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2015-01-25 9:24 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by axteraa

Did a trainer workout with both PMs today - 4 x 10' @ 265w (90%).  The AP for the 4 intervals were within 2w of each other which is a good sign but doesn't really give any insight into what happened on Thursday.  I'll do a few more like that to see if I can spot anything.

no autozeros, correct ? I would do workouts with autozeros each interval. If you see them diverge and come back, it's probably the autozero. I would suggest a 3rd PM to confirm which is at fault :-)

One autozero around the 15 min mark (before the 4 x 10).  Good thought on zeroing between each interval to see what that does.

As for the 3rd PM, I just need you or Rusty to send me your Vectors and I'd be happy to try it!  

Isn't this like the man with two watches saying ("A man with one watch knows what time it is.  A man with two watches is never sure.")  

Did 1:45 on the trainer this morning (Sufferfest's Blender video).  I can tell the bike fitness is coming back....felt much stronger today in comparison to yesterday.  Heading out for a short run later today.



2015-01-25 9:43 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by axteraa

Did a trainer workout with both PMs today - 4 x 10' @ 265w (90%).  The AP for the 4 intervals were within 2w of each other which is a good sign but doesn't really give any insight into what happened on Thursday.  I'll do a few more like that to see if I can spot anything.

no autozeros, correct ? I would do workouts with autozeros each interval. If you see them diverge and come back, it's probably the autozero. I would suggest a 3rd PM to confirm which is at fault :-)

One autozero around the 15 min mark (before the 4 x 10).  Good thought on zeroing between each interval to see what that does.

As for the 3rd PM, I just need you or Rusty to send me your Vectors and I'd be happy to try it!  




If you can get to occur on a autozero then you can disable one of the two autozeros and figure out which has the problem
If you do have auto zero issues, you definitely want to know.

Edited by marcag 2015-01-25 9:59 AM
2015-01-25 7:13 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Gah. Back in the hole. Had hopes of a long run today. 7 minutes in it was clear the hammy's not done doing what it needs to. At least I am getting better at pulling the plug when things go badly. Moped at home for a bit, then pulled the big boy pants on and went out for a paddle (we have had whales hanging out for a few days, cool to see them from that vantage point) then off to the pool, 1k easy warmup then 1:00 aqua jog. turned out to be not such a bad day
2015-01-26 8:09 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by ChrisM

Gah. Back in the hole. Had hopes of a long run today. 7 minutes in it was clear the hammy's not done doing what it needs to. At least I am getting better at pulling the plug when things go badly. Moped at home for a bit, then pulled the big boy pants on and went out for a paddle (we have had whales hanging out for a few days, cool to see them from that vantage point) then off to the pool, 1k easy warmup then 1:00 aqua jog. turned out to be not such a bad day


I aqua-jogged last year. I think it helped. I was only doing 30min at a time which may not have been enough.
When I came back it's almost as if I had continued doing short runs, but my long run suffered.

2015-01-26 8:38 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by ChrisM Gah. Back in the hole. Had hopes of a long run today. 7 minutes in it was clear the hammy's not done doing what it needs to. At least I am getting better at pulling the plug when things go badly. Moped at home for a bit, then pulled the big boy pants on and went out for a paddle (we have had whales hanging out for a few days, cool to see them from that vantage point) then off to the pool, 1k easy warmup then 1:00 aqua jog. turned out to be not such a bad day

Bummer.  Taking the long view, you'll be back at it soon enough, but it never feels that way in the moment.

That said, sounds like an otherwise stellar day - like the kind of day most people would remember for the balance of their life (whales from a kayak?!?).  Glad that part at least turned around. 

And my experience with aquajogging last winter for a strained hammy (continued intensity right after a HM did that one to me) was very similar to what Marc describes.  I will say that the long run did come back more quickly than if I just was doing cycling for the legs/engine (another rehab route I've taken in the past, including quite recently).  I hated most of the aquajogging, but it was effective for me.

