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2015-02-06 8:09 AM
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Subject: RE: An Underpronator Wearing Running Shoes for Overpronation

Again, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

 

Everybody DOES hvae shoes that work for them. But you have to find that shoe by trial and error in the absence of solid scientifically based information. And yes, this can take years of trying MANY shoes before finding general types that work and those that don't.

You keep implying I say that I'm saying anyone can and should wear anything, which is the complete opposite of what I'm saying. What I am saying though, is that if you don't know by experience what works, try EVERYTHING, and don't narrow your search down as the shoe models recommend, because they are not based on any real science.

 

I have had many very close personal friends work in shoe stores growing up over the past 20 years, including one owner. I've been affiliated with running clubs everywhere I've lived, which is over 10 states over 25 years. I'm not making this up at all. Shoe salesclerks receive zero scientific training, but do get the brochures to memorize. Seriously, what training do you think these salespeople get in science from the stores? 

 

 

And yes, millions of people ARE getting duped, if that's what you want to call spending more money one shoes than you need to.Happens all the time, in many fields, like generic vs brand-name pharmacy. Nothing new or surprising here. And the placebo effect is strong in this field. Millions of the runners who run happily in their 'specially selected' shoes, would be just as well off other models and makes. 

 

I recommend trying the cheaper shoes first. If they work, great. Note how motion control and other specialty shoes tend to be the priciest of the bunch. I don't even think running shoes are a big cost, as they last so long, but it does make testing harder if every shoe you're buying is $120+. I was shocked in a good way when I found that the underbuilt big-box shoes for $30-35 ($19 on sale!) worked great for me, and I run a lot more than most triathletes.



Edited by yazmaster 2015-02-06 8:31 AM


2015-02-06 7:59 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: An Underpronator Wearing Running Shoes for Overpronation
Originally posted by yazmaster

Again, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

 

Everybody DOES hvae shoes that work for them. But you have to find that shoe by trial and error in the absence of solid scientifically based information. And yes, this can take years of trying MANY shoes before finding general types that work and those that don't.

You keep implying I say that I'm saying anyone can and should wear anything, which is the complete opposite of what I'm saying. What I am saying though, is that if you don't know by experience what works, try EVERYTHING, and don't narrow your search down as the shoe models recommend, because they are not based on any real science.

 

I have had many very close personal friends work in shoe stores growing up over the past 20 years, including one owner. I've been affiliated with running clubs everywhere I've lived, which is over 10 states over 25 years. I'm not making this up at all. Shoe salesclerks receive zero scientific training, but do get the brochures to memorize. Seriously, what training do you think these salespeople get in science from the stores? 

 

 

And yes, millions of people ARE getting duped, if that's what you want to call spending more money one shoes than you need to.Happens all the time, in many fields, like generic vs brand-name pharmacy. Nothing new or surprising here. And the placebo effect is strong in this field. Millions of the runners who run happily in their 'specially selected' shoes, would be just as well off other models and makes. 

 

I recommend trying the cheaper shoes first. If they work, great. Note how motion control and other specialty shoes tend to be the priciest of the bunch. I don't even think running shoes are a big cost, as they last so long, but it does make testing harder if every shoe you're buying is $120+. I was shocked in a good way when I found that the underbuilt big-box shoes for $30-35 ($19 on sale!) worked great for me, and I run a lot more than most triathletes.




You would be a hoot if you worked selling shoes.

Customer: Every time I try to run I go a few weeks and then get hurt. Can you held me find some shoes that will allow me to run without getting hurt?

You: No, finding the right shoes is just trial and error and may take years.

Customer: Are you saying you can't help me? Your store sells lots of different shoes and you can't tell me which ones may help me run without hurting?

You: That's correct. There is no science behind any of these shoes. It's all marketing hype.


Of course that's not the way it works. Good running stores do help people get shoes that allow their customers to run without hurting. If that were not true the running store model would have died years ago.

