her again, still running. I hope that the spectators that were cheering and spraying us with water hoses were still there for her.
2015-04-27 10:58 AM
in reply to: ok2try

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Subject: RE: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...
Originally posted by ok2try

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

I would like to minimize the risk of injury.
Any thoughts or suggestions?

Scott I.


If you want to minimize the risk of injury, you ought to consider adding core & hip-strengthening exercises even if it means cutting back on time spent on the other disciplines. Maybe you already do this but don't show it in your log.
Most running injuries come from weaknesses in these areas (or from bad running mechanics).
There is a lot written on various running sites. Two that I like are www.runnersconnect.com and www.strengthrunning.com
There's probably things on multisport sites as well. Maybe there will be input on this subject at your camp.
For myself, I now do 20-30 minutes strength training 6 days per week, with almost all of it being hip and core. This doesn't include stretching, foam rolling, or, now, physical therapy exercises--which also happen to be more hip & core. Of course, I'm older & more dilapidated than you. Everybody's needs would be different, but neglecting this area will I think eventually lead to injury.
By the way, I hate almost every minute of it, but I have been injured by neglecting it and I hate that more.
Obviously, I'm not talking about your upcoming events in the near term, but about the course of your training over the entire season, and seasons to come.
Deb




Thanks Deb! That's a good point about the strength training. I've been doing workouts from the book "Quick Strength Training for Runners" by Jeff Horowitz. It includes a lot of core and hip work. However, I average only one strength workout per week - nothing like the six workouts you do. I definitely need to up my game in this area.

2015-04-27 6:19 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Spencer, New York
Subject: RE: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...





Thanks Deb! That's a good point about the strength training. I've been doing workouts from the book "Quick Strength Training for Runners" by Jeff Horowitz. It includes a lot of core and hip work. However, I average only one strength workout per week - nothing like the six workouts you do. I definitely need to up my game in this area.



I had to learn the hard way!
Right now I do a 22 minute hip routine 2x week, a 24-minute core routine 2 x week, one or the other right after a run or cycling workout. Philosophy I've picked up: make a hard workout harder. Indeed.
On an easy day I do an 8-minute core called Myrtle, again right after an easy run, keeping the easy day easy.
I do the strength training from Triathlete's Training Bible 1 x week. Should be 2x, but that's all I can squeeze in. By the time I take out anything involving hamstrings there's not a lot left to it, just upper body & some more core.
That's on a good week, when life doesn't get in the way too much; but it's always at least 4x. I need to keep these old bones mobile for another 20 years, at least.
Have a good week everyone.
Deb


2015-04-27 9:13 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Penticton, BC
Subject: RE: Weight Loss Challenge - 4/26/2015 Check-In

Weight Loss Challenge:

a.) 6.01 hours workouts = 12 points

b.) 1 lb weight loss         =  1 point

c.) No weight gain         =  5 points

d.) Total                       = 18 points.

It was a short week for me but back at it again.

I went out for a longish bike ride yesterday and I enjoyed the ride but I was disappointed with my pace - very slow - and I had some significant saddle issues with my ischial tuberosities (sit bones).  I was uncomfortable before half way and by the time I finished (3.5 hours) it was quite painful.  Not sure why as I've ridden longer rides on this same saddle without any issues.

I usually wear tri-shorts which are pretty thin so I can't imagine it would be because they are worn out but when I ride again I'll wear my new pair of tri-shorts and see how it goes.  In the meantime, I've got an appointment with my Chiro on Thursday.



2015-04-28 6:04 AM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: RE: Weight Loss Challenge - 4/26/2015 Check-In

Weight - lost 1.3 pounds

Workout - 163 minutes - I finally bowed to the fact that I will not be doing IM Louisville in October.  No sense trying to rack up 20+ hours per week with no race to "spend" it on.

2015-04-28 6:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...

