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2015-03-02 3:06 PM


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Subject: swimming may just kill me
Question #1 - Why does a 50+ guy take up tri training?
Good question, Well, my wife and adult daughter jumped in last year and did an Olympic after 6 months of training and enthusiastically said "come and join us!". Sure, good family activity.

Run - trained for 3-4 weeks and knocked out a 10k in 59.33. I was pleased, because I'm not built like a runner. Running back, yes, (middle aged one) runner, no.

Bike - started 3 days a week on the stationary, after 2 months got a road bike and did 25 miles in 1:24. I was pleased.

Swim - I can swim, sort of. Went straight to a swim coach. My daughter was a college swimmer (easy part for her), so I went to her youth swim coach. Been in the pool 3-4 times per week for 3 months and still can't get past 50 m without a break. Form is much better, stroke is good for this level, getting the legs up, but I'm spent at the end of 50 meters. A month ago it was 25 meters, so it's improved but good gosh it sure is not an improvement commensurate with the effort I'm putting into it. I've been in the pool 19 out of the past 24 days, and not put in less than 500 m and up to 1200 m in 25's and 50's. I swim, I pull, I kick and I work. The frustration level on a scale on 1-10 is about 24 right now.

I can't see getting to 500 m straight anytime soon and 1500 m might as well be 1500 miles because both are unfathomable at this point Wife and daughter jump in and do a 2100 warm up. There is an 80 year old woman at te pool that swims at about 0.5 mph but can go for 40 minutes whereas I'm in the next lane looking for an oxygen mask after 50 m.

Question #2 - So is there a magic threshold you reach where the yardage takes off? If I only add 25 m per month, it will be a year and a half before I get to 500 m straight and then be 5 years before I get to 1500 m. Sorry, but I consider that an exercise in futility. I can't do much more than practice 3-4 hourz week, at least once with a coach.

At what point did you find your endurance take off?


2015-03-02 3:11 PM
in reply to: hatari

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me

One day, very soon, you will just keep swimming past 50M....and probably go 300-500.  You won't know how or why, you just will.  Believe it.

2015-03-02 3:20 PM
in reply to: #5097459

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
What left brain said.
2015-03-02 3:47 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Originally posted by Left Brain

One day, very soon, you will just keep swimming past 50M....and probably go 300-500.  You won't know how or why, you just will.  Believe it.




Oh I hope you are right! My only other solution is to grow webbed feet and gills.
2015-03-02 4:07 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Originally posted by Left Brain

One day, very soon, you will just keep swimming past 50M....and probably go 300-500.  You won't know how or why, you just will.  Believe it.




^^^^^^^Ditto^^^^^

I had the very same experience you are having. I was so embarrassed the first time I jumped in the pool for not being able to swim 25yds without clinging to the side of the pool and sucking for air. I started swimming last year on the first week of April and I was determined to beat the swim. Swimming at the Y 5 days a week it took me all of April to get to 50yds without stopping.(but still sucking for air) It took another 3 weeks to get to 75yds(but still sucking for air) and another 3 weeks to get to 100yds. I was so pleased with myself for getting to 100yds I remember calling my wife after the workout sharing my excitement with her. She promptly told me if I could swim 100yds I surely should be able to swim 200yds. Of course I thought she was crazy but she planted a seed ant it sprouted the next morning. I jumped in the pool and swam a couple of 100yd sets to warm up. I remember telling myself to be calm and to relax everything will fall into place. I pushed off the wall and swam a 300yd set without stopping and the only reason I did stop was because I was so excited that I messed up my breathing.


Like Left Brain said, you just have to believe. If you have been swimming 3 to 4 days a week for 3 months you should have the base fitness needed to get a 300 to 500yd set in.


What will really blow your mind is once you slay your dragon and swim a 500yd set or more, shortly after your going to decide to swim past 500yds just to see how far you can swim. And when you do you will shock yourself and swim a whole mile without stopping.

