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Swim stroke rate
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 2015-03-17 8:31 AM |
Member 763   |  Subject: Swim stroke rateQuick question for all you swim experts... In terms of getting faster in the water, I know the first thing that I need to continue to improve on is form. My form is ok, not great, but I'm working on that. (On good days, I'm around 1:45 per 100 for long swims). Then, if I want to take the next step in terms of getting faster, is it all about stroke rate? In other words, more strokes per minutes would propel me faster right? I would think that combining proper form and a higher (sustainable) stroke rate is the recipe for going faster, right? Too many stoke per minute (ie. like sprinting) is a fool's errand because that's too much, but a higher sustainable stroke rate is what I thinking about. Am I right about that? Just wondering. Thanks, Brian ps. office coffee in styrofoam cups is just awful... |
| 2015-03-17 10:03 AM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
 Deep in the Heart of Texas | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate From my experience, somewhere there is a balance between stroke rate and stroke length, but it is tough to isolate with bad mechanics. Form is still the key - focus more on removing any lulls, pauses or drag spots and you will go faster. Pay particular attention to what happens with your form when taking a breath (head rising, hips falling, opposite arm dropping, under/over rotating, etc.). |
| 2015-03-17 10:48 AM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate At 1:45/100 you should not be worrying about stroke rate that much, you still have a long way to go on form and technique. Yes at some point you have to increase your stroke rate to go faster. For me I consciously have to increase my stroke rate to keep my 100 time under a 1:10. If I swam more this would become more of a norm and it would shift down. Ultimately your speed is effected by: drag- form efficiency of your stoke- technique turnover- how faster your moving your arms and legs while maintaining your technique and minimizing your drag. |
| 2015-03-17 11:57 AM in reply to: mike761 |
| 538 Brooklyn, New York | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate I have been using the wetronome under my cap to monitor my stroke rate. If you work out with it, you'll be able to find some things out. For me, I found where I can swim comfortably at fastest possible rate without sacrificing form or working too hard. I also found my rate where trying to swim faster at that rate takes my form and turns into COMPLETE shitola. Look at Mikes time, if I tried to do 1.10's I'd look like I was thrashing water and going nowhere. Working within my spm capabilities and slowly turning it up WHILE maintaining form has been my focus. For instance, I'll do interval work somewhere in between my too fast a pace spm and my easy all day spm pace: depending of length and intensity of planned workout of course. So, working and using a stroke rate feedback device can help. It comes along slowly, but it's all useless without proper form/technique |
| 2015-03-17 12:22 PM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
| 1660 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate At first it will seem like it's mostly stroke rate, as that will improve first.
But also improving at the same time will be your power per stroke. It's hard to quantify that in numbers so people tend to underestimate its importance in swimming, but if you improve your muscular endurance in swimming, you will be pulling significantly harder per stroke in addition to the boost in stroke rate.
Note how Olympic-level swimmers don't flail away at the water even at 1:00/100m paces - their pull power is immense so even with 'normal' stroke rate, they'll be flying. |
| 2015-03-17 12:44 PM in reply to: Hook'em |
New user 273 Manassas, Virginia | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Hook'em Yes yes yes yes this is exactly on point. From my experience, somewhere there is a balance between stroke rate and stroke length, but it is tough to isolate with bad mechanics. Form is still the key - focus more on removing any lulls, pauses or drag spots and you will go faster. Pay particular attention to what happens with your form when taking a breath (head rising, hips falling, opposite arm dropping, under/over rotating, etc.). At 1:45/100, you should be focusing on stroke mechanics rather than garbage yardage. Watch some Youtube videos, and maybe consider taking some private swim lessons until you're in a good spot. |
| 2015-03-17 12:54 PM in reply to: Dunn Right |
Champion 7036  Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Dunn Right Originally posted by Hook'em Yes yes yes yes this is exactly on point. At 1:45/100, you should be focusing on stroke mechanics rather than garbage yardage. Watch some Youtube videos, and maybe consider taking some private swim lessons until you're in a good spot. From my experience, somewhere there is a balance between stroke rate and stroke length, but it is tough to isolate with bad mechanics. Form is still the key - focus more on removing any lulls, pauses or drag spots and you will go faster. Pay particular attention to what happens with your form when taking a breath (head rising, hips falling, opposite arm dropping, under/over rotating, etc.). My coach has me swim shorter intervals where I can maintain good form until any changes are imprinted in my muscle memory. In my situation, that means starting out with a lot of 50's, then progressing to 100's, etc. It doesn't do any good to increase your distance or tempo unless you can maintain good form. Personally, I like to do a lot of decending sets where I start out slow and increase my tempo until I am going hard as I can on the last interval. Mark |
