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2015-03-09 1:42 PM

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Seattle
Subject: Pacing

What do you guys think about a non-registered athlete jumping in and pacing someone for a portion of a race?I believe the rules at a minimum discourage this. Although I'm not sure how that works if a course is not closed.

But technicalities aside, do you feel this is cheating? 

 



2015-03-09 1:44 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Pacing
The rules don't "discourage" it-- they prohibit it. If someone is on the race course they need to be a registered runner/racer.

I have nothing against someone registering and racing/pacing with a friend.
2015-03-09 1:44 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Pacing
Unless you are doing a relay, triathlon is an individual sport, so I don't like it.
2015-03-09 1:45 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Pacing

Why not just register them? 

Since you asked, I wouldn't care....but I'm not "racing".  I suspect I'd be in the BIG minority, which is why I asked the above question.

2015-03-09 1:48 PM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: Pacing

Yeah. I am talking specifically about running, but same thing.

I watched this happen in my race over the past weekend. I had never given it much thought. But I passed this particular individual, who was clearly struggling mentally to keep pace and then her friend joined her for the middle 5 miles or so of a half marathon, getting her back on what I assumed was her projected pace and she ended up passing me.

I'm not exactly bitter (although she did knock me out of the top 10) but it bothered me a little bit because I know how beneficial it is to work with people during a race, letting someone else worry about the pacing. But I wasn't really sure of the general consensus. 

2015-03-09 1:49 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Pacing

Originally posted by Left Brain

Why not just register them? 

Since you asked, I wouldn't care....but I'm not "racing".  I suspect I'd be in the BIG minority, which is why I asked the above question.

That's what I wonder?

I'm guessing because they didn't think it was a big deal. But it allowed her to finish top ten in a relatively competitive race...so, when does it actually become a "big deal."



2015-03-09 2:01 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Pacing

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by Left Brain

Why not just register them? 

Since you asked, I wouldn't care....but I'm not "racing".  I suspect I'd be in the BIG minority, which is why I asked the above question.

That's what I wonder?

I'm guessing because they didn't think it was a big deal. But it allowed her to finish top ten in a relatively competitive race...so, when does it actually become a "big deal."

I think it's a big deal for everybody who is actually racing....and I'm not differentiating between those who are actually competitive and those who have no chance at being competitive.  If you are racing I can completely understand that it's a big deal, and it should be.

I'm not actually racing anymore so I really couldn't care less....it's just fun for me and I don't care who plays by the rules and who doesn't. I don't have to live with them.

2015-03-09 2:04 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Pacing

Originally posted by jennifer_runs The rules don't "discourage" it-- they prohibit it. If someone is on the race course they need to be a registered runner/racer. I have nothing against someone registering and racing/pacing with a friend.

I see it that way too. Depending on the situation I might care a lot or not much at all, but it's definitely against the rules.

2015-03-09 3:32 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Pacing

From website of said race:

Can I bring a pacer?
Because trail space is limited, to ensure that all racers have the best experience, pacers running without a bib are not allowed to minimize congestion. You are very welcome to run with a friend, but please have them register as well.

My opinion is that they did something that was specifically and expressly prohibited.  Shame on them.  Maybe a case of ignorance, maybe a case of rules don't apply to me.  Whatever, it was wrong and they should not make a habit out of it. 

2015-03-09 5:01 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed


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Subject: RE: Pacing
It's cheating to pace off a non-competitor. It's not cheating to pace off another competitor or an official pacer. Whether anyone will care, clearly one person does.
2015-03-09 5:50 PM
in reply to: ziggie204

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Subject: RE: Pacing
I am registered to assist in pacing a friend run an ultra. Imagine an unregistered clown trying that one in an ultra. It's pretty petty to do it "un-registered" in races that don't specify no? Least in my opinion


2015-03-09 6:47 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Pacing

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by Left Brain

Why not just register them? 

Since you asked, I wouldn't care....but I'm not "racing".  I suspect I'd be in the BIG minority, which is why I asked the above question.

That's what I wonder?

I'm guessing because they didn't think it was a big deal. But it allowed her to finish top ten in a relatively competitive race...so, when does it actually become a "big deal."

In that situation it would be a big deal to me.  At least one of the two had to know its wrong you would think.

2015-03-10 9:14 AM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Pacing

I don't like it, but I know plenty of people who do it without a second thought.  These same people also plan their weekend long runs to loop through race courses so they can bandit the gels and water though... two weeks ago a few of them did an entire HM complete with aid stations on the back end of their long run. I watched them cross the finish line and grab some fruit too. 