Just FYI 11 months ago I could barely swim 25yds. Today my average swim workout is 2000 to 3000yds 5 days a week. I am now that guy that I use to watch going back and forth for what seemed like forever while I was clinging to the side of the pool sucking for air. Keep at it and you will soon be that guy as well.
2015-03-02 4:15 PM
in reply to: sawyer1206

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
I agree as well. I'm 35 and started Tri's about 2.5 years ago. I was a GREAT swimmer in the past, like when I was 6 years old But I am always in and around water. So when I started it took 2 months to do 50 yards without stopping, like you. Then one day I swam 300 straight, nothing changed other than I just was able to do it. Within a month of that I was swimming up to 1.5 miles nonstop. Keep chugging away and one day it'll just work and you will feel great on that day.


2015-03-02 5:32 PM
in reply to: hatari

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me

Your ability (or inability) to swim past 50m has nothing to do with fitness, and probably not even form considering how long you have been working with a coach.  It likely has more to do with anxiety and comfort in the water.

2 pieces of general advice.

1.  Make sure you are exhaling under water consistently.  The last thing you want to do is hold your breath in between breaths.  Imagine trying to do that while running...where you only exhale and inhale for a split second...and only once every 3-4 seconds.  You would get extremely winded too in a very short time doing that.

2.  Try to swim AS SLOW AS POSSIBLE.  Like ridiculously slow.  If you swim a 1:00 50m now...purposely try to do it in 2:00.  Sounds strange, but this is just to help convince your brain that you will not drown while swimming and build on a relaxed breathing pattern.

The reason why the 80 year old can swim no stop forever...because she's convinced her brain that she won't drown.  Your brain doesn't trust you yet...so it's trying to override the process of your breathing and sapping the energy out of you.  Once your brain doesn't need to worry about self preservation...you'll be able to swim much harder and longer.

2015-03-02 6:54 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Originally posted by Jason N

Your ability (or inability) to swim past 50m has nothing to do with fitness, and probably not even form considering how long you have been working with a coach.  It likely has more to do with anxiety and comfort in the water.

2 pieces of general advice.

1.  Make sure you are exhaling under water consistently.  The last thing you want to do is hold your breath in between breaths.  Imagine trying to do that while running...where you only exhale and inhale for a split second...and only once every 3-4 seconds.  You would get extremely winded too in a very short time doing that.

2.  Try to swim AS SLOW AS POSSIBLE.  Like ridiculously slow.  If you swim a 1:00 50m now...purposely try to do it in 2:00.  Sounds strange, but this is just to help convince your brain that you will not drown while swimming and build on a relaxed breathing pattern.

The reason why the 80 year old can swim no stop forever...because she's convinced her brain that she won't drown.  Your brain doesn't trust you yet...so it's trying to override the process of your breathing and sapping the energy out of you.  Once your brain doesn't need to worry about self preservation...you'll be able to swim much harder and longer.




I love this piece of advice, swimming is very much affected by these technicalities of survival/drowning/breathing.
I've been swimming on and off my whole life - last vacation snorkeling in choppy waters I took some water in and my brain went into panic mode - while I was simultaneously laughing at myself saying, "dude, relax, you're not drowning you can swim!" It's such a phenomenon
2015-03-02 7:06 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me

I agree with Jason.  Slow down.  Find a nice slow rhythm that allows you to breathe and exhale in a comfortable fashion.  It sounds like you're a) going faster than you should and fighting the water a bit and/or b) not breathing/exhaling in a comfortable fashion and/or c) kicking too hard.  Don't overthink it... find a comfortable breathing, stroke and kick rhythm and keep turning at each wall.  Btw, I started in the same place you did a couple of years ago.  I'm 55 now ... you can do it.

2015-03-02 7:56 PM
in reply to: JoelO


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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
There is something fundamentally wrong with your technique, considering you have a coach, swim 3 - 4 times a week and have done for 3 months yet can't make more than 50m without stopping. As others have said work on your breathing, you're probably holding your breath. Breath every 2 strokes as opposed to bi-laterally (at least to start with) and perhaps use paddles and pull buoy and possibly fins. That way it will easier for you to do 100, 200m without stopping and it will give you the confidence.
2015-03-02 9:12 PM
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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
I just had to reply on this.