Matt

2015-01-26 12:43 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Got through the first week of this free Carmichael training plan I'm doing.  Nice to have some structure that's a bit out of my hands.  Only realized that their definition of power ranges is a bit different though (more based off of a max 2x8' power than FTP), so the first few workouts I was doing about 10-15% lower watts than I should have been.  No wonder they felt just sort of challenging instead of really hard.  Once I figured that out though, the weekend rides felt like solid workouts.

 



2015-01-26 1:05 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by Jason N

Got through the first week of this free Carmichael training plan I'm doing.  Nice to have some structure that's a bit out of my hands.  Only realized that their definition of power ranges is a bit different though (more based off of a max 2x8' power than FTP), so the first few workouts I was doing about 10-15% lower watts than I should have been.  No wonder they felt just sort of challenging instead of really hard.  Once I figured that out though, the weekend rides felt like solid workouts.

Trip down memory lane for me.  I'd forgotten about the 8' test that he uses, but now remember that ride (very clearly, actually - gut buster) - and the run, too...  We used the Time Crunched Triathlete program for the two sprints Kim and I did when we "came back" into triathlon a few years ago.

I agree that the workouts were pretty solid.  Weakness for me was that his program worked well for sprint and OK for Oly, but I started to think about longer events and bigger base, which he expressly acknowledges took a different approach than the time crunched one. 

Have never tried his cycling specific workouts, though I have a book or two by him (for balance in my thinking about cobbling together my own "plan").  Will be interested to hear how you like it over time and what you think of the longer term results.

All in, I saw nice gains following the plan.  Glad the structure is a positive for you!

Matt

2015-01-26 1:08 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by ChrisM Gah. Back in the hole. Had hopes of a long run today. 7 minutes in it was clear the hammy's not done doing what it needs to. At least I am getting better at pulling the plug when things go badly. Moped at home for a bit, then pulled the big boy pants on and went out for a paddle (we have had whales hanging out for a few days, cool to see them from that vantage point) then off to the pool, 1k easy warmup then 1:00 aqua jog. turned out to be not such a bad day

Bummer.  Taking the long view, you'll be back at it soon enough, but it never feels that way in the moment.

That said, sounds like an otherwise stellar day - like the kind of day most people would remember for the balance of their life (whales from a kayak?!?).  Glad that part at least turned around. 

And my experience with aquajogging last winter for a strained hammy (continued intensity right after a HM did that one to me) was very similar to what Marc describes.  I will say that the long run did come back more quickly than if I just was doing cycling for the legs/engine (another rehab route I've taken in the past, including quite recently).  I hated most of the aquajogging, but it was effective for me.

Matt

Yeah, the whales were actually from a stand up board.   Didn't get too close, just enjoyed the view from probably 200 yds or so.  It was a bit of a circus out there (it was right outside the harbor, and there have been reports for days of a mama and baby humpback, so it was quite the scene), so I let others try to chase and get close, and I just hung out to see if they'd come to me   

Aqua jogging, wow, my glutes were INCREDIBLY sore after that.  Not sure if it means I am doing it right or not, but something was firing down there.  Found a pool with evening lap swim (oddly, where I am in southern california, there are not a whole lot of available public pools without paying masters fees), and plan on going 2-3 times this week at night.  

2015-01-26 1:37 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

oddly, where I am in southern california, there are not a whole lot of available public pools without paying masters fees

That's because you guys don't have any water

2015-01-26 2:12 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by spudone

oddly, where I am in southern california, there are not a whole lot of available public pools without paying masters fees

That's because you guys don't have any water

Duathlons galore!

2015-01-26 2:23 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by spudone

oddly, where I am in southern california, there are not a whole lot of available public pools without paying masters fees

That's because you guys don't have any water

Duathlons galore!

Got lots of water, it's all salty 



2015-01-26 6:36 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by ChrisM Gah. Back in the hole. Had hopes of a long run today. 7 minutes in it was clear the hammy's not done doing what it needs to. At least I am getting better at pulling the plug when things go badly. Moped at home for a bit, then pulled the big boy pants on and went out for a paddle (we have had whales hanging out for a few days, cool to see them from that vantage point) then off to the pool, 1k easy warmup then 1:00 aqua jog. turned out to be not such a bad day

That sounds like a GREAT day, I am glad you can find the joy in other areas. It's so important.