There is a small percentage of people that could run in anything, maybe that's you. There are far more people with specialized needs. There are many running stores with very knowledgable people on staff. Some are highly trained in exercise physiology. Good running stores do not use a one size fits all approach, but analyze individual needs and make recommendations based on years of experience.

BTW, how much science do you think the bike fitter knows, or are they just using some glossy brochure for information? How much marketing hype is there in bikes? I personally know guys that would out perform many tribike riders while using mountain bikes. Does that mean tribikes are not worth the money?

I think you have confused some very incomplete studies as being what's valid while discarding the mountain of evidence that suggests people can be helped with getting shoes that will benefit them.
2015-02-06 8:57 PM
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Subject: RE: An Underpronator Wearing Running Shoes for Overpronation

You can say what you want - you're consistently mischaracterizing what I'm saying, so I can't help you there.

 

 I am all ears in terms of you pointing me toward some real evidence as you're saying they have in terms of hard science. If you come up with some, I will be more than glad to change my tune. 

 

I'd also love while you're at it to show the hard evidence that running stores really are helping reduce injuries with their shoe selections, as opposed to placebo effect. I am not aware of any shoe models that have been proven to reduce injury consistently, nor has it been shown in hard studies that motion control shoes help.



Edited by yazmaster 2015-02-06 9:00 PM
2015-02-06 11:00 PM
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Subject: RE: An Underpronator Wearing Running Shoes for Overpronation
These so-called "hard" studies have yet to be presented by you. What are your qualifications to even know if the studies are valid? Are you seriously claiming motion control/stability shoes don't help anyone? If so, you might want to inform podiatrists who prescribe such shoes they are victims of marketing hype. While you're at it tell my son the stability shoes that allow him to run - as recommended by a running shoes store - are just a placebo effect and that the neutral shoes that helped caused stress fractures are what he should really wear because there's no science behind stability shoes.
2015-02-06 11:10 PM
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Subject: RE: An Underpronator Wearing Running Shoes for Overpronation

I'm not going to change your mind, you are clearly entitled to your opinion.

 

I'm not a shoe expert, and again, I'm saying I'll change my tune if there's good evidence to do so.

 

This is NOT an academic search I'm putting here - this is a 10 second google search the first 5 hits that come up, which is all is worth my time for all I've wasted on this topic here. Also note that the sources of these links posted are from peer-reviewed scientific journals (I didn't link directly to those articles.

 

Enjoy.

 

Read and enjoy for starters"

Google "do motion control shoes reduce injury"

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/phys-ed-do-certain-types-of-sneakers-prevent-injuries/

 

" In 2008, an influential review article in The British Journal of Sports Medicine concluded that sports-medicine specialists should stop recommending running shoes based on a person’s foot posture. No scientific evidence supported the practice, the authors pointed out, concluding that “the true effects” of today’s running shoes “on the health and performance of distance runners remain unknown.”"

 

 

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/01/why-running-shoes-do-not-work-looking.html

    Looking at the second premise, do shoes even modify pronation? Motion control shoes are designed to decrease pronation through a variety of mechanisms. Most choose to insert a medial post or a similar device. In a study by Stacoff (2001), they tested several motion control shoe devices and found that they did not alter pronation and did not change the kinematics of the tibia or calcaneus bones either. Similarly, another study by Butler (2007) found that motion control shoes showed no difference in peak pronation when compared to cushioning shoes. Lastly, Dixon (2007) found similar results showing that motion control shoes did not reduce peak eversion (pronation) and didn’t change the concentration of pressure.

 

 

 

http://lifehacker.com/why-foot-motion-doesnt-contribute-to-running-injuries-593625102

 

new study published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine adds more fuel to the fire. This study took on 927 beginner runners and followed them for a year tracking injuries, location, shoe type and more. The result? Pronation doesn't seem to have an effect on injuries at all. 

 

 

http://www.toyourhealth.com/mpacms/tyh/article.php?id=1954

In another study evaluating the value of prescribing running shoes according to arch height, Ryan, et al., categorized 81 female runners as supinators, neutral or pronators, and then randomly assigned them to wear neutral, stability or motion-control running shoes. Again, the authors concluded that there was no correlation between foot type, running shoe use and the frequency of reported pain.