Originally posted by ok2try . . . On an easy day I do an 8-minute core called Myrtle, again right after an easy run, keeping the easy day easy.

Deb

Hey Deb,

When I started working with a running coach, the first thing he did was start me doing Jay Johnson's 'Lunge Matrix' before runs - http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/video-lunges-warmup-jay-johnson - and his 'Myrtl Routine' after runs - http://www.njsportsmed.com/files/myrtl_routine.pdf.  The two routines combined add about 15-minutes to my runs.  However, I have no doubt in my mind that the two sessions have gone a long ways towards minimizing the injury potential, have strengthened my hips and core and ultimately have allowed me to run faster.

While I don't advocate mimicking elite's workouts, I do think it is beneficial to look at what elite's do and draw knowledge from that.  Virtually every elite runner - worldwide - does these routines an a regular basis.  That is good enough reason for me to incorporate them into my normal regimen.

 



Edited by k9car363 2015-04-28 6:28 AM
2015-04-28 6:30 AM
in reply to: Kris67

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Subject: RE: first tri of the season.

Originally posted by Kris67 My daughter and I started this years season off with the same one that was our first, last year, St Anthony's sprint. I finished 10 minutes faster than last year, even with slowing down during the run to finish with my daughter . . .

Alright, Kris!

And the best part is you finished hand-in-hand with your daughter!  Can't imagine a better finish.

2015-04-28 7:25 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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238
10010025
Farmington, Connecticut
Subject: RE: Weight Loss Challenge - 4/26/2015 Check-In
My numbers for the week:

481 workout minutes 16 pts
no weight gain 5 pts
total: 21 pts

Outdoor training is ramping up in week 3 of my HIM program. Also looking forward to first road race, a 15k event on Sunday.

Happy Training,
Dave
2015-04-28 4:56 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Weight Loss Challenge - 4/26/2015 Check-In
Originally posted by k9car363

I finally bowed to the fact that I will not be doing IM Louisville in October.  No sense trying to rack up 20+ hours per week with no race to "spend" it on.




How is the shoulder rehab going Scott?


2015-04-28 5:17 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Spencer, New York
Subject: RE: Recommended taper for HM and CdA training camp...
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by ok2try . . . On an easy day I do an 8-minute core called Myrtle, again right after an easy run, keeping the easy day easy.

Deb

Hey Deb,

When I started working with a running coach, the first thing he did was start me doing Jay Johnson's 'Lunge Matrix' before runs - http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/video-lunges-warmup-jay-johnson - and his 'Myrtl Routine' after runs - http://www.njsportsmed.com/files/myrtl_routine.pdf.  The two routines combined add about 15-minutes to my runs.  However, I have no doubt in my mind that the two sessions have gone a long ways towards minimizing the injury potential, have strengthened my hips and core and ultimately have allowed me to run faster.

While I don't advocate mimicking elite's workouts, I do think it is beneficial to look at what elite's do and draw knowledge from that.  Virtually every elite runner - worldwide - does these routines an a regular basis.  That is good enough reason for me to incorporate them into my normal regimen.

 



The myrtle's the same I use, and the lunge matrix is a part of my standard warmup routine.
Learning from the elites: last December I went to a presentation by 4 Oregon runners who had placed in the top 20 in the grueling Western States 100-miler. (One was my SIL, who took 4th!).When asked what they focused on in the race, 2 or 3 concurred: listening to their bodies and taking care of them. I believe they were talking about nutrition, but this lesson can also be generalized. I have no ambition EVER to run 100 miles, but I do have a long race ahead of me and if I don't take care of myself in every way I can, I won't make it to the finish line.
Deb
2015-04-28 6:33 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: RE: Weight Loss Challenge - 4/26/2015 Check-In

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

How is the shoulder rehab going Scott?

Hey Scott,

Thanks for asking.