| 2015-03-17 1:32 PM in reply to: Dunn Right |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Dunn Right Originally posted by Hook'em Yes yes yes yes this is exactly on point. From my experience, somewhere there is a balance between stroke rate and stroke length, but it is tough to isolate with bad mechanics. Form is still the key - focus more on removing any lulls, pauses or drag spots and you will go faster. Pay particular attention to what happens with your form when taking a breath (head rising, hips falling, opposite arm dropping, under/over rotating, etc.). At 1:45/100, you should be focusing on stroke mechanics rather than garbage yardage. Watch some Youtube videos, and maybe consider taking some private swim lessons until you're in a good spot. Guys - totally agree, form and technique come first - and you're right, I have a ways to go there. but nonetheless, stroke rate will (hopefully!) become something that I'll need to work on at some point. (I really wish I had learned how to swim properly when I was a youngster, but alas, as a self-taught early 40s yo swimmer, I'm going in the right direction at least...forward!) Thanks everyone. |
| 2015-03-17 1:48 PM in reply to: TJHammer |
| Oakville | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by TJHammer I have been using the wetronome under my cap to monitor my stroke rate. If you work out with it, you'll be able to find some things out. For me, I found where I can swim comfortably at fastest possible rate without sacrificing form or working too hard. I also found my rate where trying to swim faster at that rate takes my form and turns into COMPLETE shitola. Look at Mikes time, if I tried to do 1.10's I'd look like I was thrashing water and going nowhere. Working within my spm capabilities and slowly turning it up WHILE maintaining form has been my focus. For instance, I'll do interval work somewhere in between my too fast a pace spm and my easy all day spm pace: depending of length and intensity of planned workout of course. So, working and using a stroke rate feedback device can help. It comes along slowly, but it's all useless without proper form/technique x2 I recently picked up a Tempo Trainer Pro and set the stroke rate at a slow and easy rate to get the "feel" of the stroke back. There is a ramp test on the swimsmooth website - http://www.swimsmooth.com/ramptest.html - where you slowly increase the stroke rate and keep track of the results to find your "sweet spot" rate. |
| 2015-03-17 1:56 PM in reply to: Scott71 |
| 538 Brooklyn, New York | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Scott71 Originally posted by TJHammer I have been using the wetronome under my cap to monitor my stroke rate. If you work out with it, you'll be able to find some things out. For me, I found where I can swim comfortably at fastest possible rate without sacrificing form or working too hard. I also found my rate where trying to swim faster at that rate takes my form and turns into COMPLETE shitola. Look at Mikes time, if I tried to do 1.10's I'd look like I was thrashing water and going nowhere. Working within my spm capabilities and slowly turning it up WHILE maintaining form has been my focus. For instance, I'll do interval work somewhere in between my too fast a pace spm and my easy all day spm pace: depending of length and intensity of planned workout of course. So, working and using a stroke rate feedback device can help. It comes along slowly, but it's all useless without proper form/technique x2 I recently picked up a Tempo Trainer Pro and set the stroke rate at a slow and easy rate to get the "feel" of the stroke back. There is a ramp test on the swimsmooth website - http://www.swimsmooth.com/ramptest.html - where you slowly increase the stroke rate and keep track of the results to find your "sweet spot" rate. Yeah...unfortunately it was a lot slower than I thought it'd be lol |
| 2015-03-18 8:50 AM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by LarchmontTri Originally posted by Dunn Right Originally posted by Hook'em Yes yes yes yes this is exactly on point. From my experience, somewhere there is a balance between stroke rate and stroke length, but it is tough to isolate with bad mechanics. Form is still the key - focus more on removing any lulls, pauses or drag spots and you will go faster. Pay particular attention to what happens with your form when taking a breath (head rising, hips falling, opposite arm dropping, under/over rotating, etc.). At 1:45/100, you should be focusing on stroke mechanics rather than garbage yardage. Watch some Youtube videos, and maybe consider taking some private swim lessons until you're in a good spot. Guys - totally agree, form and technique come first - and you're right, I have a ways to go there. but nonetheless, stroke rate will (hopefully!) become something that I'll need to