I love the vantage point a SUP gives you. It's like walking on water. 

2015-01-27 6:58 AM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Did another trainer workout this morning with both PMs, VO2max this time.  The two PMs agreed within a couple of watts until I got into the higher power stuff at which point the PT was about 10-15w lower.  So, since I have the day off work due to snowmageddon, I started looking even more closely at the numbers and what I see is that the data from the PT will have 1 or 2 data points suddenly lower than those around it while the P2Max has consistent ones.  Here is an example of a 15s section

P2M    PT
359    368
358    368
362    318 <-
350    315 <-
338    338
337    346
344    357
348    325
350    326
350    328
344    346
344    346
344    346
341    329
343    312 <-
345    312 <-
338    350
346    337 - Avg

If I change those 31x numbers from the PT to 34x then the average for the PT goes up to 344.  So, I'm just going to stop torturing myself, say the PT is at fault and go with the bigger numbers.  

 

2015-01-27 7:29 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by axteraa

Did another trainer workout this morning with both PMs, VO2max this time.  The two PMs agreed within a couple of watts until I got into the higher power stuff at which point the PT was about 10-15w lower.  So, since I have the day off work due to snowmageddon, I started looking even more closely at the numbers and what I see is that the data from the PT will have 1 or 2 data points suddenly lower than those around it while the P2Max has consistent ones.  Here is an example of a 15s section

P2M    PT
359    368
358    368
362    318 <-
350    315 <-
338    338
337    346
344    357
348    325
350    326
350    328
344    346
344    346
344    346
341    329
343    312 <-
345    312 <-
338    350
346    337 - Avg

If I change those 31x numbers from the PT to 34x then the average for the PT goes up to 344.  So, I'm just going to stop torturing myself, say the PT is at fault and go with the bigger numbers.  

 




so.....the solution is to give the PM that reads the lower values to the wife ?

I agree. They have low kgs anyways so their w/kg won't even notice :-)


I AM KIDDING !!!!


2015-01-27 7:33 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Admitting I haven't gone to look - is the new version of GC out that includes swim and run?

Autozero for a PT - where do I do this in my 910?  I took a look last night while on the trainer, but only found the Calibrate screen, which I do before every ride.

2015-01-27 7:47 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by GoFaster

Admitting I haven't gone to look - is the new version of GC out that includes swim and run?

Autozero for a PT - where do I do this in my 910?  I took a look last night while on the trainer, but only found the Calibrate screen, which I do before every ride.




Not yet, end of month they should be releasing the release candidates.

Autozero will occur when you let the wheel spin with no power applied.


2015-01-27 8:36 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by marcag so.....the solution is to give the PM that reads the lower values to the wife ? I agree. They have low kgs anyways so their w/kg won't even notice :-) I AM KIDDING !!!!

Well, actually she was using that PT for a few months....   when I bought the P2Max I sold a PT to a friend.  I sold him the one Tab was using because mine had a small ding in the brake track so I wanted to give him the one in better shape.  So that's what she used until I got her a P2Max.

2015-01-27 8:48 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by GoFaster

Admitting I haven't gone to look - is the new version of GC out that includes swim and run?

Autozero for a PT - where do I do this in my 910?  I took a look last night while on the trainer, but only found the Calibrate screen, which I do before every ride.

Garmins (mine at least) used to have the option to turn it off in earlier firmware versions but they seem to have taken that away.

2015-01-27 11:05 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by GoFaster

Admitting I haven't gone to look - is the new version of GC out that includes swim and run?

Autozero for a PT - where do I do this in my 910?  I took a look last night while on the trainer, but only found the Calibrate screen, which I do before every ride.

Not yet, end of month they should be releasing the release candidates. Autozero will occur when you let the wheel spin with no power applied.

I wonder what the resistance from the trainer against the wheel does to the power numbers.  I remember calibrating the PT once after I had applied the pressure from the trainer against the rear wheel and it gave whacky torque values - but maybe that's just because it was stationary.

I tried the offset yesterday by stopping pedaling, but it didn't help increase my dismal power numbers...I was having a rough workout, and the legs had nothing.