So yeah, pacers are like those guys.  Taking up valuable space on the course and actually adding to the cost of the race for every entrant. 

2015-03-11 4:04 AM
in reply to: Clempson

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Subject: RE: Pacing
If the person finishes top 10% I think it is a problem.
If he/she is slower than that I wouldn't care.
2015-03-11 7:14 AM
in reply to: knuta99

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Subject: RE: Pacing
I haven't had time to read all of the posts so sorry if this is redundant. I have no problem with someone using a race course that hasn't paid for the race because typically these courses take over parts of popular training courses. During my last Oly my friend planning on riding through and drafting off someone because the course was near his house and his usual training ride. It is illegal the other way around though.

3. Outside Assistance: No assistance other than that offered by race and medical officials may be used. Triathlons and duathlons are individual tests of fitness.
Penalty: Variable time penalty

http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/rulebook/most-common-v...
2015-03-11 1:29 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Pacing
In a triathlon: pretty well against the rules most of the time, and if not technically against the rules, I'd still look down on it.

In an ultra running event: happens all the time on portions of the run, but I'd check the rules,especially for those in front.


2015-03-11 3:06 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Pacing
Originally posted by Lupy

  • During my last Oly my friend planning on riding through and drafting off someone because the course was near his house and his usual training ride. It is illegal the other way around though.




  • While your friend did not offer assistance to a competitor, he/she may have put an athlete at risk... Someone drafting can rub wheels and cause a crash... (please don't tell me how great of a rider your friend is..) Someone not used to a drafter riding behind may become nervous ....

    The cynic in me wants to 'ask' if the friend was drafting off you? IF SO, then really, having a friend drafting, offering encouragement, pushing, would be 'outside assistance', at absolutely no cost. He/she cannot be penalized, and the racer in this situation can throw up his/her hands and claim innocence.... Either way, not 'in the spirit' of (the) sport.

    At minimum, it would P*** ME OFF to have an unregistered person drafting me while I raced in a non-draft race. I know that the rules of the road/law do not prohibit one from riding on a course during a race, or running in a road race, but a little common sense .....

    And , to be blunt, taking advantage of gels, water, food, etc, is a dickhead move.



    Edited by triosaurus 2015-03-11 3:08 PM
    2015-03-11 4:24 PM
    in reply to: triosaurus

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    Subject: RE: Pacing

    Originally posted by triosaurus
    Originally posted by Lupy . During my last Oly my friend planning on riding through and drafting off someone because the course was near his house and his usual training ride. It is illegal the other way around though.
    While your friend did not offer assistance to a competitor, he/she may have put an athlete at risk... Someone drafting can rub wheels and cause a crash... (please don't tell me how great of a rider your friend is..) Someone not used to a drafter riding behind may become nervous .... The cynic in me wants to 'ask' if the friend was drafting off you? IF SO, then really, having a friend drafting, offering encouragement, pushing, would be 'outside assistance', at absolutely no cost. He/she cannot be penalized, and the racer in this situation can throw up his/her hands and claim innocence.... Either way, not 'in the spirit' of (the) sport. At minimum, it would P*** ME OFF to have an unregistered person drafting me while I raced in a non-draft race. I know that the rules of the road/law do not prohibit one from riding on a course during a race, or running in a road race, but a little common sense ..... And , to be blunt, taking advantage of gels, water, food, etc, is a dickhead move.

    No doubt.  This would leave me angry and shaking my head. 

    2015-03-11 4:27 PM
    in reply to: 0

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    Subject: RE: Pacing

    Can you draft off someone who is not actually in the race on an open public street?

    Kinda like the tree that falls in the woods....if no one is around, does it make a sound?

    If it's a rider who is not in the race does he even exist?  And if he doesn't exist, how could it be drafting? 

    These things keep me up at night.



    Edited by Left Brain 2015-03-11 4:30 PM
    2015-03-11 4:52 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: Pacing
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Can you draft off someone who is not actually in the race on an open public street?

    Kinda like the tree that falls in the woods....if no one is around, does it make a sound?

    If it's a rider who is not in the race does he even exist?  And if he doesn't exist, how could it be drafting? 

    These things keep me up at night.



    http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/rulebook.aspx
    5.10 Position Fouls. In accordance with the Rules as set forth in this section, a participant is not permitted to position his bicycle in the proximity of another moving vehicle so as to benefit from reduced air resistance.