work on at some point. (I really wish I had learned how to swim properly when I was a youngster, but alas, as a self-taught early 40s yo swimmer, I'm going in the right direction at least...forward!) Thanks everyone. quick follow-up from my swim session last night. I did watch some videos on proper stroke before I went and tried to incorporate what I saw. But I think I may have figured out what's going on with my semi-slow swim speed. I breathe on my left every 2 strokes (so no bilateral for me, though I'm incorporating some bilateral laps in my drills), and I think my biggest issue is the cycle time of my right arm. I think I'm gliding too much and my right arm isn't cycling as fast as it should be. My left arm seems to be ok speedwise. I tried to 'speed up' my right arm stroke just a bit to match the speed of the left arm stroke, and when I did my stroke seemed smoother. Everything seemed better (and more balanced) with that small adjustment. Not sure if my right arm is just lazy, not flexible and/or strong enough, but I think the slight delay in my right arm stroke is an issue for me. I'm sure I have other things to work on too, but will focus on trying to have a more consistent stroke rate with both my right and left arms. I'll never be fast in the water, but if I can shave some time off my 100 speed and get out of the swim leg less fatigued, then I'm good. Thanks everyone. |
| 2015-03-18 10:08 AM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by LarchmontTri Originally posted by LarchmontTri Originally posted by Dunn Right Originally posted by Hook'em Yes yes yes yes this is exactly on point. From my experience, somewhere there is a balance between stroke rate and stroke length, but it is tough to isolate with bad mechanics. Form is still the key - focus more on removing any lulls, pauses or drag spots and you will go faster. Pay particular attention to what happens with your form when taking a breath (head rising, hips falling, opposite arm dropping, under/over rotating, etc.). At 1:45/100, you should be focusing on stroke mechanics rather than garbage yardage. Watch some Youtube videos, and maybe consider taking some private swim lessons until you're in a good spot. Guys - totally agree, form and technique come first - and you're right, I have a ways to go there. but nonetheless, stroke rate will (hopefully!) become something that I'll need to work on at some point. (I really wish I had learned how to swim properly when I was a youngster, but alas, as a self-taught early 40s yo swimmer, I'm going in the right direction at least...forward!) Thanks everyone. quick follow-up from my swim session last night. I did watch some videos on proper stroke before I went and tried to incorporate what I saw. But I think I may have figured out what's going on with my semi-slow swim speed. I breathe on my left every 2 strokes (so no bilateral for me, though I'm incorporating some bilateral laps in my drills), and I think my biggest issue is the cycle time of my right arm. I think I'm gliding too much and my right arm isn't cycling as fast as it should be. My left arm seems to be ok speedwise. I tried to 'speed up' my right arm stroke just a bit to match the speed of the left arm stroke, and when I did my stroke seemed smoother. Everything seemed better (and more balanced) with that small adjustment. Not sure if my right arm is just lazy, not flexible and/or strong enough, but I think the slight delay in my right arm stroke is an issue for me. I'm sure I have other things to work on too, but will focus on trying to have a more consistent stroke rate with both my right and left arms. I'll never be fast in the water, but if I can shave some time off my 100 speed and get out of the swim leg less fatigued, then I'm good. Thanks everyone. Why are you gliding? Think of your two arms as if it were one large propeller. Neither arm ever stops, they are both in constant motion. Bilateral breathing is an obsession with triathletes that is only needed for sighting purposes and even then its over rated. I breath every stoke to my right, so every time my right arm pulls I take a breath. For all long distance swimming that's how I swim. When I am doing sprints 200 yards or less I may not breath every stroke but I am also doing sub 1:10/100 at that point. |
| 2015-03-18 10:25 AM in reply to: mike761 |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Why am I gliding? Not sure. Perhaps glide isn't a perfect word, but my stroke has a bit of a lull/glide just before my right arm begins its next stroke. I think it's fair to say that my stroke isn't textbook yet...but I'm working on it. |
| 2015-03-18 11:44 AM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by LarchmontTri Why am I gliding? Not sure. Perhaps glide isn't a perfect word, but my stroke has a bit of a lull/glide just before my right arm begins its next stroke. I think it's fair to say that my stroke isn't textbook yet...but I'm working on it. You sound like my son. I love watching the distance 500 to 1650 swims my kids do in competition. Some kids are gliders, others are white water generators and some in between. My son is a glider and definitely not a sprinter, where as my daughter is more of an in between type and definitely is a sprinter. Last competition the open girls 1000 finals event was 1-2 was a dead heat until the last 50. With similar turns/under waters, one girl was a glider and the other in constant motion, there was a distinct 2.5-3 strokes for one girl to 2 strokes for the glider girl. On the last 50 the glider changed her stroke to a faster rate and pulled away to win.My take is there's different strokes for different folks! |