2015-01-27 12:23 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by GoFaster

Admitting I haven't gone to look - is the new version of GC out that includes swim and run?

Autozero for a PT - where do I do this in my 910?  I took a look last night while on the trainer, but only found the Calibrate screen, which I do before every ride.

Not yet, end of month they should be releasing the release candidates. Autozero will occur when you let the wheel spin with no power applied.

But I am assuming that won't be accurate on a trainer unless the wheel can freewheel (i.e. no press on force)

2015-01-27 12:24 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by axteraa

Did another trainer workout this morning with both PMs, VO2max this time.  The two PMs agreed within a couple of watts until I got into the higher power stuff at which point the PT was about 10-15w lower.  So, since I have the day off work due to snowmageddon, I started looking even more closely at the numbers and what I see is that the data from the PT will have 1 or 2 data points suddenly lower than those around it while the P2Max has consistent ones.  Here is an example of a 15s section

P2M    PT
359    368
358    368
362    318 <-
350    315 <-
338    338
337    346
344    357
348    325
350    326
350    328
344    346
344    346
344    346
341    329
343    312 <-
345    312 <-
338    350
346    337 - Avg

If I change those 31x numbers from the PT to 34x then the average for the PT goes up to 344.  So, I'm just going to stop torturing myself, say the PT is at fault and go with the bigger numbers.  

 

All's I know with these numbers getting thrown around here and on FB is I'm gonna get crushed at Alcatraz   



2015-01-27 12:27 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by ChrisM

All's I know with these numbers getting thrown around here and on FB is I'm gonna get crushed at Alcatraz   

Fred is switching to team Canada and part of our strategy is shock and awe...  

2015-01-27 12:45 PM
in reply to: 0

Master
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, California
Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by axteraa

Did another trainer workout this morning with both PMs, VO2max this time.  The two PMs agreed within a couple of watts until I got into the higher power stuff at which point the PT was about 10-15w lower.  So, since I have the day off work due to snowmageddon, I started looking even more closely at the numbers and what I see is that the data from the PT will have 1 or 2 data points suddenly lower than those around it while the P2Max has consistent ones.  Here is an example of a 15s section

P2M    PT
359    368
358    368
362    318 <-
350    315 <-
338    338
337    346
344    357
348    325
350    326
350    328
344    346
344    346
344    346
341    329
343    312 <-
345    312 <-
338    350
346    337 - Avg

If I change those 31x numbers from the PT to 34x then the average for the PT goes up to 344.  So, I'm just going to stop torturing myself, say the PT is at fault and go with the bigger numbers.  

 

What's interesting about that sample is that even though at a glance the PT raises an eyebrow, they are both *really really* close in standard deviation.  Meaning the PT "lows" that you pointed out are offset by the higher end (~368).

P2M:
avg: 346.7
median: 344.5
stddev: 7.16

PT:
avg: 337
median: 337.5
stddev: 17.7

 

Although this is a small sample, it shows very similar accuracy.  With most folks using 3 second smoothing on the computer, the highs and lows of the PT won't make a difference.

 

EDIT: fixed my numbers... bad script   PT is slightly worse on deviation.



Edited by spudone 2015-01-27 12:51 PM
2015-01-27 12:49 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by spudone

What's interesting about that sample is that even though at a glance the PT raises an eyebrow, they are both *really really* close in standard deviation.  Meaning the PT "lows" that you pointed out are offset by the higher end (~368).

P2M:
avg: 328.5
median: 344.5
stddev: 79.8

PT:
avg: 319.3
median: 337.5
stddev: 79.2

 

Although this is a small sample, it shows very similar accuracy.  With most folks using 3 second smoothing on the computer, the highs and lows of the PT won't make a difference.

Ya, for sure!  I sat the two computers beside each other several times and the vast majority of the time I would have said they were reading the same (within a couple of watts).  It's only the overall AP and when I break it down to intervals that the differences show up.

2015-01-27 12:52 PM
in reply to: axteraa

Master
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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

I had an extra empty row where I pasted those numbers and it was throwing everything off.

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