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2015-03-11 11:29 AM
in reply to: Donto


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Subject: RE: Are these watts right?
I may try that. Thanks!


2015-04-18 8:54 PM
in reply to: #5098475


439
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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Are these watts right?
So I did my second FTP test today after a month of trainerroad and my new estimated FTP is 272. Just does not make sense. I have done several spin down calibrations over the last month so there's nothing else I can do. I should be a lot faster if that's my FTP. I guess I should forget about the number and just be happy with the improvement.
2015-04-19 5:34 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Are these watts right?
Originally posted by mchadcota2

So I did my second FTP test today after a month of trainerroad and my new estimated FTP is 272. Just does not make sense. I have done several spin down calibrations over the last month so there's nothing else I can do. I should be a lot faster if that's my FTP. I guess I should forget about the number and just be happy with the improvement.


what duration did you do and what were the watts for that duration ?
2015-04-19 7:33 AM
in reply to: #5109164


439
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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Are these watts right?
I did the 8 min test. So two 8 min intervals with 10 min between. The first interval was 314 and second was 291.
2015-04-19 8:08 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Are these watts right?
Originally posted by mchadcota2

I did the 8 min test. So two 8 min intervals with 10 min between. The first interval was 314 and second was 291.


that test is a pretty bad way to estimate ftp, but a person with an ftp of 272 could certainly do better than that on the 2nd interval with that much rest.


Edited by marcag 2015-04-19 8:18 AM
2015-04-19 9:05 AM
in reply to: #5097971


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Are these watts right?
Shouldn't trainerroad say in the description of the 8 min test that "this is not a good way to measure FTP". They act like its a good estimate.


2015-04-19 9:31 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Are these watts right?

FTP is simply the max power you can hold for one hour.  The further away from one hour, the less reliable and realistic the test.  8 minutes is nowhere near 60 minutes.  Anyone can be a stud for 8 minutes.  This is why I put very little stock in FTP numbers, especially for HIM and IM racing.  People take a number they got from an 8' test and then try to extrapolate that out for pacing purposes to a 112 mile bike ride that could take 5-7 hours.

My guess is that you have one of the KICKRs that's reading high.  If it's 5-10% off then you're talking about your 8' FTP being more like 250.  I take it you do not own another power meter to compare?

Wahoo just released a new beta firmware that supposedly solves some of the KICKR reading high problems.  This was posted on ST last week:

OK, First we just wanted to say sorry for being a little quiet in here we had a lot of stuff in the works and attacking KICKR firmware from many different angles at the moment. We have been running a lot of closed beta testing and 100's of hours of robot testing, we really wanted to wait until we had the full picture before letting everyone here know. 

Below are some details on our public (slowtwitch) beta of our new firmware. You can either try it now or wait a couple days until we push it live. 

We understand that the most important factor for people using power meters outside is to have consistency. The ability for KICKR to be driven from a 3rd party power meter should solve this, just keep in mind that zeroing those power meters as you warm up is critical to getting accurate reported power. When riding outside, a lot of power meters might auto zero when coasting or pedalling backwards, since you don't normally coast indoors make sure you follow your manufacturer's recommendation for zeroing. Note: some power meters do have temperature compensation and don't require zeroing in the same way, ie Stages. 

We would love for you to try out the new firmware and give us feedback. Initially it would be great if you could just update the firmware, do a spin down and compare the results to your power meter, ie don't link you power meter to the KICKR, we would love to hear how the raw numbers look. 


What’s in the new firmware? 

a) Applied temperature compensation to the power from the friction (1), this friction decreases as the KICKR warms up. We used thousands of spindown results from users around the world to help tweak this formula. 
b) Updated our spindown calculations based on 100s of hours of dyno (robot) testing. We found particularly at the fringes, high and low spindown times we had room for improvement. 
c) Added the ability to source power reading from a 3rd party power meter. This will allow the 3rd party power meter to essentially drive the KICKR's brake. 