I got hijacked into triathlon as well by my wife. I was 41 and had tried numerous times to learn how to swim properly (swim classes as a kid, swim classes in school, army and friends) and had pretty much given up on it, just accepted that I will not be able to swim more than about 50-70 meters - any stroke except back stroke.
So when she suggested we should try Tri I agreed but said let's not buy bikes until I can swim at least half the distance - thinking that's never gonna happen so I just very cleverly saved the money for the bikes and turned down Tri without her realizing

But eager as she was she googled and found some instructional videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97b6XIntfcc
Due to work it would be hard for me to go to classes, but we do have a 50m pool at my condo, so we could go down and swim at our own leisure. So I started. 3-4 times a week.
After 3 weeks there was absolutely no progress. I was still exhausted and gasping for air after about 70m.
But I had gone at this quite methodically, for while I was not really into the Tri idea, I was curious to see if my 5th serious attempt at learning to swim might work.
Like mentioned by someone else, I focused purely on technique, I tried to visualize what to do, I tried to focus on only one - two things at a time, and I swam as slow as I could. I remembered my old Karate coach told me that what you can do slow you can also do fast. And I knew whatever technique I had been using in the past to propel me to 70m was so wrong there was probably nothing in it worth saving. So I treated it as starting from scratch.

Swim slow, focus on technique. Breath every second stroke. Keep going.
On the 4th week, again like mentioned by someone before me, something magical happened. I could swim! I passed 70m and was in shock. But it got "worse" - I could just continue swimming! I passed 500m, 1000m, 1500m. Then I stopped, not of exhaustion, but because I had swam like forever.
Next thing I did was buy a tri watch
My pace after a couple of more weeks was 2.45min/100m Which is probably about the slowest you can swim and not sink. But I could go on and on and did 2km in the following week.

Half a year later I could do about 2.15-2.20min/100m.
Now a year and half later I am doing about 2.10min/100m average over long distance.
Still a lot of technique and fitness to work on. But I am now very comfortable in the water.

My advice. +1 on swim slow, +1 breathe every 2nd stroke, and don't try to improve what you were doing before. Forget all about that and try to learn from scratch.

I used the vid I linked to. There are 8 parts. Have a look if you like, although I think a coach is probably better than any vid.

You can and will do this!



Edited by knuta99 2015-03-02 9:15 PM


2015-03-02 9:22 PM
in reply to: #5097459

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Can you float?

I found thay learnin to float helped me tremendously.

I'd recommend total immersion.

That and swimming slower. It's not about more effort at this point.
2015-03-02 9:26 PM
in reply to: hatari

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Ignore trying to do any straight swims for the moment.
2015-03-03 1:33 AM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Very interesting. I never had any problems with that. I am painfully slow but I can go on forever, never had to stop because I was tired or out of breath. Boredom kicks in much earlier.
Maybe the difference is that I learnt to swim as a 5 year old?
Anyway, I have a friend who has exactly the same issues. I try to help but I really can't understand why. I will give her some on the advice I read here. Thanks!
2015-03-03 7:23 AM
in reply to: hatari


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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Certainly this gives me hope.
1.) I am now comfortable in the water, which I wasn't the case the first month. 2.) I'm sure I must be swimming too fast for my current skill level, but having touble trying to "slow it down". 3.) thanks for the video link, I've actually watched them and got tips that have helped over the last few weeks. The swim "downhill" helped raise my legs. My swim coach is at odds with the relaxed hand and fingers.

I can pull 100 m with a swim buoy, so that is progress. Legs do tire me out, though they are calming down. I HATE, the kickboard. My neck is not flexible enough to keep my head out of the water using it.

I was hoping that there is a threshold that once you bust through things get going, and am encouraged that others found progress intimidating at first. I think thta is a good description of the challenge - intimidating because water is a foreign element for those not raised around water. I'm looking forward to that session where I can just "keep going".

Thanks to all, and I'm open to any other thoughts.
2015-03-03 9:04 AM
in reply to: hatari

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Good advice already given. I'll add what worked for me. I decided to stop trying to swim a certain distance. Instead, I found a slow, easy pace (just a little easier than long run effort), settled in, and swam for a set time. By not focusing on how far I could go, I was able to relax and let my body just swim, and I was able to swim for an hour. It was slow, but I wasn't gasping for breath and it was a big breakthrough for me.


2015-03-03 9:57 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Originally posted by Jason N

Your ability (or inability) to swim past 50m has nothing to do with fitness, and probably not even form considering how long you have been working with a coach.  It likely has more to do with anxiety and comfort in the water.

2 pieces of general advice.