 

 

 It goes on, and on, and on.....it's not hard to find in the slightest. 

 



Edited by yazmaster 2015-02-06 11:13 PM
2015-02-07 9:29 AM
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Subject: RE: An Underpronator Wearing Running Shoes for Overpronation
Hate to break it to you but none of those say what you think they say. None are well thought out. At least one is just opinion.

What was shown is not everyone benefits. They certainly didn't show that no one benefits.

We are getting nowhere. You're convinced these half baked studies represent the facts. I'm more inclined to believe running shoe stores to a good job of fitting a variety of people with a vast range of needs into shoes that benefit these people. It's more of an art than a science and some are much better than others.


2015-02-07 11:04 AM
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Subject: RE: An Underpronator Wearing Running Shoes for Overpronation

Well, we do agree it's a lot more art than science. 

 

Those are all from peer-reviewed published sources, as well. Not just opinion, as you're claiming. No they're not perfect, but they're better than zero on the other side of the argument.



Edited by yazmaster 2015-02-07 11:05 AM
2015-02-07 5:03 PM
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Subject: RE: An Underpronator Wearing Running Shoes for Overpronation
Originally posted by yazmaster

I'm not going to change your mind, you are clearly entitled to your opinion.

 

I'm not a shoe expert, and again, I'm saying I'll change my tune if there's good evidence to do so.

 

This is NOT an academic search I'm putting here - this is a 10 second google search the first 5 hits that come up, which is all is worth my time for all I've wasted on this topic here. Also note that the sources of these links posted are from peer-reviewed scientific journals (I didn't link directly to those articles.

 

Enjoy.

 

Read and enjoy for starters"

Google "do motion control shoes reduce injury"

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/phys-ed-do-certain-types-of-sneakers-prevent-injuries/

 

" In 2008, an influential review article in The British Journal of Sports Medicine concluded that sports-medicine specialists should stop recommending running shoes based on a person’s foot posture. No scientific evidence supported the practice, the authors pointed out, concluding that “the true effects” of today’s running shoes “on the health and performance of distance runners remain unknown.”"

 

 

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/01/why-running-shoes-do-not-work-looking.html

    Looking at the second premise, do shoes even modify pronation? Motion control shoes are designed to decrease pronation through a variety of mechanisms. Most choose to insert a medial post or a similar device. In a study by Stacoff (2001), they tested several motion control shoe devices and found that they did not alter pronation and did not change the kinematics of the tibia or calcaneus bones either. Similarly, another study by Butler (2007) found that motion control shoes showed no difference in peak pronation when compared to cushioning shoes. Lastly, Dixon (2007) found similar results showing that motion control shoes did not reduce peak eversion (pronation) and didn’t change the concentration of pressure.

 

 

 

http://lifehacker.com/why-foot-motion-doesnt-contribute-to-running-injuries-593625102

 

new study published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine adds more fuel to the fire. This study took on 927 beginner runners and followed them for a year tracking injuries, location, shoe type and more. The result? Pronation doesn't seem to have an effect on injuries at all. 

 

 

http://www.toyourhealth.com/mpacms/tyh/article.php?id=1954

In another study evaluating the value of prescribing running shoes according to arch height, Ryan, et al., categorized 81 female runners as supinators, neutral or pronators, and then randomly assigned them to wear neutral, stability or motion-control running shoes. Again, the authors concluded that there was no correlation between foot type, running shoe use and the frequency of reported pain.

 

 

 It goes on, and on, and on.....it's not hard to find in the slightest. 

 



Thanks - overall I find this pretty convincing. I had heard of some of these studies before but it appears that shoe companies and shoe designers are more clueless than I realized. My feet are quite flat so when I started running I was told I should wear motion control shoes. However, I discovered a particular brand of stability shoe that feels good and seems to work well so I just keep getting the new model. It makes me wonder if there is really any need for motion control shoes.
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