In our initial roll out we have seen improved results for users just from a) and b

Getting KICKR Firmware v1.3.32 (will be 1.4.0 at release) 


Currently you need the iOS Wahoo Fitness app to link (c) a 3rd party power meter, although once set you can go use the KICKR in another app. (until you power cycle the KICKR

- Download the Wahoo Fitness app (iOS
- Connect to the KICKR (Sensors -> KICKR
- Once connected tap the KICKR icon 6 times, it should show a list of beta firmware 
- Select v1.3.32, the password is "publicbeta" 


Configuring 3rd Party Power control 


- You will need to know the ANT+ ID of the 3rd Party Power meter 
- Connect to the KICKR (Sensors -> KICKR
- Once connected, if you have the correct firmware you will see 3 new options. 
1. ERG Mode Speed simulation (virtual speed @ 0% grade when using ERG
2. Cadence from ANT+ (steal your cadence from a nearby sensor - automatic if you use 3 below
3. Control w/ ANT+ Power Meter 
- Turn on Control w/ ANT+ Power Meter, you will see a new field 
- Enter your ANT+ Power meter ID. 
Here is a video of the setup, https://www.dropbox.com/...g30pi/Setup.mov?dl=0 
NOTE: If you only see 1, but not 2 and 3 then please contact our support. 
You can now start a workout, the Power icon should now have 2 arrows around in a circle (seen in the video), This icon will turn green when the KICKR is feeding power from your power meter. 

NOTE: iPhone 4S and ipad users will still see the old red dot on the power page, this is just a bug and will always be red. The new icon indicates the 3rd party power meter status. 


3rd Party Apps 


Over the next month we will give access to 3rd parties to set the ANT+ ID information, while PerfPro and now TrainerRoad have a version of the power matching we think all users will benefit from the latest firmware. 
If you have any questions, let us know and we will do our best to answer anything here. If anyone wants to speak to us directly, just email [email protected] and we will keep an eye out for questions. 

Thanks 
The Wahoo Team 

2015-04-19 9:32 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Are these watts right?
Originally posted by mchadcota2

Shouldn't trainerroad say in the description of the 8 min test that "this is not a good way to measure FTP". They act like its a good estimate.


they should say that.

Anyone training with power for a while will tell you that 8 minute tests don't correlate well with 60min tests.

At least do the 20min tests as suggest by others in this thread.
2015-04-19 10:26 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Are these watts right?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by mchadcota2 Shouldn't trainerroad say in the description of the 8 min test that "this is not a good way to measure FTP". They act like its a good estimate.
they should say that. Anyone training with power for a while will tell you that 8 minute tests don't correlate well with 60min tests. At least do the 20min tests as suggest by others in this thread.

The 20' test will certainly be better but it's still way off, IMO.  The 60' test sucks.  Did it one time and will never do it again.  I prefer the 2x20' (2' rest) test.

Thing is once you get some "FTP" number whether it's 8/20/40/60 minute test, the real trick is training with it for the distance required of your race.

A 20' test might be a real good predictor of power pacing in a sprint race.  It's probably not so good at pacing an IM, without the 4-6 training rides to back up the numbers.

So if the OP went out right now and rode 56 miles at 80-85% of that 272 FTP number my guess is he'd be fried.  Same for trying to ride 112 at 70% of that 272 number.

I'm veering off into kind of a separate discussion here but it's overall relevant to what we're talking about.  The numbers are a good base from which to start.  Problem is a lot of people take them as some gospel truth and go ride themselves into proverbial brick walls.

What I think the OP is facing is 1) his KICKR is reading high, and 2) the 8' test inflates the FTP number.  So his testing is giving him a number that is probably 20 watts or more on the high side.  It's good that he's questioning it.  Thing is absent another power meter for outdoor riding the FTP number is meaningless for racing and outdoor training purposes.  I'd suggest he downloads the new firmware for the KICKR and see what that does.  Then I'd suggest doing the 20' test.  See how the numbers start to shake out.

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