| 2015-03-18 11:58 AM in reply to: Donto |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Donto Originally posted by LarchmontTri Why am I gliding? Not sure. Perhaps glide isn't a perfect word, but my stroke has a bit of a lull/glide just before my right arm begins its next stroke. I think it's fair to say that my stroke isn't textbook yet...but I'm working on it. You sound like my son. I love watching the distance 500 to 1650 swims my kids do in competition. Some kids are gliders, others are white water generators and some in between. My son is a glider and definitely not a sprinter, where as my daughter is more of an in between type and definitely is a sprinter. Last competition the open girls 1000 finals event was 1-2 was a dead heat until the last 50. With similar turns/under waters, one girl was a glider and the other in constant motion, there was a distinct 2.5-3 strokes for one girl to 2 strokes for the glider girl. On the last 50 the glider changed her stroke to a faster rate and pulled away to win.My take is there's different strokes for different folks! What you perceive as gliding is not really gliding, it's long efficient pull. There is no time during the stroke when the arms are not in motion, If the arms were stationary at some point during the stroke that would be a glide. Yes turnover rate and efficiency is different for each person because of factors like, arm length, hand size, strength, stroke efficiency, lung capacity. |
| 2015-03-18 10:56 PM in reply to: mike761 |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by LarchmontTri Why are you gliding? Think of your two arms as if it were one large propeller. Neither arm ever stops, they are both in constant motion. Bilateral breathing is an obsession with triathletes that is only needed for sighting purposes and even then its over rated. I breath every stoke to my right, so every time my right arm pulls I take a breath. For all long distance swimming that's how I swim. When I am doing sprints 200 yards or less I may not breath every stroke but I am also doing sub 1:10/100 at that point. Originally posted by LarchmontTri quick follow-up from my swim session last night. I did watch some videos on proper stroke before I went and tried to incorporate what I saw. But I think I may have figured out what's going on with my semi-slow swim speed. I breathe on my left every 2 strokes (so no bilateral for me, though I'm incorporating some bilateral laps in my drills), and I think my biggest issue is the cycle time of my right arm. I think I'm gliding too much and my right arm isn't cycling as fast as it should be. My left arm seems to be ok speedwise. I tried to 'speed up' my right arm stroke just a bit to match the speed of the left arm stroke, and when I did my stroke seemed smoother. Everything seemed better (and more balanced) with that small adjustment. Not sure if my right arm is just lazy, not flexible and/or strong enough, but I think the slight delay in my right arm stroke is an issue for me. I'm sure I have other things to work on too, but will focus on trying to have a more consistent stroke rate with both my right and left arms. I'll never be fast in the water, but if I can shave some time off my 100 speed and get out of the swim leg less fatigued, then I'm good. Thanks everyone. Originally posted by Dunn Right Guys - totally agree, form and technique come first - and you're right, I have a ways to go there. but nonetheless, stroke rate will (hopefully!) become something that I'll need to work on at some point. (I really wish I had learned how to swim properly when I was a youngster, but alas, as a self-taught early 40s yo swimmer, I'm going in the right direction at least...forward!) Thanks everyone. Originally posted by Hook'em Yes yes yes yes this is exactly on point. At 1:45/100, you should be focusing on stroke mechanics rather than garbage yardage. Watch some Youtube videos, and maybe consider taking some private swim lessons until you're in a good spot. From my experience, somewhere there is a balance between stroke rate and stroke length, but it is tough to isolate with bad mechanics. Form is still the key - focus more on removing any lulls, pauses or drag spots and you will go faster. Pay particular attention to what happens with your form when taking a breath (head rising, hips falling, opposite arm dropping, under/over rotating, etc.). Bilateral breathing isn't necessarily bad. Many flaws come from poor breathing technique and this gets amplified when it unbalances someone's stroke because they breath on one side. Even if your technique is sound, breathing every 2 strokes tends to allow overgliding because there's plenty of air at a low stroke rate. Once you pick up that stroke turnover, then sure - you can get more effort with more air. So I wouldn't say triathletes obsess over bi-lateral breathing, but there are a couple of common swimming issues that may lead them to it - more than just sighting. |