  • ..and if vehicle seems to imply motor vehicle:
  • b. Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle.

    In neither rule does it specify that the other vehicle/cyclists is a registered participant.

    To the original question: yeah, it would me off.
    If you happen to run on a race course and are therefore (unintentionally?) banditing, then don't take the aide and don't interact with the race. If you do, you are providing outside assistance or hindrance. The racer should have stopped at that point, asked the person to back off or self-DQed.
    2015-03-11 5:10 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: Pacing

    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Can you draft off someone who is not actually in the race on an open public street?

    Kinda like the tree that falls in the woods....if no one is around, does it make a sound?

    If it's a rider who is not in the race does he even exist?  And if he doesn't exist, how could it be drafting? 

    These things keep me up at night.

    If someone is an inch off my back wheel they exist and I do not like it.



    2015-03-11 8:19 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: Pacing
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Can you draft off someone who is not actually in the race on an open public street?

    Kinda like the tree that falls in the woods....if no one is around, does it make a sound?

    If it's a rider who is not in the race does he even exist?  And if he doesn't exist, how could it be drafting? 

    These things keep me up at night.




    Ima gonna Relax Don't Worry and Have a HomeBrew

    2015-03-11 9:12 PM
    in reply to: Clempson

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    Subject: RE: Pacing
    Originally posted by Clempson

    I don't like it, but I know plenty of people who do it without a second thought.  These same people also plan their weekend long runs to loop through race courses so they can bandit the gels and water though... two weeks ago a few of them did an entire HM complete with aid stations on the back end of their long run. I watched them cross the finish line and grab some fruit too. 

    t. 




    wow, i know races can get expensive but come on, thats just rediculous
    2015-03-12 5:12 PM
    in reply to: 0

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    Subject: RE: Pacing

    As many have said people jumping on and off the course can be a distraction for other participants.  They don't know who they are racing down to move up in the over all ranking and who is just a "pacer" or a "bandit".  They also don't know if that guy who just jumped ahead of them had a car drop him off to help him cut 25 minutes off his run or if he is just a warming up while he wait for his friend to come by or there to get a free sports drink so he doesn't have to carry his water belt for this run that day.  The only way to keep the race clean is to keep all the runners on the course and everyone else off the course.   The exception to this would be if the race could provide a way to mark pacers by providing a pacer's tee-shirt, vest, or hat that they are required to ware on the course.  To get the shirt/vest/hat they should be requiring to have their name listed on the runners entry and for liability purposes sign the same waiver as the runner.  To limit congestion there also should be designated portions of the the course where pacers are permitted and where they aren't. Anything short of that type of structure for pacers and I would be ticked off if someone was on the course that wasn't a registered participant.  If you have a race going through your neighborhood You know about it months before the race and can make other arrangements for you run/ride that day.  Race organizers are required to have event insurance and if some bandit on the course is involved in and accident then the lawyers and going to have a heyday.  The organizer has an event permit from the city which gives them the right to close the course to anyone who hasn't registered and signed their event waiver.   

    As a high school runner the pacing rules were very different.  We would be DQ's for wearing a watch.  Coaches could yell out our splits as we passed, but wearing a watch to get our splits was a violation to the anti-pacing rules that were in place.   So...after learning to pace myself for 13 years I still haven't got used to the idea of carrying electrical devises while racing.  Wrist watches to get you miles splits, ipods with music at set beats to time your cadence,  GPS watches to tell you your pace, Heart monitors to tell you your effort, power meters to tell you your pedal power, cadence meter to tell you your pedal cycles per minute, etc. all all forms of pacing.  I think that these electronic pacers give you a bigger advantage than a friend to pace you so I feel that it is more of a "cheat" to carry an electrical device (that are not in the off position) that to have a pacer run with you on the course.  I really don't think the sports officials are worried about monitoring the advantages that athletes receive from external sources for pacing or else they would ban the electric forms of pacing too.  I know some marathons ban the use of cell phones and ipods on the course because they are seen as a nuisance to other participants.  Pacers could fall into this category (as others have illustrated).   It is 3 times harder to pace a person that is running two wide with their pacer than it just pace the participant.   The nuisance alone is enough to keep the pacers out of the triathlons as stated in the official rules, but from a race director's stand point it really just comes down to the fact that it is pain get waivers from all the pacers so that you are covered for you liability of them being on the course and then coming up with a way to monitor the course with people coming on and offs all through out the course.   



    Edited by BlueBoy26 2015-03-12 5:14 PM
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