1.  Make sure you are exhaling under water consistently.  The last thing you want to do is hold your breath in between breaths.  Imagine trying to do that while running...where you only exhale and inhale for a split second...and only once every 3-4 seconds.  You would get extremely winded too in a very short time doing that.

2.  Try to swim AS SLOW AS POSSIBLE.  Like ridiculously slow.  If you swim a 1:00 50m now...purposely try to do it in 2:00.  Sounds strange, but this is just to help convince your brain that you will not drown while swimming and build on a relaxed breathing pattern.

The reason why the 80 year old can swim no stop forever...because she's convinced her brain that she won't drown.  Your brain doesn't trust you yet...so it's trying to override the process of your breathing and sapping the energy out of you.  Once your brain doesn't need to worry about self preservation...you'll be able to swim much harder and longer.




THIS!
2015-03-03 9:57 AM
in reply to: hatari


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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me

There is definitely a 'threshold' where you go from near-drowning to 'no problem!" even for long distances, and it's actually a pretty easy threshold to get to. 

 

The key as mentioned above is to SLOW DOWN and to focus on getting comfortable in the water. You do need enough fitness in your arms/core to keep going, but it's pretty low level once you get the body flotation right so you're not fighting the water. You should also not be relying on your kick at all to keep your legs up - if you're burning tons of gas kicking like mad to keep your body flat, you're doing it wrong. 

 

Once you don't feel intimidated by the prospect of swimming 1000+ at a very comfortable pace, then the much harder issue of getting faster comes up - everyone struggles with that one endlessly compared to this current problem.

2015-03-03 11:48 AM
in reply to: hatari


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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Originally posted by hatari

Certainly this gives me hope.
2.) I'm sure I must be swimming too fast for my current skill level, but having touble trying to "slow it down".


Think of it as finding you walking swim pace. Rather than running.
2015-03-03 2:10 PM
in reply to: hatari

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
2015-03-03 3:06 PM
in reply to: hatari

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Swimming is forward floating.

Watch the video series linked to see if it adds any perspective to what your coach has already showed you.

Teachign kids is different than teaching adults too because kids learn differently. While your daughter is successful and may have had a great coach, it may not be the coach for you.

Don't give up.


2015-03-03 3:51 PM
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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
I have come to the conclusion that swimming can be a very individual thing, for us non-fish. You mentioned your build, and I would be curious to know your basic stats, such as body weight, height, etc. Are you athletic build vs heavier or lighter. Are your legs thick compared to your upper body. Do you have good upper body strength. Do you have good core strength. How long has it been since you really worked out. Your "physical passport" as it were. Not trying to pry this out of you, just wondering if your coaches have taken all this into consideration, or are they just treating you like a swim team kid.

My experience has been that the local swim team/club is focused on speed, power. Those kids can kick my without trying. However, they are lighter, younger, stronger and just suck in general (just kidding, mostly). They have a certain training template that it sounds like you're being jammed into. Especially that comment about not agreeing with relaxed, spread fingers. That sounds like a red flag, IMHO. I went to the local swim club, which don't get me wrong, was a very amazing experience, Olympians came from there, but it just wasn't for me.

I would be interested in seeing how you responded to a "Total Immersion" workshop, or something similar. Totally different philosophy about how to learn to swim. Breaks it down into basic core skills that you probably wouldn't think of. For example: balance (fore and aft, and side to side), and streamlining (spine/body alignment, swimming "in the tube", etc.).

I see this everyday in the pool I go to. Older guys like us, but body shapes are, well not optimal. Legs dragging damn near on the bottom. Stroking like hell and not getting anywhere. (And baggy shorts!) Having trouble doing a lap or two continuous. This was me a couple of years ago. Now don't get me wrong, again I'm no fish, I do 2 min 100's continuous on a good day, but I can swim 2,000m workouts. I attribute this to "Total Immersion", first of all, for getting me to slow WAY down, take the whole swim apart, and work on my balance and streamlining before trying to add any power to a stroke.

My legs still drag down a bit, but nowhere near as bad as when I first started. Next you just have to read up on, and try lots of different stuff. I just experimented with lots of different techniques, and skill sets until I saw something change, as in swimming taking place. For example, I experimented with various "superman" drills, until I found the best body position, for me. Then I did kick drills in this position, without a board, alternating which side I took a stroke and breathed on (only stroke to breath). This taught me which flutter kick was the best for me. Then I would do pull buoy sets, which taught me how to stroke when my legs were "quiet". Then I would do a swim set and focus on doing the exact same kick and pull, only together. Try and find the technique or tool that lets you feel the correct swim, then work to hold that feeling with whole swim.