| 2015-03-19 8:33 AM in reply to: spudone |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by spudone Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by LarchmontTri Why are you gliding? Think of your two arms as if it were one large propeller. Neither arm ever stops, they are both in constant motion. Bilateral breathing is an obsession with triathletes that is only needed for sighting purposes and even then its over rated. I breath every stoke to my right, so every time my right arm pulls I take a breath. For all long distance swimming that's how I swim. When I am doing sprints 200 yards or less I may not breath every stroke but I am also doing sub 1:10/100 at that point. Originally posted by LarchmontTri quick follow-up from my swim session last night. I did watch some videos on proper stroke before I went and tried to incorporate what I saw. But I think I may have figured out what's going on with my semi-slow swim speed. I breathe on my left every 2 strokes (so no bilateral for me, though I'm incorporating some bilateral laps in my drills), and I think my biggest issue is the cycle time of my right arm. I think I'm gliding too much and my right arm isn't cycling as fast as it should be. My left arm seems to be ok speedwise. I tried to 'speed up' my right arm stroke just a bit to match the speed of the left arm stroke, and when I did my stroke seemed smoother. Everything seemed better (and more balanced) with that small adjustment. Not sure if my right arm is just lazy, not flexible and/or strong enough, but I think the slight delay in my right arm stroke is an issue for me. I'm sure I have other things to work on too, but will focus on trying to have a more consistent stroke rate with both my right and left arms. I'll never be fast in the water, but if I can shave some time off my 100 speed and get out of the swim leg less fatigued, then I'm good. Thanks everyone. Originally posted by Dunn Right Guys - totally agree, form and technique come first - and you're right, I have a ways to go there. but nonetheless, stroke rate will (hopefully!) become something that I'll need to work on at some point. (I really wish I had learned how to swim properly when I was a youngster, but alas, as a self-taught early 40s yo swimmer, I'm going in the right direction at least...forward!) Thanks everyone. Originally posted by Hook'em Yes yes yes yes this is exactly on point. At 1:45/100, you should be focusing on stroke mechanics rather than garbage yardage. Watch some Youtube videos, and maybe consider taking some private swim lessons until you're in a good spot. From my experience, somewhere there is a balance between stroke rate and stroke length, but it is tough to isolate with bad mechanics. Form is still the key - focus more on removing any lulls, pauses or drag spots and you will go faster. Pay particular attention to what happens with your form when taking a breath (head rising, hips falling, opposite arm dropping, under/over rotating, etc.). Bilateral breathing isn't necessarily bad. Many flaws come from poor breathing technique and this gets amplified when it unbalances someone's stroke because they breath on one side. Even if your technique is sound, breathing every 2 strokes tends to allow overgliding because there's plenty of air at a low stroke rate. Once you pick up that stroke turnover, then sure - you can get more effort with more air. So I wouldn't say triathletes obsess over bi-lateral breathing, but there are a couple of common swimming issues that may lead them to it - more than just sighting. I didn't say bilateral breathing was a bad thing, just the triathletes obsess about it. In my opinion its very over rated, good to be able to breath to either side when you need to but to do all the time in not needed; or worry about bilateral breathing when your technique and form are bad. Most of the swimmers I grew up with would always breath to the right; because the right was where the lane line was to break up the spash/waves form other swimmers. |
| 2015-03-19 8:29 PM in reply to: mike761 |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate I didn't say bilateral breathing was a bad thing, just the triathletes obsess about it. In my opinion its very over rated, good to be able to breath to either side when you need to but to do all the time in not needed; or worry about bilateral breathing when your technique and form are bad. Most of the swimmers I grew up with would always breath to the right; because the right was where the lane line was to break up the spash/waves form other swimmers. It's not just about being able to breathe both sides, breathing bi-laterally means a more symmetrical swimming style, but most importantly, you end up rotating your body more. Most people don't rotate their body nearly enough, your belly button should be facing the pool wall and you should never be swimming flat as there is more drag, so you rotate from one side to another and you get your power from the rotation of the hips. I don't breathe bi-laterally, but I work hard to ensure I rotate, this does not happen naturally when you only breathe one side. |
| 2015-03-19 9:12 PM in reply to: zedzded |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by zedzded this does not happen naturally when you only breathe one side. Sure it does...and even if you don't breathe at all you can still rotate adequately on each stroke. It just needs to be practiced. |
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