It's going OK.  I just want it to go faster.  Satan's helper, I mean my physical therapist, says It will likely be mid August before I have full range of motion and I can really start swimming with a purpose again.  If indeed I can start swim workouts around the middle of August that would leave me only about 5-weeks to get ready for an IM swim because the taper would start in the last week of September.  My goal was to qualify for Kona so since that isn't going to happen,I decided to pull the plug on the race.

I will still be going back to Kentucky as I have two athletes I have been coaching for the race, not to mention my entire extended family is in southern Indiana.  I am looking on the bright side, this way I get to see the winners cross the finish line!

My season isn't a total loss.  I will probably do an Olympic or two late this summer or early fall and then HITS has a full Iron distance race in December out in Palm Springs which is only 50-miles away so I will do that race this year and figure out a Kona qualifier for next year.

This is my first experience with a real injury and I am hear to tell you, I don't like it!

2015-04-29 7:54 AM
in reply to: Kris67

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Hingham, MA
Subject: RE: first tri of the season.
Great job finishing with your daughter. What a great feeling that must have been. Congrats!!!
2015-04-29 6:12 PM
in reply to: Kris67

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344
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Spencer, New York
Subject: RE: first tri of the season.
Originally posted by Kris67

My daughter and I started this years season off with the same one that was our first, last year, St Anthony's sprint. I finished 10 minutes faster than last year, even with slowing down during the run to finish with my daughter, who was struggling to continue running the last 2 miles.



Congratulations on your great race. A 10-minute improvement is huge!
Deb
2015-04-29 9:59 PM
in reply to: 0

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East Wenatchee, Washington
Subject: RE: surgery tomorrow
Heading for Seattle. Tomorrow morning I get my collarbone plated...which will hopefully finally get me on the road to recovery.

The xray from two weeks ago pretty clearly shows how the collar bone hasn't healed. You can also see my top two ribs and the breaks that have sort of healed on those

Moral of the story: Be careful on the bike!

Steve

Edited by lutzman 2015-04-29 10:02 PM




(xray.jpg)



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2015-04-30 7:23 AM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: surgery tomorrow
Hope the surgery goes well and wishing a speedy recovery.

Hang in there Steve.
2015-04-30 4:36 PM
in reply to: JREDFLY

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Subject: 04/26 Weightloss/Workout Challenge Points Update

Oh my gosh!  My bad!  I completely spaced and simply forgot I had to do the points update.

SORRY!

Just a reminder that next week will be the final week of the Weightloss/Workout Challenge.  We will declare a winner after the points are tallied.  I figure if I workout about 3,000 minutes and lose 100 pounds over the next few days I have a chance!





(0426_weightloss_workout.jpg)



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2015-04-30 4:40 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: surgery tomorrow

Originally posted by lutzman Heading for Seattle. Tomorrow morning I get my collarbone plated...which will hopefully finally get me on the road to recovery. The xray from two weeks ago pretty clearly shows how the collar bone hasn't healed. You can also see my top two ribs and the breaks that have sort of healed on those Moral of the story: Be careful on the bike! Steve

That x-ray was from two weeks ago?  And you have been living with that for how long?  Your a BEAST!

Good luck Steve, hope the surgery goes well.

2015-04-30 7:11 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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East Wenatchee, Washington
Subject: RE: surgery tomorrow
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by lutzman Heading for Seattle. Tomorrow morning I get my collarbone plated...which will hopefully finally get me on the road to recovery. The xray from two weeks ago pretty clearly shows how the collar bone hasn't healed. You can also see my top two ribs and the breaks that have sort of healed on those Moral of the story: Be careful on the bike! Steve

That x-ray was from two weeks ago?  And you have been living with that for how long?  Your a BEAST!

Good luck Steve, hope the surgery goes well.




Hey Scott:

Yeah, they took it April 20 at my pre-surgery meeting. Pretty nasty.

I'm back from surgery now. It took about two hours for the operation. Seemed to go well. On to recovery!

Steve
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