It takes a lot of time and effort but in the end, it is very rewarding, knowing you are at least competent in the water, even if considered slow by fish standards.

Lots of other add-ins. I started strength training again. This really helped in having the stamina to complete longer sets/workouts. I did lots of core work. Strengthening the core made my entire body more "rigid" in the water (as in core tension), which aided in balance and streamlining (no "wobbly noodle" swimming). I totally over-hauled my diet (Matt Fitzgerald's "Making Race Weight").

And finally, do an open water swim, that's wetsuit legal. Yes I can hear the fish howling, but wetsuits, for us, are a godsend. It gets your legs and hips up, much like a pull buoy, and actually lets you swim halfway decent.

My goal is to do an Ironman. I just need to be a decent swimmer. With a wetsuit I can finish the swim in a reasonable time, and still be fresh for the bike and run. I'll never be a real swimmer, but that's not my goal. I'll never be a great cyclist, but that's not my goal either. I just have to do good in both, so I can get to the run and do great.

Stick with it. You'll get there if you're willing to experiment and see what actually works for you, not necessarily what all the experts say. I had five different coaches, learned a lot, no doubt, and I'm grateful, but in the end, I just had to take it apart, play with it, and re-assemble it into something that worked for me.

Edited by NewDiz 2015-03-03 3:57 PM
2015-03-04 1:07 PM
in reply to: lyttleviet

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
Originally posted by lyttleviet

Originally posted by Jason N

Your ability (or inability) to swim past 50m has nothing to do with fitness, and probably not even form considering how long you have been working with a coach.  It likely has more to do with anxiety and comfort in the water.

2 pieces of general advice.

1.  Make sure you are exhaling under water consistently.  The last thing you want to do is hold your breath in between breaths.  Imagine trying to do that while running...where you only exhale and inhale for a split second...and only once every 3-4 seconds.  You would get extremely winded too in a very short time doing that.

2.  Try to swim AS SLOW AS POSSIBLE.  Like ridiculously slow.  If you swim a 1:00 50m now...purposely try to do it in 2:00.  Sounds strange, but this is just to help convince your brain that you will not drown while swimming and build on a relaxed breathing pattern.

The reason why the 80 year old can swim no stop forever...because she's convinced her brain that she won't drown.  Your brain doesn't trust you yet...so it's trying to override the process of your breathing and sapping the energy out of you.  Once your brain doesn't need to worry about self preservation...you'll be able to swim much harder and longer.




THIS!


Jason N known his stuff.

Working on water confidence was a big thing for me. Going back to the pool and not swimming but spending 10 minutes or so treading water. And then also doing drills like the sinking drill. Take a good breath in the deep end and then sink. Let your breath out, almost all the way out and have a little look around under the water. Then in a controlled way surface and take a breath. Get you breath back and then try again. You get used to releasing your breath under water and having your face submerged. I thought I was good at those things but drilling it really helps when you get back to swimming.

I also used to try to do a run/walk style workout. 25 meters front crawl and then 25 breast stroke breathing every stroke. The 25 breast let me get my breath back for the next effort 25. Doing this I moved from doing about 50m to doing 2-300m in a session.


2015-03-05 12:02 AM
in reply to: badmo77a

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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
knuta - I've got you beat. When I stopped last summer I was doing 3:10/100 - yes, almost going backwards. In the sprint the buoy never got any closer, yet somehow mercifully I came to the end.

Starting in the pool again. Can do 50 yds at a time. I just have to trust yo'all when you say it will get better. I had a friend who is a swimmer watch me and she noted that my arms went down in the stroke instead of catching and pushing the water back. I think I'm getting it because I can feel in not only in my arms but in my shoulders.

Did some sprints - am signed up for an oly the end of August.
2015-03-05 8:06 AM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: swimming may just kill me
UPDATE,

Pulled 250 m and swam 100 m straight twice yesterday!

Still wasn't easy. I slowed down to what seems like snail-with-arthritis pace and was able to go further. First encouraging jump. Thank you for all the good advice.
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